Shawn Chester was a prince of Las Vegas. When I was in my 20’s his name was like a magic word in sin city. As Steve Wynn’s right hand for all nightlife, he opened some of the biggest clubs in the world–putting him in the crosshairs of Russian and Chinese bosses. In the first 20 minutes of the podcast he tells an unbelievable story of a forced initiation/kidnapping which defies everything we believe is possible. To behold that this same man I knew then is now one of the most strongly committed keepers of the Ayahuasca path, is a testament that anything is possible with Spirit. We talk at length about the need for focused strength in these troubling times, and I’m honored to know him as a brother.

AUBREY: Shawn Chester? 

SHAWN: Yes, sir.

AUBREY: That name used to be a magical word when I would go to Vegas as a late 20s. Not that much money in my pocket. Magic words like your name were important. And I was always really grateful we had a mutual friend, Dave Pappas, who also had a magic word as a name. And it made magical things happen in Vegas. I mean, you were deep in the belly of that beast. You were a legend. And the legend, as all legends had many stories. In your case, a lot of them were true. Stories of grandeur and stories of wow, that's fucking intense. It was like this mixture of awe, and nobody I talked to when I say your name, they all have like a little bit of a smile, and a little bit of a nod. So, tell us, I want to start this story from the beginning. Because obviously, I would have never expected that we would be right here on this podcast. You and your beautiful wife just served me Rape'. And you're there wearing your medicine necklaces and bracelets, because you've opened an ayahuasca center in Colombia. And I know that I was an integral part of that journey. But I want to start from the beginning to give people this arc of where you began, like how you got in. I know you started off in kind of a rough Louisiana Cajun boy, and then made your way to Vegas and had this kind of meteoric rise to a very powerful position in Vegas. And then from there, we'll talk about the transition. But why don't you tell us the story about how you got into your former life?

SHAWN: Well, I enjoyed parts of Vegas as a young guy. 

AUBREY: If you didn't enjoy parts of Vegas as a young guy, I don't know if we're friends. Like some part of you needs to be able to go a little bit dark for us to get along.

SHAWN: Yeah. So, I started in Vegas with our mutual friend, Dave Pappas. And Dave Pappas and I became friends, in an awkward moment. We almost went head to head in a dark place, and we decided it'd be much easier to be allies than enemies. So Dave was working in the casinos, so I was around that quite a bit. And then I started in the nightlife, and I opened a nightclub in the Bellagio as a host. I found a niche for me with guests, and my job was to take these guests and show them the time of their life for their period of time that they were there. 

AUBREY: What was that club called in the Bellagio? 

SHAWN: Light. 

AUBREY: Light in the Bellagio, for anybody who has that old school Vegas history. We'll bring people, we'll give them the names, we'll tell them where they've been, and the integral part that you played in that.

SHAWN: Light kicked it off. I think that was the first real high end bottle service type club, small. But I think that's where everything opened up.

AUBREY: And pretty soon after you'd open that you got the attention of Steve Wynn. 

SHAWN: Yes, yeah. 

AUBREY: And so, tell us about how that went. And we're going to get into some interesting stories about that path...

SHAWN: Steve Wynn was a visionary- is a visionary. He saw that there was more to this business than just the nightlife. And we attracted customers, high end customers from around the world that wanted a very personal experience. The entertainment, the nightlife, the hosting, and really taking people and showing them the time of their life. We built a beautiful nightclub inside of The Wynn called Tryst. 

AUBREY: How much of a part of that, of the building of that were you involved in? Because I know you get deep into the design, you get deep into the entire experience. Were you already doing that at the point of Tryst?

SHAWN: No, I just really got into it with Tryst. I think I had, as my evolution went, I had a much better understanding of where the comfort zone was for the customer. Learning how to make it a full night for their experience there, whether it was the height of the booths, the material, adjusting the lighting, so the place could still be dark, but you could still see each other. Victor Dre had a lot to do with that, he was very good with design. We changed all the lighting to amber lighting. I think we were the first ones that way, even when the place was dark, you could still see the facial expressions on people. So, I learned a lot from everyone above me. And I just picked up a little as I went. And then I guess when it went to another level was when Steve Wynn asked me if I wanted to go do the same thing in Macau, in China.

AUBREY: Did you have anything to do with Excess? Because that was in Encore as well.

SHAWN: So, I was in Macau, China, doing the same thing, opening a nightclub in Macau. And at that time, we were also designing Excess. So, we were doing a little bit of both.

AUBREY: Tryst and Excess, they set like all the records for clubs worldwide, right? I mean, still to this day, is anybody fucking with those clubs as far as like--

SHAWN: We were the first ones that went to actually having million dollar nights when other clubs were hoping to get to a hundred thousand. So, we were doing record numbers.

AUBREY: And that changed the landscape of Vegas a bit as well, because those are significant numbers.

SHAWN: It's a hard act to follow.

AUBREY: Yeah. And plus all of the ancillary revenue, everybody else who's coming in for the club, staying in the hotel to get in the club, all of these different activities.

SHAWN: Our revenue became comparable to international marketing, and international marketing in Vegas is the money. That's where all the big profit is for the casinos. And we started beating the profit of international marketing, meaning international gambling. So, our club revenue profits were better than the gaming profits.

AUBREY: That's a big deal. I mean, Vegas, of all the places, everywhere has kind of this interesting vibe about them. And when I was partying as much as I was back then, you start to learn what matters in a different place. Like LA, it just mattered who you knew. And if you had a name of some sort, that was the magic. In Miami, it was how good looking you were basically. That was the idea. And in Vegas, it was like, it was about the green. It was about the money. I mean, obviously, all of those other things matter as well. But it really was a very simple system. That system was money is king.

SHAWN: Yeah, that's when the tables became 20,000 a piece just to sit down. We had customers spending 100,000, then 200,000. And it kind of became a competition amongst customers, who would be the biggest customer? Who would spend the most? And we helped them along that way.

AUBREY: I know you did. And so for me, I didn't have anywhere near that money. And you and Dave would, I didn't have much to offer but me and David became friends. It was pretty remarkable actually. I was out there, entertaining some clients. I was in investment banking at that point. And I had some clients that I was out there with, and he saw me like a young guy. I think he just recognized that I was doing what he would do if he was my age, and he appreciated that. He somehow caught me and he started a conversation. And he ended up, he had some kind of comp tab for a basketball player. I think it was, I don't know, Elton Brand or somebody like that. He had a comp tab and he's like, "Look, I got this comp tab. I don't think he's going to use it. You want to go out and use it with me?" And I was like, "Yeah! Sure." So, we just blew, I don't know how much, five, ten grand in the most obscene ways possible. And that was like my first intro, holy shit, what you can do in Vegas is unbelievable.

SHAWN: Dave has a big heart. Dave always would find people he liked. And even though we were dealing with the money, we still enjoyed good company. And we wanted guys like us, and we wanted to be around guys like us and people. We like to enjoy ourselves also. We were able to have fun at the same time. So, we could do our business and still have a good time and meet good people. And I did, I met a lot of great people.

AUBREY: Yeah. So, you were the consummate gentleman, always like they're taking care of people. But you would also sometimes go fucking heart. And this is where the dual reputation of Shawn Chester developed was, yeah, he fucking handles his business, he's on top of everything. He's got everything dialed, under control, he can open any door, do anything, he's got your back. And however, he may continue. He may drop you off at your hotel, and he may continue, and you may not hear from him for a day.

SHAWN: Once we put the guests to sleep, then we'd get started. Our first scare came at 4 a.m. Maybe second. But yeah, we like to have a good time too and the guests like that. So we would take the guests, it was nice to have them at the Wynn, and it was nice to show them a good time in our clubs. But if you really want to show someone a good time, you take them with you as your friend. So we developed a lot of friendships. And we would take these guests to the afterhours and the after afterhours. And then one after that. 

AUBREY: The neverending train that Vegas offers. Also the service that, if you're taking somebody out on a night of debauchery, and you're the most debaucherous, well, they don't feel so bad about themselves. Well, relatively. "I mean, I didn't go that hard. I mean, I went to bed at 10 a.m."

SHAWN: That's pretty early. We made sure we brought people with us, we always had helpers, security. So, we would bring our own hosts to keep an eye on us so we can have a good time with our customers or with our guests and friends.

AUBREY: I've talked to some people now who've kind of settled into the Vegas scene. And they talk about the era where this was happening. And this was a little bit like, because these clubs were new, and because this whole phenomenon was new, referring to it a little bit like the Wild West. Things were wild back then, it was crazy. So what was that like? What were some of these experiences that were possible then that were just... Give people a window into that world.

SHAWN: We became a little more than just club guys. We worked with the hotels, we worked with the marketing departments, we worked with all the other businesses. So, people would want our business and they would treat us good everywhere we went. So, we were very well received in the restaurant, some of the other properties. That's where we would have our fun, other people's property. So, we'd do our business and ours and handle it in a gentlemanly way, and then burn down someone else's place. And they would thank you for coming. Monday morning, apology calls maybe. Sending cases of glasses to one place and maybe buying a chair in another. But we always tried to do damage control.

AUBREY: Yeah. Yeah. Are there any stories, and there's one story I want to get to in Macau and I want to talk about that whole story because that seemed like a very intense period. But just from the Vegas days, are there any stories that come to mind about a night in particular that was pretty wild? I mean, I don't know where you want to go. I've heard of UFC fighters waking up in your garage. I've heard a lot of different things that have happened these days. Is there any that you feel like would be worth sharing here?

SHAWN: I don't know if there's a particular story, but certainly, people would latch on as the night would go on. So, you never knew who would end up in your circle. I can remember one night sitting in a dive bar one morning, and we had Suge Knight on one side of us and the Crips on the other side, the Bloods and like we're about to have a war in this dive bar. So we bought everybody pizza and about 100 cheap beers, just kind of made friends. So, we tried to get everybody to form the tulpa then.

AUBREY: Yeah, I mean, one of the things that was a part of your whole, seemed like your whole history is, you would get in some scraps. You're not afraid of a scrap.

SHAWN: No, no, not really. We had a lot of physical altercations. Well, it was rough, because there's also a really rough element of Vegas. You still have your drug dealers and the pimps and the haters. And we just kind of ran through all of them. Established our ground.

AUBREY: It was like prison rules slightly out there. 

SHAWN: Yeah, for sure. 

AUBREY: And I think that's probably part of what Steve saw in you is that you can handle your business, but you could also withstand some pressure. You could withstand the heat. He could count on you to throw you into a fire. 

SHAWN: And he did. 

AUBREY: And he did, he did and Macau was a fucking fire. Because you're coming in as westerners on other people's turf at that point. So, that is a very vulnerable position to be in. 

SHAWN: And that was a tough--

AUBREY: And you sounded like the tip of the spear of that operation out there?

SHAWN: We were his eyes and ears there. So, we knew what was going on on the ground. Our job was to go to Hong Kong and around Macau and to learn what's really happening. It happened to us. And we ran into some difficult times. Macau you had Russians that ran part of it, the Triads ran the other part of it. And they hated Steve Wynn, 'cause he was the westerner. Stanley Ho was the opposite of Steve Wynn there. Stanley Ho had the monopoly on every casino in Macau until Steve Wynn came in. And that made it a little difficult for us. But we kind of figured out a way to do it. What I did was calling meeting with all the bosses that supposedly hated us. And I went to each one of them and gave them a personal invitation. And that was hard sitting across the table from a guy that had four security guards behind him, and all of them hated you. But I would go to them, I sat with them, gave them an invitation, told them that this is my job, I was here, I represented The Wynn and Steve Wynn, and this is what we're doing. So, they can either accept it or not but...

AUBREY: I mean, was there a moment where you had that kind of like cup check where you're fucking A, I really don't want to do this.

SHAWN: There were a few moments where I might have had tears in a pillow saying, "Oh, boy, I don't think I'm going to make it out of this." I really didn't think I would make it out of there. But I'd go back in and get back in the mix. I told these guys, though, that I'll be their best customer. So if they can be friends with us, they'll see that I'll be their best customer and I'll bring business to them. And that's what I started to do. And at that point, we started kind of forming a bond with the guys that didn't like us, because we brought them more business than they had themselves. And our mission was not to take any of the business out of Macau. So, our whole business was bringing business to Macau. And we really liked Macau, we liked the people of Macau. And so once we started really bringing in business and then taking them around town and sharing the business, we started getting along very well. 

AUBREY: Yeah. All right, so we've got to go to this story that you told me a long time ago, that we talked a moment about. But you told me about this very wild experience you had with some Russians. And I'm just going to let you tell this story without giving the summary of it. But this blew my fucking mind when I heard it. And now that 10, or whatever, how many years and we've both experienced a lot of the same medicine since then. And so, let's talk about this experience because as much ayahuasca as we both drank, as much as that, this sounded like a really unique thing that I have not heard anybody else talk about.

SHAWN: So this was an experience definitely, I'll never forget. But I was in a Russian club one night. The Russians test you a lot, and they try to scare you a little. So I caught myself in the club and I was by myself now at this point with I guess the head Russian guy. He had girls and a lot of people around. They started giving me stuff, right? Putting stuff in my mouth or in my drink, and just drugged me out. Whatever it was, just took me out. And then they carried me out of the club, and I found myself in a car driving out of Macau across the bridge. And I woke up in a hotel room with the Russian boss next to me, and there were some other people in the room. And they're kind of questioning me. It was pretty difficult, but then--

AUBREY: Did you think you were going to die?

SHAWN: At that point, I was out of it enough to where it just didn't matter. I was just trying to stay up. But it was a pretty intense moment, especially with the other people there because they weren't friendly. They weren't being mean, but they were there to watch. And they were kind of circled around us. But the Russian guy was kind of out of it too. And so, he would ask me questions, and other people would ask me questions. And for whatever reason, the Russian boss and I kind of connected. We started appreciating each other a little. And then they passed something around. I wasn't sure if I sniffed it, or if it was in my drink, but it was something extremely intense. And I found myself pulling G's in the chair. 

AUBREY: So, it was the sensation of being in G forces.

SHAWN: I had no idea, I've never felt anything like this. I can remember holding the bottom of my chair like a rocket and trying to hold myself in the chair. And it just felt like I was going 1000 miles an hour. And when I stopped, I was no longer in that room. I was sitting at a long table, long on each side. And the Russian guy was across from me. And there were other men that I could see on this table. And he and I had a very deep conversation, and it lasted quite a while. And then when I came out of that, we were back in the hotel room. And he started repeating to me the conversation that we had there. I had no idea what was going on at this point, it was very tough. I'm like, wait, we were just talking there. And he repeated everything. Then he talked about what we talked about. They would give you a break. And he would sit there and just kind of sit in your chair and relax. And then they would come and pass around, they would give you a Corona to sip. And then next thing you go back in. And I'd be back at that table, and then the Russian guy and I would start having conversations again. I can remember he told me about a club he wanted to design. He was telling me about how he wanted beautiful paintings on the wall, things by Michelangelo. And he would go over the paintings that he wanted the wall to look like. He would talk to me about it, and I could see his hand do this and I'd see the wall come up. We were basically designing this property together. And everything that he would do, he could make the wall smaller, bigger. And so, we were looking at him designing this property. Then we came out of it. We're back in the chairs in the hotel room. And then I talked to him about the club he just designed. And he was so happy because we were fully communicating on the other side. God, it went on forever, went a long time. When it was all over with, I think they left me in the room, and I woke up maybe a day later. And there was one person in the room that was just left there to keep an eye on me. And I got out of this place and found a taxi and made it back to The Wynn. And they were worried, I'd been gone for days. Maybe he was worried something happened. It took me about a week. I stayed in my room for about a week, I didn't want to get out. Even had one of my buddies sleep on my bed for a couple of nights. Like man, I don't know what just happened but that was very intense. And so, after about a week I came back to it and I went straight to the Russians' club and I sat with him. We had a drink together and laughed, and they never messed with me after that. We kind of just became okay.

AUBREY: I mean, what you're describing, first of all, it seems like a magical technology basically. Some kind of medicine drug concoction.

SHAWN: He said that he got it from the Chinese boss, the Triad boss. And the Triad boss did this to him. And he said that there is a society of men, and that's how they have their conversation, is through this type of drug. 

AUBREY: And it allows you to enter a shared space and I guess what you would call the astral. It's like an actual location, which is like this shared space and--

SHAWN: Very conscious there. My body, I was out. And over there, very clear, very conscious. We had real discussions, spoke of our fathers, spoke of our childhoods. We spoke in a great depth of feelings, you couldn't help it. There was no lying involved. It was all honest emotion and honest conversation. That's actually where we bonded. 

AUBREY: Yeah. I mean, okay, so now we've done, subsequently, you've done a lot of ayahuasca. We've been to a lot of places. I've never encountered anything like that place with this thing. I mean, but you hear about shared vision spaces where people can get in. And I think I've had some kind of same thing happening, but nothing that's even close to this lucid, and nothing that even seems, like this story, if you take this story in, shifts your paradigm of what you think is possible in the nonphysical dimension exchange, right? Something else is possible. 

SHAWN: I think it shifted something in me. It opened something in me. It was certainly an experience that opened a door that I think about still sometimes because it has made it easier for me now to go deep into another space. Because I feel like I've already been through a pretty tough door. I've tried to ask what it was, and they would never give me an answer. They'd never tell me anything what it was,

AUBREY: You could visit, but you weren't a member.

SHAWN: Right, I guess. Yeah.

AUBREY: And that also just speaks to this idea that, well, no, actually, there really are special technologies and special mystery schools that exist amongst different people. Like, this is a real phenomenon, where there's some real shit that's happening out there that we're not aware of, that we're not privy to, that's not going to be written about in the latest Maps newsletter. There's some stuff that exists still.

SHAWN: I think it's a very small percentage of people that are brought into that, and able to actually maintain enough to function in that space. 

AUBREY: Right. Yeah. Well, you were the right person for the job. You've been training for that moment your whole life.

SHAWN: Yeah, I started enjoying it. It was so fascinating. I was like, okay, well, I remember maybe the third time, he says, "Okay, put your seatbelt on." And I remember I was looking for it, trying to find my seatbelt. It's like, "Oh, I have to hurry and put my seatbelt on before it starts again." And obviously I didn't have one. I would just hold the bottom of my chair and like, "Okay, I'm ready. Let's go." And we'd be there. 

AUBREY: Wow. Well, at a certain point, I could sense that you were ready to leave this world behind, things were starting to change in Vegas. There was some reason that I decided that, you know what, I'm going to invite you to go see Don Howard down in Peru. And you said yes. I remember you had a little apprehension, you were used to a whole different kind of world. But you went in as you do with full effort, full heart, full intensity. And we had just a phenomenal experience down there. And I think that time, it was just Huachuma, right? So we experienced the Huachuma masada with Don Howard. And that's what kind of started this medicine journey for you, right?

SHAWN: Definitely. That made a big difference in my life. It was immediate that I was already on my personal searcher journey, which I didn't know what it was. I left Vegas and I was ready to leave Vegas. I needed to see what more there was in life. And I felt like I needed to find out truthfully, who I was, and who I could be versus the character that I was so used to playing. It almost became to where it wasn't me anymore. It was a character that I had to continue with. I wanted to break free of the character, and I was willing to do what it took to break free. And I think the time that we first spent with Don Howard allowed me to do really go into myself and start making some decisions. And my decision was that I was going to find the truth. So, to find that truth, I had to get through a lot of a hardened shell that I had created. So, the challenge was getting through that shell. And I had a suit of armor. But the armor was on the wrong side.  

AUBREY: What's the emotion that comes up when you think about that?

SHAWN: It was very difficult, it was very hard, it was very honest. I think when you started that search, there was an honesty and a purity to it that I wanted to continue, and I wanted to feel, and I knew I had a lot to clean out to be able to get to that. And it wasn't soft. It wasn't pretty, it was dark, and it was hard. So, the emotion that I feel, one is honor and pride and peace and happiness, because I made the commitment to do it. And I've never stopped.

AUBREY: It's the greatest thing to face the shadow full on.

SHAWN: It was wonderful, it's a challenge. It was a challenge. 

AUBREY: Yeah, that's it.

SHAWN: And then it got just harder and harder. So, I remember Don Howard, I went back and had the ayahuasca, and Don Howard gave me some hard talks. I wanted to continue. And then I decided, I would look at Don Rober, and I would say, "Okay, where does he go?" I started wondering, how far does this go? I want to go there.

AUBREY: Well, that's before you go to your next stop in the jungle. You told a story about something that happened at Spirit Quest that I had never heard. I knew Don Howard well, and we talked a lot and even, and I asked him about it. And this was a very unique situation, where, apparently, according to both you and Don Howard, as my recollection serves, this is maybe like the third ceremony night or something like that. Third out of four. One cup of Ayahuasca was getting you some work done, but they saw that you needed it, and maybe you asked for it, I don't know exactly how it went. But that you needed a particularly strong dose in the middle of the room, which was described as something akin to an exorcism. And I say that with all, I don't even believe in the actual exorcism, like you see in the fucking movies, the priest and all of the nonsense, and that it's an outside demon that comes in, and there's an outside demon that was there. None of that shit. But an exorcism is where you're really releasing a lot of the energy that you've compacted into your system. And that energy, you could externalize it and anthropomorphize it as some other being but it's really like your end. This is my understanding. So, your energy, it's in there. And you had accumulated that energy from all of the experiences you'd had, maybe you carried some of that with you, maybe some of that was through your epigenetic lineage, whatever. However, it was, you had a lot. Enough so that, I remember one night, we were in Austin. And you were hanging out with a buddy that had just got out of prison. He'd just got out of prison, and he was like, "I was just in prison, and I never saw anything like Shawn Chester." He saw you, and he was like, "That guy. Holy shit." So, there was some depth to the shadow that was inside of you. And so, Don Rober and Don Howard brought you to the center of the maloca. And why don't you tell the story of what happened there that night for you.

SHAWN: Yeah. I think there was this, I could feel it in me. There was an energy that I have protected, I would say. It was a darkness that I maybe became very comfortable with, and that I was ready for it to leave. And I was truly ready for it to leave and I couldn't get it out, it was attached to me. I could feel it in my body. It was hard. It was like a stone, like a big stone just stuck inside of me, very comfortable that I had protected for a long time.

AUBREY: My pet demon. 

SHAWN: It was my own. I held it, it was mine. And I think I had it for a long time. And at that moment, I was committed to getting it out. And, boy, they helped me. I think it was maybe three cups.

AUBREY: Three cups of the Don Rober Don Howard brew is, it's heavy.

SHAWN: Yeah, it was heavy. I still couldn't vomit. I wouldn't vomit, I couldn't poop, I couldn't do anything to get it out, until they went to work. I mean, they were like surgeons on me. And I could feel it starting to move. And all I wanted to do is get it out. I was just hoping and pushing and fighting and pulling and wanting it out. I think we got a piece of it. I think we definitely got a chunk of it in that ceremony, and that's when I knew it's time to go.

AUBREY: Well, that was more, I mean, it's a euphemism for what the story is that happened. Apparently, people saw some shit that came out of you at that point.

SHAWN: That's what I hear. Yes.

AUBREY: Like, many people report because they were watching, this is a spectacle. This is unusual, you're in the center of them. And it happens. They sometimes will do healings, the Chupar, which is like the sucking healing. And there's sometimes different healings that will go on in the center, different from the outside healings that happen in the perimeter. Occasionally, someone will be drawn to the middle. Rare, though. But anyways, it draws your attention when that's happening. And you're in there. And I talked to some other people in the circle, and they said they saw something leave your body.

SHAWN: It left, yeah. I mean, it was real. Whatever that is. That little friend of energy that I decided to be friends with for way too long, we no longer were friends. And yeah, I could feel it come out. And it was very difficult. It was very hard. But I was so committed and so open. That was when I knew I understood what focus was becoming, and how to truly become in control over myself, and my mind and my body. I knew that it was time. And I felt that I was built for it. I felt that I had the strength to do it. And then it came out. It was something pretty extraordinary for me. After that happened, though, that's when I knew for me, it was time to go deeper. I needed to go away from being the spectacle with other people there. I needed to do some private journeys, because if that was able to do that under those circumstances, then how far could I go, and where's the end of this? There's no end to this I found out later. 

AUBREY: Yeah, yeah, so it took you deeper into the jungle. 

SHAWN: That's when I started--

AUBREY: And so, for people who want to understand this in a way, I mean, the way that this energy works is, you become a vessel that's no longer suitable for the darkness as far as I understand it. And so, the pushing of, whenever they're blowing smoke into you, or they're doing something like that, they're pushing enough positive energy, enough light, enough love that your vessel becomes unsuitable for the darkness. So, it's like a splinter that's getting pushed out of a healthy--

SHAWN: At the same time, you have to do it, too. I found what they're doing is also making me comfortable enough, but I have to do the work. No one was going to do that for me. I could figure that out. I could feel that. And so, as much as it was difficult emotionally, in my mind, it was very physically difficult also. But you start to feel it budge a hair, and you know you're onto something. So if it can move a hair, then it can get out. 

AUBREY: Yeah. If it bleeds, we can kill it.

SHAWN: Right. And I knew it, and I felt a little excitement there. And as a little private warrior there, I'm like okay, it's on. This is my next battle. I got you. You're nothing. So, we went to war.

AUBREY: So all right, so you leave that and then you're like, alright. I'm going even deeper, deeper into the jungle. And you wound up with a shaman who I was aware of some of his lineage, because, so I'll just tell this story. And you can tell where you arrived and what your experience was there. But so Don Julio was spoken about as an absolute legend from Maestro Alberto and Maestro Hamilton, who I became good friends with Hamilton who had worked and trained under Alberto and Julio. And, Julio is referred to, he was like Yoda. I mean, the way they talk about him, like full eyes open, shapeshifting, whether you're on medicine or not, could turn into a jaguar. The legends about this man are epic. And Julio, Alberto, Hamilton, their lineage was about really healing and reversing the hexes and curses of bad curanderos, bad Ayahuesceros, or bad. We say bad but the ones that have hurt people. That was kind of their jam. They were like the gunfighters, they were like Billy the Kid and fucking Doc Holliday out there. And anybody who'd been fucked up would go see Don Julio deep in the jungle and Alberto, and then they would reverse whatever bad magic was there. Confront the shamans who hexed the person and put out the bad magic. And again, I know that sounds fantastical, but these are the stories and then they would have a shaman's duel, have a battle. They were Billy the Kid and Doc Holliday. They would fuck everybody up, and then heal people, cure them. But they also had this kind of interesting, yeah, we're here, we're gunfighters, for good. The gunfighters for good, gunfighters for God, whatever you want to say. But they had that kind of like, this is our specialty. So anyways, they passed that down and did some amazing work. Alberto himself is a fucking wizard. I mean, I was in a ceremony with him. I heard him sing an Icaro to the bats and saw the bat swirling around the maloca. Like literally was like one of those Beastmaster spells where he was like, and the other shamans were laughing, like yeah, these are Alberto's bats. Whenever he sings his Icaro, they come around. He could sing the cicadas up into resonance with Icaros, sing them down.

SHAWN: Frequency matters. 

AUBREY: He was a master, just an absolute master. And always just the biggest barrel laugh. And I always say you can tell a spiritual master by the sound of their laughter. Because if you're not laughing, you don't fucking get it. So, absolute reverence for that whole lineage. But on another offshoot of that lineage was Julio's grandson.

SHAWN: Well, Julio was old. And what happened in the end of Julio's life, was that the jungle became very dark around Julio, because other shamans wanted to kill him.

AUBREY: Yeah. And the idea was that they could take his magic if they killed them.

SHAWN: So, his grandson, Jairo, took him into the jungle and hid him, and hid him in a little cabin. And I actually got to see this cabin after they burned it down. But hid him in a cabin until his death. After his death, it was Jairo that was with him. And Jairo took on his energy, his magic. And Jairo was who I went and visited. A really strong ceremony. It was definitely, it's deep, about I told you 15 hours down the Amazon. 

AUBREY: From Iquitos? 

SHAWN: From Iquitos, 15 hours.

AUBREY: Iquitos is hard to get to already. There's no cars that go to Iquitos. You have to fly in and travel by boat down the Amazon River. 

SHAWN: We take a boat 15 hours down the Amazon from Iquitos. And then you get dropped off in a little village. And then they picked us up in little tiny boats and took us about another two hours into the jungle. And that's where Jairo lives. And he lives in the Matses community, so the Matses tribe. They have the tattoos across their mouth and they're the frog specialists. But that's where he was.

 AUBREY: And so you took your stint doing some work down there with Jairo, a lot of purging.

SHAWN: Yeah, and there was also another guy there, another shaman. And that was my first experience with dark magic, which I didn't know. So I did several ceremonies with Jairo, and then another shaman was there, invited me to do a ceremony. And that's where I learned, don't just go with any shaman to do a ceremony because some weird books came out. I was like, oh, man, what am I in for, right? And then I sat through my first dark ceremony, which I think kind of became my training. And for me, it felt good, actually, because I started feeling in control. Nothing was able to enter me or come at me, which they tried. And I could feel dark--

AUBREY: Like the Russians testing you.

SHAWN: Already got it out.

AUBREY: Yeah, because for that, really, so much is energy and resonance and frequency, right? If you don't have that darkness in you, I think that's why people get afraid. The fear is actually the conduit itself. Who's never been cursed? Someone drinking Budweiser on their front porch. You know why? Like, fuck you, what are you doing? Go fuck yourself. Because they'd have no belief that it's possible, and there's nothing to attach to that. So, really, if you can keep your energy body strong, and just stay away from fear as the prime illness of our world, stay away from fear, stay in love, you're good. You're good, you're good.

SHAWN: That's when I first started feeling my own personal strength in this ayahuasca round, like my role. It felt different, I felt like I was in training somewhat. And my training was to strengthen myself, continue strengthening myself for the good, and start making a difference. And with that triggers action and action items. So, with the gift of passing through that ceremony, I knew I had to clean up in other ways. And the more that I was able to do it, every time I could do an action item, more would come to me, and I would strengthen and I would go further. And it started triggering something, it was one after another. As long as I did what I was supposed to do, more would open.

AUBREY: And you have a very cool way that you look at integration. I think a lot of times people get this really kind of etheric fluffy idea of integration. Like continue not eating salt or whatever thing you're doing and pray a little bit and whatever. And for you, yeah, go for it, stay in your Dieta, do all the things. But what did you learn? And what the fuck are you going to do about it, right? Let's get real here, let's get tangible. Let's figure out what you're really going to take from this. If the medicine told you to do something, fucking do it. Fucking do it. Stop asking questions, just do it. 

SHAWN: That's when I started learning about focus, concentration, getting precise in the ceremony. The more you get precise like an arrow, you shoot through all the mess. And when you're able to shoot through the mess, that's when I think that you really start finding your center, and your own personal universe. And if you can get to the center in your own personal universe, if you can just get there once, it gives you enough of a feeling to where you know that you have to continue that because it's working, what you're doing is working. It matters. You're cleaning more than your body and your mind. You're cleaning your soul.

AUBREY: Yeah. I've had messages on medicine before, and a lot of them I follow. I mean, we're in Onnit headquarters right now. And ayahuasca played a very key role in my first sits with Maestro Orlando. I saw exactly what Onnit could become, and I saw the action items that I needed to take to make that happen, right? And that was such a gift when I followed instructions. And here we are, what a beautiful thing for the world, for me, for my family, for generations to come, whatever. This is a very powerful thing. But there's other times I can think back to clear messages that I got. I got the clearest message that I needed to go take a walking trip from the bush somewhere in Australia, to Uluru to Ayers Rock. I needed to take a walking pilgrimage, and it was crystal clear. And I'm looking like, well, fuck, how do I do that? It doesn't seem comfortable. I don't even like camping. What am I doing? 

SHAWN: It's never comfortable. 

AUBREY: Oh, I know. And I think about that, because the time has passed. I'm not getting continued messages. That was the thing that, and I wonder, and I do have a little bit of regret. I know life is a forking path, there's a million ways, and I have a million chances to come at the same thing a different way. But that's the one thing that I think about. There's been other little things that I've ignored, other things that I've followed, but that's the one that sticks out to me like, if I really trusted the medicine, I would have just cleared the space, dropped everything and said, "Sorry, everybody. I'm going on a walking trip to Uluru, and I'll see you later." And I wonder, what would have happened? I mean, I'm so grateful for my life, and it's not like I'm saying, this is a bad thing that happened. But I'm just curious about if I would have listened. And maybe the lesson there is just listen, so you don't have to wonder. If you get something really clear, and it really feels grounded, then just say yes. 

SHAWN: I think it's hard to question yourself when you move. I think in this process, you learn that you do what you can, and every move is the right move. And then you focus on that next move. There's certainly things that we want to do and we should do that we don't do. But I don't think it has any effect or change up on our lives because we're still living it. And every move we make is important. The next one is important. So, it's okay for your walk.

AUBREY: Thanks, man, because I feel good, I feel good. 

SHAWN: You'll be fine. 

AUBREY: Thank you. I appreciate that. All right, so your next move from that deep jungle in Peru, you linked up with someone who was there and they took you from Peru, which is Ayahuasa, into Colombia, which is also ayahuasca, but they call it Yage and it's a little bit different. And the shamans are called Taitas. It's a different program down there. And that's kind of the introduction to getting you to the place where you are now, and we'll get there. So what was your experience like, going from the Peruvian tradition, into the Colombian tradition?

SHAWN: It was very different. It was nice. And the guy that I became friends with, he's my right hand now. He's my brother and my friend, and he's a teacher. He's a Taita apprentice, and he's as good as any Taita already. A young guy, but he is true to it. And he introduced me to Titus Savino Chindoy of the Inga community. And we got messaging back and forth with Taita Savino, when I was in Las Vegas. Taita Savino invited me to come out and spend a month with him. And he asked one thing of me, if I would come and spend time with him if I would take what I learned back to the Western world. That sounded very cool. At the time, it was fun. I was like, yeah, of course, of course. So I went to Columbia. And--

AUBREY: I want to just pause here for one second, because there's a lot of people that will assume that all of these medicine carriers are mad that the medicine is being shared with the world, but everyone that I've talked to, from the Quechua tradition to the Shipibo tradition, and it sounds like from this Inga tradition, they recognize that we're in a new era of a global world where everybody can fuck up everything for everyone. This is not a time to be well, my tribe is going to win because I got this medicine, I'm going to protect it. The whole world needs to heal, or we're all fucked. 

SHAWN: There's no competition there. 

AUBREY: It's like that game, that game was for an era that is long past, we're in a new era now where the world needs medicine.

SHAWN: They want to teach you.

AUBREY: And they want to offer it. 

SHAWN: They want you to respect the medicine. For them, as many people that can get to the medicine means a better energy and a better life on the planet. It's better for the earth.

AUBREY: Now more than ever, and as we're seeing, we need all the help we can get. And I'm not trying to speak for all First Nations and indigenous people. I'm sure some don't agree with that. And I absolutely respect that. They also have every right to be pissed off by all of the colonization and all of the bullshit that they've had to deal with. I get it. All the years. Rage is sacred and deserved and fully understood. Yes, and, please, we need the wisdom that you've carried, we all do. And it needs to reach through everybody that's making all these crazy fucking decisions. Like creating $8 trillion, or $6 trillion, and then fucking frittering it away when that's the resources that we need to create an entire new global system of education and food supplies and water and awareness that could actually bring our entire planet into coherence. We're not making those fucking decisions. But the medicine and in my opinion plays a key role in helping bring people to this unified understanding of we all share a fucking home, everyone. Everybody matters.

SHAWN: People are being pulled further and further away from--

AUBREY: Mother Earth.

SHAWN: From the original human. And I think people are so far disconnected from who they're really supposed to be. Whether it be the confusion going on through media, through politics, through all the craziness that's going on. All it's doing is pulling people further and further away from who they truly are. I think it's clouding people's minds, it's clouding their souls, it's confusion. And I think one thing that the medicine offers, and that all the Taitas, all the communities understand is, the offer is clarity. And if you're serious about it, you will get clarity and that pulls you closer to nature. Or from nature, this is where we were born. We're part of it.

AUBREY: Yeah, no matter what fucking penthouse, you get on a skyscraper, 45 floors up, guess what? You're still part of Earth, and you're going back there. I don't care if you get burned or I don't care if you put yourself in a coffin. You're fucking going back home, one way or another. You are going to be recycled. 

SHAWN: Yes, yes, absolutely. 

AUBREY: Yep, we're all in that future recycle bin, sorry. 

SHAWN: Yes, that's true. 

AUBREY: Some people are trying to delay it by fucking cryofreezing them. 

SHAWN: Good luck. 

AUBREY: Yeah, good luck. You're going to go out and die from this body and be like, "Man, I really want to go back to that frozen motherfucker that I poisoned for..."

SHAWN: May not be today, it may be 100 years from now, but you will be recycled.

AUBREY: Let go, it's fine. You'll get a new one. 

SHAWN: It's okay. 

AUBREY: It's great. 

SHAWN: It's okay, we've died a lot of times. It's not so bad. It's pretty nice actually. 

AUBREY: Yeah, it's lovely there. Yeah, I like being Aubrey. Aubrey is great. But next one will be awesome too. I got a deal with Vylana that she's going to come in a different body next time. So, we're good. We're good. All right, so you start the work with the Yage. So tell us, give us like for people, because I've just been honestly learning about the difference because I've only worked with traditional Peruvian. I've worked with Shipibo, Quechua and Mestizo. So all the three major Peruvian traditions. And then I've worked with kind of Brazilian influenced traditions as well which is very cool. There's drumming and there's a whole different experience in the Brazilian tradition, but never the Colombian.

SHAWN: Well, it's very much different than the Peruvian style. The ceremonies go through the entire night. God, the medicine was strong. Medicine was strong. Do you know, the further you go into the jungle the stronger ayahuasca gets, the stronger the experience gets. But the experience is quite a bit different. It's through to sunrise. Generally, there's always a second cup.

AUBREY: So for contrast, in the traditions that I'm a part of, you drink around 7:00, 8:00 p.m. After dark you go, and then four or five hours. Sometimes up to six, but rarely that long. And then they'll light a candle in the center of the room and it'll go from darkness. The shamans will say good night after they've done, their clearings, and all the prayers and you can stay in the maloca if you want, and some people do stay there. But the ceremony is officially over. 

SHAWN: Yeah, we're hitting second gear.

AUBREY: Just the way you like it.

SHAWN: Which is what I was attracted to.

AUBREY: No wonder you like the Yage tradition.

SHAWN: There's a lot of old me that still is able to respect the new me. There was a lot of training there. So even through the darkness of the times, it's been allowed to give me what I need to do the right thing now. So, I do like the all night ceremonies, I find that you go even deeper when others are finished with the ceremony. We go in spat. So the first hour is one thing after your cup, that's when you have your most intense experience at that moment of getting pulled into the realm. And then you'll climb out of your hammock, go do a cleansing, we do a lot of cleansings, ortiga cleansings.

AUBREY: Ortiga cleansings. Explain that, because that sounds like something I would not enjoy.

SHAWN: Well, I think that you would, okay? Because it's a pretty special moment. The ortiga, also known as the stinging nettle, is a plant with spikes on it. Pretty long spikes. And they do a cleansing with you with this plant. So they're sticking this in you, they're hitting you with it, they're dragging it across you. But what the plant does is the plant is one of the most nutritious plants in the jungle. It's filled with tons of nutrients, vitamins, it's an anti-inflammatory. So physically, you're feeling the sting of the plant. But when it's over your body just feels heavenly. You feel wonderful. You lay in your hammock and you have a whole. You've just been refreshed, revived. And then after that point, we'll get a second cup. So once you finish your first cup and you finish the intensity, maybe you have a vomit, poop, whatever that is, you'll have a cleansing. And then once you start feeling totally good again, it's time to go back. And when we go back for the second cup, that's when we practice no vomit. And you allow the medicine to marinate inside of you. And when you do this, it's a different effect than the first cup. The first cup can be very intense and it's kind of pulling you in. The second cup is slow and hard. So it feels very heavy on you. You really have to pay attention to your breathing. But as it goes, it gets heavier and heavier and if you can maintain your composure and focus, that's when you'll really start to have vision and clarity, because you're so cleaned out from the first several hours. At this point, your body's totally ready to accept. And we'll sit through that, maybe a couple of hours. And then the music starts. And when the music starts, we party, we celebrate. We celebrate the night. The musicians are very serious. They're not just your campfire guys. They take each note very serious, they take their voice serious. And they sing to the medicine, that's their job, their role is to play this music. And it's beautiful. It is wonderful. And we play the music to sunrise, and then maybe another cleansing at sunrise. But it's an all-night affair. There's no sleep.

AUBREY: There's a phenomenon that's occurring now with me with ayahuasca. It's giving me the very limit of what I'm capable of withstanding. And I don't know if it's because I'm able to receive more than I used to, or whether maybe I have more to clean. I don't know why this is, but it feels like the metaphor that I use is I'm a 120-watt light bulb, and there's about 600 watts that are getting pushed through me. And it's like how the fuck am I going to deal with this? I mean, I'll purge sometimes, but it's not that. It's just the energy is so strong, like dealing with it. And I recognize that in periods of focus, where I can just bear it, where I can choose to just hold it, it just goes deeper, and deeper, and deeper. And it's like more and more, and it's infinitely more beautiful and hard, at every different layer of depth. And then finally, I'll go as long as I can, surrender deeper, deeper, deeper, deeper. And it's fucking straight through my eyes, into my heart, working like magic is happening. Then I'll be, fuck, too much, too much. And I'll breathe or I'll shake, or I'll move the energy or start speaking in fucking insectoid language and move some of it out of my body. But I recognize that if there was, I'm using this kind of grindstone to sharpen my sword in a way. It's like the more I can sit with it, the more magical it becomes, and sounds like this is a deep like intentional part of this Yage practice.

SHAWN: Yeah, so what I started being able to do was, the more practice I got, either with guests or with others, I started going to certain Taitas myself. So I'd do my own personal retreats. And I started customizing my retreat retreats. I needed to learn where my limit was, what my timing is between the first and second cup. This is a second or third cup. There are times that I need to be stronger than others. For me, it's been a training and a test. Where is my sweet spot for me? So, I've learned to kind of customize my own retreats that are very, very, very difficult. But again, just as you said, it goes deeper and deeper. And it's a matter of how deep you want to go. I'm okay with it not having a bottom. Because the further I go, the more I learn. And I feel like it makes a difference in my human life, because I'm able to really get deep and clean out what I need to clean out. Focus very clear on what I need to bring back in. So, I feel the deeper I go, the more room I allow for the good stuff to come in. As long as I focus on the good stuff coming in, on making room inside of myself. And there's where I get action items. So when I get these action items, I think about them. And after the ceremony is over, I sit by the fire and I go over these action items in my head, I have to do this. Sometimes I'll write a note to my wife on my phone about the action items. And it's a gift to me, to allow me to go so deep and to be able to maintain my composure because it is hard. And it is very hard work. But it's making a difference in my life. And not just that, it makes a difference now for me in the business I'm doing. And as a guide, because I've been able to test myself and I know where my limits are, therefore when I'm sharing with you, I really understand you well. Whether you're a new person, or whether you have experience, I can kind of understand where you are at the moment of where you are. And it helps me not only keep an eye on you, but to help form that energy and that strength and hold that ground for you. And I think it's helping my guests. The more that I can learn and the more that I can I strengthen myself, the more that I can give back.

AUBREY: Yeah, yeah, for sure. You have to have a very interesting relationship with fear at this point, because the principal fears as I see them, is fear of death. And obviously, ayahuasca is called the vine of death or the vine of souls for the reason that it usually has you confronting your biggest fear, which is the fear of death. So that, and as you said, you die many times in ayahuasca. That was my very first experience, I died in every possible way except for the actual literal death. But then there's also the fear of suffering. Fear of suffering is another huge one. Because even if you're alive, and that's one that I'm still, of course, dealing with. And I think every time I get into a cold plunge, every time I go into a hard ceremony, I face, because this is the way to deal with fear, if you face it. I was just watching "The Witcher" and this was just last night. Geralt says, "Fear is an illness. And if you catch it, it can consume you." And then Ciri says, "Well, how do you cure it?" And he says, "You face it." You face it. There's no other way to get around fear, sorry. There's no other way, you have to face it. And in this process, from the nettles, to the intensity of the ceremony, you're facing your fear of suffering by putting yourself in a situation, a safe situation, where you have to fucking deal with it. You have to do something really hard and deal with it. So it seems like that for you, two of the major fear monsters that are out there plaguing most people, you've really faced them. So what is your relationship with fear now?

SHAWN: Well, the fear of death, you can die a bunch of times here and still have a fear of death. The fear of death is not death for me, is, did I live a good life? What's next, right? So, I can die many times. But if I'm not prepared for that death, then the fear is still there. So, I learned to go deep enough and to turn over every rock, as they say. I have no secret. I have nothing that I have not faced. I have no thoughts, no dark thoughts, no good thoughts. There's nothing that I haven't sat in a hammock and faced. Then you said the right thing of suffering. So suffering was my other fear. How is that death? So then I started going heavier on ayahuasca. I would go into where I would drink so much ayahuasca where I couldn't breathe. And I'd have to sit there and painfully try not to have a heart attack, and breathe for three hours, until I can feel okay again. I wouldn't recommend that for other people, but that was part of my training in facing my fears, taking it to a limit of, well, maybe I am close to death, probably because my body is shutting down because I'm poisoning myself so much. But I went through that by facing the fear of suffocation. I mean, there's times where my chest is so heavy, all I could do is concentrate on just holding a little breath. And if I could grab some of that breath and keep that going, then that's like having a straw under water. I'm still alive. As long as I could feel myself, I'm still going, I can maintain this for days if I have to. So, that was part of my training and doing my own personal retreats. And once I uncovered every stone and started living truthfully, honestly, in a way that I'm proud of, then fear just disappears. So going into my next life, I have zero fear. And I don't think I have any fear other than I just hope to do the best that I can from this point on.

AUBREY: I think one of the other fears that people deal with which is, it's a slippery one because it's rooted in preference itself? And we can have a preference to be wealthy, a preference to be successful, a preference to have worldly pleasures of some certain things versus not having worldly pleasures. And this is based in both the sense, the corporeal body that likes the sensations of these certain things, and also the ego body, which likes the validation of these certain things. But these certain pleasures that we like versus the things that we don't like, so every time we have a desire, there's an accompanying fear of not having that desire. Every time we have a hope there's an accompanying fear that we're not going to actualize that hope. I understand that when we have hope we're actually living partially truly in a future reality that we believe is as real as we believe that it's going to be real. Our belief is creating this future world for us. And so that's why I hope it's scary. Because if we don't reach that world, we have to suffer the disappointment of that thing. But the interesting thing about going into the medicine world as deep as you are is, you realize a different perspective on what really matters. What really matters? And I imagine that for you, coming from Vegas, where all the worldly shit matters. Like whatever thing you had on your business card,  how many zeros you had in your bank account, whatever your Klout score was, whatever that was, was really important. But that shit must be really falling away now too, right?

SHAWN: It's so far gone. It's funny to talk about old stories, because I can honestly say, I don't have them. I'm who I am right now. I have no past. I don't have a fear, because I'm trying. I try in every way to live correctly that I can. I want to be a good man, a good husband, a good guide. I want to be able to have the personal courage and strength to do what's necessary for me so that I can take others in. And hopefully, if they can get 1% of what I got, then they've got something. And maybe they can hook on. Ayahuasca isn't the way for everyone, certainly, but maybe I can just get you 1% forward, and then you can continue on. So I think I don't have a fear anymore.

AUBREY: And that's why I wanted to ask you about it. 

SHAWN: I don't have a desire, other than to live the best I can. I think I can say that.

AUBREY: And the beauty of that is, it's determined moment by moment, right? If we listen, if we listen, we'll be guided to do the best thing in this next moment. Like living a good life is a present tense situation, and if really, we trust that we'll get the wisdom, we'll get the action items, we'll get the next thing to do, and then we trust that we'll execute it, all of this stress of playing this 4D chess that we're always trying to play, from the past and the future and what, yeah, there's a place for it. But there's also a place that you can play chess from a place of absolute tranquility and trust and equanimity. And so, while it may seem like oh, it's a lot of pressure to be the best person I can, no, it's not. Only if you want it to be. It's a moment by moment thing. What's that interaction with that one random person, your server, your person? What's every bit of energy that you're putting out in the world? And every little thing that you do, can you do that with excellence? Can you do that, like the Zen tea ceremony? Like pouring the tea in the best way possible. Drink the tea in the most respectful, beautiful way possible where you're connecting with a plant. Be like, thank you plant. Thank you, sun that warmed the plant, rain that watered it. Thank you. Can you live in this way? And that is really the goal. That's how you release all of this frantic crazy, free floating anxiety and all of this stuff is just to kind of let go and live now.

SHAWN: I'm thankful to have those moments. I have those tea moments. But for me, it can be after ceremonies and I go sit alone by myself and I mean, all I can do is, thank you. Thank you for everything. Thank you for the vomit. Thank you for the trees. You just have so much gratitude that you still have a human life, and you still have to... It's hard to, also, I still have a business to manage. There are things come with that. But I just feel like once you clean yourself out and turn over every rock, what is there to fear anymore? You can put one foot in front of the other now with peace and a little pride. And I think you can become so strong, you're soft.

AUBREY: I heard you say that yesterday at dinner and that's a beautiful way to look at it.

SHAWN: I say that a lot in my head. 

AUBREY: Become so strong that you're soft. Yeah, I mean, hardness is actually the opposite of strength in a lot of ways. You know what I mean? Real strength doesn't need to show that--

SHAWN: Strength is understanding your mind, allowing it to flow. It's not blocking it. It's not pretending. I think the true strength is being able to turn over every stone face and look at them, read them, hold them.

AUBREY: And it doesn't mean you don't do hard things. You got to do hard things. You have to do all the hard things to be actually strong, so that you can actually be soft. Be gentle.

SHAWN: Yes. Yes. 

AUBREY: All right, so you're running a program now down there in Colombia with all of the connections you have to the indigenous. And after talking with you at dinner, and really understanding it, one of the things that you're offering is a real initiation. I mean, this is an initiation ritual. And it's not that everybody has to go through the same initiation. Some initiations are too much for others, but it seems like no matter what, you're going to custom tailor an initiatory experience with this medicine. That's something that's... Ayahuasca is an initiation in and of itself, but it seems like with you and the traditions that you're working with, there's a real beautiful quality to it, that's like this is a rite of passage.

SHAWN: That's a great way to put it. So, I work with different communities; the Cofan, the Inga, Coreguaje, Inga, also the Contra. And each one of these communities offer a very different type of ceremony, all very much a rite of passage. When you spend time with them, and you finish through their night or their two days, however long you're with them, you definitely become one of them. There's no circles, holding hands, singing Kumbaya. We don't pretend to love anybody until it's over. And then you love everybody. I mean, they are your brothers, they are your sisters. Once you go through the trenches together this time, because it's very beautiful, it's very loving, it's very open hearted. But it requires work. And it requires dedication, and it requires discipline, courage. We've been very blessed with each guest that's come down and has given all of those. So as long as you come, ready to put in the work, and with a little understanding that it is work. There's no laying around in hammocks. A little bit of time, sure. We do show you some beautiful places, and we do medicines at waterfalls, and we go on great swims. But those are little breaks in between the hard work. We will put you on motorcycles, and we're going to take you on for hour rides maybe, and we're going deep into the jungle. But we're going to some very beautiful communities. And they accept us and I have a great relationship with them. And we have certain etiquettes that we make sure our guest has, and that we have and we always respect the communities. But man, they give you what you're looking for. They have it.

AUBREY: And there's this whole, I mean, it's very symbolic. A lot of times you're walking up the mountain to go visit these communities and you do medicine all night.

SHAWN: Every one of them is kind of like a movie in the sense of where to get there, there's the old man at the top of the mountain or the lady through the rivers of the jungle. You get there and you have to walk through the back of their community to get to the my mind. They're all a little mystical. It's a little mystical, it's a little fairy tale-ish. It's pretty amazing.

AUBREY: And then you walk back, and I'm sure at that point with your heart open and your eyes really open, you see how magical that place actually is.

SHAWN: Yeah, and your feeling of accomplishment. So one thing that we like to do is, we have somewhat of a strengthening program. We're looking for the people that are ready to move forward on to the next level. And it's for people that like you said, you want to sharpen your sword, you've got a big thing coming up with business or you're having some family issues or you want to move forward, you're going to get married. Whatever the situation is--

AUBREY: Or you're just craving an initiation, a rite of passage, something to find out what's inside you, when every part of you is screaming--

SHAWN: We want to test you.

AUBREY: Will you fucking quit, or will you stay with it? Will you stay with it?

SHAWN: And if you go ahead and just stay with it, you're going to get what you're looking for. It comes. This is real. 

AUBREY: And you'll know that about yourself. You'll know that. That was one of the things that happened, I was actually getting very sick in Peru, one of the times I was working with Don Howard and Don Rober. And so, physically I was really unwell. I had some parasites and some yeast that were going crazy. And I didn't know that at the time. I was just so weak, I was so weak. And I went to the final ceremony and Don Howard, and I was not going to drink. And Don Howard somehow intuited that and walks up to me before the ceremony, he says, "The warrior's heart beats as one." And I was like, "Oh my god, fine. I'll take a full cup." And I was in such hell, it was so brutal. My body was just like wrecked, and I was lying down in the fetal position just sweating through my illness. And the aya was hitting. It was like I wanted to give up. And my grandma came to me in a vision, said, "Just get up, Aubrey. Get up, get up." And I was like, "I can't, grandma. I can't." She's like, "Yes, you can, Aubrey. Get up." I was okay, grandma, and tears were streaming down my face. And I stood up, got myself upright, grabbed my mapacho, lit it and started breathing. I found that yeah, I had a little help from my grandma. But at that point, at my very brink, it was... And she showed me what you have to fight. And I looked outside, and it was like this scene from my favorite place here. And it was greed and ignorance and jealousy and anger, and all of the negative emotions and things that we're plagued by, were outside of the maloca. It's like, this is why you fight. And I was okay, grandma, I will and I'll never stop. And I like found that. I found that in me. So no matter what happens, I have all kinds of things that I still work on. But no matter what happens, I trust now that if I'm brought to my brink, the warrior will emerge. Push me enough and my highest attributes will emerge because I found that in the medicine. And I can't express how valuable it is. Because that becomes a bedrock of what you know about yourself. I know, alright, so things are kind of fucked up, like a little bit bad, like a flight delay, and things. Yeah, I might be a fussy little pansy about all that. But when it comes to it, I'm in. And that's something I really know about myself. 

SHAWN: That's very good. I think it was Viktor Frankl that talked about, I can endure any pain as long as there's meaning. 

AUBREY: Ikkyu Sojun takes it one step further and says, throw me into hell, and I'll find a way to enjoy it. 

SHAWN: Wonderful. 

AUBREY: That's also like, that's the fucking...

SHAWN: I think that people are experiencing that with us. In these indigenous communities, they're very serious about what they do. It's not commercial, this is how they live. This is what's been passed down. They're serving their children, or they're serving their neighbor or serving their friends and family. And everyone finds that strength inside of them, because everyone there has difficulties. And it doesn't matter if it's your first time and you're drinking with the Inga tribe. They may be crying too. Everyone is human, everyone's having difficulties they're getting into. And I think with ayahuasca, it's not like alcohol. You don't build a tolerance. It's coming into you and you have--

AUBREY: Sometimes the opposite, you build a sensitivity.

SHAWN: Yes, one cup can have much stronger, because you understand how to take it, you understand how to go into it. But everyone there, once we're in the communities are together, there's no separation. We form a tulpa, they call it the group. And everyone gets very connected, and they fight the battles together. And when one person's having a hard time, other people are holding ground for you. And I think each person has been finding that they're finding a sense of strength they didn't know they have. And we work with them until the ceremony and look at maybe just starting with Rape' and maybe starting with doing an Ortiga cleansing before we ever get to the ceremony. But we start practicing some of the medicines and how to breathe and how to get through this to where, when it comes to you, oh, okay, I do this. And once you find something starting to work, when your pains come to you, and you remember, "Oh, Shawn taught me how to breathe a certain way," and you start breathing a little bit, and you start feeling yourself working through it, you start feeling that little bit of a win, that kind of accomplishment. And I think people pick up on that and they continue with it. And then when a ceremony is over with after a difficult ceremony, they feel really good because they made it through it. They did what they were supposed to do. They found a piece of themselves they didn't know that they had. And I think all of us, no matter who we are, need some confidence. We need confidence, and we need strength to give us confidence.

AUBREY: This is one of the I think underrated conversations. And of course there's a lot of people who do talk about it. There's the Jocko Willings and Joe and myself and other podcasters really, but this is not something that's talked about in the mainstream as much. The necessity to build real strength and the appreciation for what that can provide. And I think it's because, typically, pretty much our world has been pretty easy. And so, an easy world doesn't challenge you to build the kind of strength, resilience, anti-fragility, those necessary traits that all of our ancestors had to have because they lived in a hard world, a really harsh world. And for most of us, our world has been very convenient. And so it's led to a lot of difficulties where we have to seek out our own discomfort. But it seems that now, the world is ramping up its global discomfort level. And there's going to be some people who are prepared because they've done the work to strengthen themselves, and some people who are absolutely overwhelmed by this next threat, this next fear, this next thing that's happening, this next shortage, this next, whatever it is. It seems okay, we're in a slightly different time now. And I pray that this time is very smooth, but it seems, my sensing is, that it's going to get a little bumpy. 

SHAWN: I think unfortunately it's by design. When you say mainstream, mainstream is more interested in what they can sell you. And a weaker person that is dependent on them, dependent on Amazon, dependent on not having to leave their home to get things brought to them, and I think unfortunately, by design, the weaker the person, the more mainstream is allowed to market their items, whatever that is. And people forget how to get out of the house and get their own food. Something so small and simple. As you say, if this continues to get worse, those people are going to have a hard time. What happens if something shuts down in a day? And I think people are growing more attracted to this, people are recognizing this weakness within themselves. I think people are looking for these adventures, pushing themselves, finding themselves. I think that it's not as rare as it once was.

AUBREY: Yeah. Yeah, no doubt. Well, where can people go if they're curious in opening up the dialog and seeing about what programs to go see are available?

SHAWN: We mostly market on Instagram. Instagram is @TheNativeGuides, that's our company. The Native Guides. And what we've done there is it's not just pretty pictures. At the Native Guides shows you exactly the Taitas that we work with. 

AUBREY: You have videos of everything. 

SHAWN: Descriptions of them, we have interviews with them, we have quotes from the Taitas. We show the medicines we work with, we show some of the experiences of the guests. So, we really try to inform and educate people about what they're getting with us. You won't see any Google Images placed on our sites. But we also have a YouTube channel, The Native Guides. And same thing, we have the native guide experience where we have two awesome ladies that came with us and we show the full 10-day experience. But we also have a website, thenativeguides.com. And anyone can text me, message me from Instagram, or email us. And email is thenativeguides@protonmail.com. But I'm wide open, I'm ready to answer a text or an Instagram message any moment. 

AUBREY: Be careful what you ask for.

SHAWN: Yeah, well, let's talk. This is why I'm here.

AUBREY: Yeah. Brother, it's just been beautiful to be a part of this journey that you're on. And I'm so grateful that whatever parts of the unseen wove our pads together, and we can sit here with this altar in front of us, and Hapé being served together and just be a part of this life. Because, I remember, one day you guys, you and Dave did so much for me in one inebriated night after a bunch of really good tequila or whiskey. I don't know, I'd go back and forth between them. But ultimately, I said, one day, I'll have a bunch of money and I'll go into your place, and I'll spend it for real. You won't have to call me anymore. And you're like, "Oh, that's awesome." You appreciated that sentiment. But of course, our lives have taken a much different path. And we get to share a much, much more beautiful experience than me buying a bunch of bottles from you. 

SHAWN: Thank you. Thank you for taking me. I mean, you saw something either in me, and the medicine, and you were a big part of everything that I do now. Thank you.

AUBREY: Of course, brother. Thank you, everybody, for tuning in. We love you. We'll see you next week.