Your actions are not insignificant.
Every choice you make contributes critically to the future we will live in.
So what is there to do?

This podcast offers some some potential pathways to unlock your full potential as a guardian of the galaxy. One of these vectors we explore at depth is Charles Eisenstein’s decision to join Robert F. Kennedy’s Presidential campaign. We discuss how RFK Jr.'s unwavering commitment to healing the polarization and division tearing our nation apart sets him apart as a beacon of hope.

But his success depends on us.

Not only whether or not he wins the election, but the full potential of him as our leader. In this conversation we also explore the roots of government mistrust, stemming from the tragic assassination of JFK in 1963, and discuss how with our support,  RFK Jr. can pick up the pieces, continuing his family’s powerful legacy.

AUBREY: Charles, my brother. It's good to see you, man.
CHARLES: Hey, Aubrey, happy to be here again.
AUBREY: Yeah. All right, so I'm going to tell this story. And I'm going to tell a story about when I called you when I was in Costa Rica, because I called you, because I'd just finished recording a podcast with Bobby. And I was absolutely blown away, not only by what he had to say, but how he went about saying what he had to say, and how actually precise he was with his language, and how it built this level of trust that I had. And also, what I felt in my body. I felt something in my body, it was like, I fucking trust this guy. I didn't know his whole platform, I didn't know everything. But I just trusted that he was the type of person that would really listen, and move with integrity, like forward, genuinely. So, I went into my own medicine journey after the podcast, and I just got the clearest picture of he has a chance to win the presidency of the United States. And if so, the world radically changes. And very much like you wrote, at the end of "The More Beautiful World Our Hearts Know Is Possible" paradoxically, he's going to win, but it requires all of our effort to be at the maximum capacity that we have. And that's the paradox. He's going to win, and it requires all of us to give everything we got. So, I went out and at the start of that podcast, this is before he even declared when we recorded it, then he declared, and I said, "I'm here with the next president of the United States." Everybody's like, no way, he has no chance. And I just heard from my good friend who's in PR and likes gambling, that he's recently in the last month gone from a 50 to one underdog to a 10 to one underdog. So now, my statement is a little less crazy. But where it intersects with you is very quickly after I recorded the podcast, I was like, all right, who are the people that I need to call right away to see if we can get support? Who are the allies that I need to call? I was like, "I've got to fucking call Charles." And I'm in the middle of an Ayahuasca retreat in Soltara, in between sits. My brains are scrambled, but I'm like, "I've got to call Charles." And I call you, I'm like, "Hey, man, I really have this amazing feeling about Bobby as president. I really think if you were able to offer your support, it'd be--" And you're like, "Yeah, already doing it. I'm already there. I'm already on it." And I was like, "Oh, thank God." Like it was just this huge moment of relief, to know that you had aligned your efforts and intentions. And really, one of the things about you and people who've heard our podcast before, you've had a consistent prayer to be put to good use. And this is one of the best causes that I've seen that could create the biggest impact. And it was just, there was a deep, deep sigh of gratitude, relief, excitement, enthusiasm, just knowing that you had put your efforts behind his campaign, and that you felt aligned with some of these things that I believed. And since that conversation, it's only your role advising him and messaging and communication, and all that you have to offer has only expanded. So that brings us to, part of the reason why we're here is to talk about, all right, how does this presidential campaign, even if it's just a campaign, just entering in the conversation, or potential victory, contribute to that more beautiful world our hearts know is possible? How do you see this playing out in all of those different ways? And what does that world look like with Bobby Kennedy as president?
CHARLES: Yeah. I think you actually hit on a key point when you said, when you mentioned the paradox, that he's going to be president. And that doesn't mean that we can sit back and let it happen. Because the impact, the change that his presidency represents co-resonates with an evolution of society, and of our consciousness. It's not going to happen outside of ourselves. And I don't want to make him into some heroic figure, it's actually a bit of the opposite. It's that the field from which someone like him could even be elected, has to change. The existing political atmosphere of this country is not conducive to somebody with actual integrity, who's actually authentic. And a lot of the things you said, like a good listener. And someone who just doesn't want to posture, and doesn't try to figure out what people want to hear and then say that. He doesn't do politics as normal. So, for him to be successful not doing politics as normal, means that people are going to have to respond to that, rather than responding in the way that they have been trained to respond to ordinary politicians who emit a constant stream of lies that no one even believes. But it's like this signal of, oh, serious politician, it's all about signals, and spin, and messaging. What about actually communicating what you actually think? And so, sometimes I advise him, I'm like, just put everything on the table, like everything that you're supposed to do as a politician. Think through that again. For example, you're supposed to have a plan, you're supposed to have the answers. But wouldn't it be refreshing for a politician to say, I really don't know what to do about health care. Some people say this, some people say that.
AUBREY: It's a complex puzzle.
CHARLES: Yeah, and there's conflicting values here. Gun control, abortion, whatever the issue is, what if you actually don't know? Because a lot of people don't know. I don't know what to do about some of these issues. So maybe the first, maybe if you already think that you know, that's actually a liability. That's actually an impediment to thinking outside the box, and sourcing something that is outside the existing terms of debate.
AUBREY: It's almost like an I don't know, not from ignorance, but an I don't know, from humility and respect for the complexity of these multifaceted issues, right? Just say, I don't know, but I'm going to listen as best I can to everybody in the field. I mean, this is the nature of the archetype of a good king. What's the archetype of a good king? The one who listens to the people, and really, really listens, and listens to the best advisors, and is able to sort out the advisors who have their own gains and agendas and plans that they want. I mean, we've seen that in all of the Disney movies and everybody, there's the bad advisor that just wants power, wants this manipulation or that, and be able to sort those out. And like, who are the genuine people who are really helping you think through these complicated issues? Which is why when anybody asked me about well, I don't know if I agree with Bobby on climate or that, I'm like--
CHARLES: I mean there's a lot of issues I don't agree with him on. Just because I'm on the campaign doesn't mean that I agree with him about everything.
AUBREY: But the thing is, like agreeing with him, even in itself is almost a false proposition. Because what I'm agreeing with is I'm agreeing with a man who's willing to evolve his opinion. You know what I mean? So it's like, where he stands now, it may be this way. He may be thinking about things this way. But surely, he's going to be surrounded by people who are even smarter and wiser and listen to more people as his audience and platform grows. So he's in the evolution of thought and understanding. And that's what I believe in. And that's what I agree with. It may turn out in the end that there's like, I would have gone this way, and he would have gone this way. But I would trust him to be able to sit around the table like he's going to do tomorrow, and be like, "Yeah, Aubrey, I see your point, man," and this is the way I see it, but I respect your opinion, but this is the way I think is best. I'd be like, alright, I see that too.
CHARLES: Yeah. He doesn't surround himself with sycophants and yes men. So, it actually encourages me that he values my advice, even though we don't agree on certain issues. And there are others in the close circle that are similar. And yeah, maybe someday an issue will come up that's so important to me, that I have to part ways. That could happen. It's not that the issues are irrelevant, but our society is facing changes that are so profound that they don't fit into the categories of the issues. And we're going to need somebody who can enter into that, I call it the fertile ground of bewilderment. And not too quickly default to a simplistic solution that comes from old reflexes. We are in for quite a roller coaster ride, we're starting to see signs of it.
AUBREY: Yeah, it's just ramping up. I mean, that's for sure. And so, what do you rely on in the field of bewilderment? You rely on values. Values and first principles really are to me, in my mind, is what forms a foundation, which is honesty, integrity, care, love. Those values are the things that are actually going to be the only things that are clear when everything gets foggy, and you're lost in the wilderness, what do you come back to? If I'm in a psychedelic journey, and I'm in a fucking crazy place where everything up is down and left is right, and light is dark, and dark is light, and I'm confused, I go back to the pillar of, alright, I just have to love my way out of this. I just have to love my way out of this. Whatever I can love. And I'll love my way out of this mess. So it pushes me back to the core values. And that's, I think something we've never seen in politics is someone who is value driven, bound by values rather than issues and ideologies and reflexes. And I see that in him. I see him as a person, a man of value.
CHARLES: He's a man who's had humbling experiences in his life, tragedies, that I think, have convinced him that he's no better than any other man. Like the values you mentioned, pretty much everybody says that they have those values. So, I think it's not so much a matter of principle, but rather, the life experiences that have driven those principles into your cells.
AUBREY: Right, because gnosis, yeah.
CHARLES: Again, okay, here's a question that I got asked by one of my readers. They're like, “Charles, so many idealistic people, they step into the political world, and they are corrupted. They become a creature of the system that they entered in order to change. What makes you think you're so different?” And I said, “I'm not different”. And if I am able to go into that world and not become a creature of that world, it will be because of the lifeline that connects me to a bigger world, a realer world. And the people who hold me in a bigger story than the one that the world of politics and power offers. Because the world of politics and power and money, it's very intoxicating. It has its own logic, it has its own vocabulary, it has its own set of perceptions. And you enter into that world, without even realizing it, you start to take it on. That's why it's so important to have, so, psychedelic, you've been mentioning psychedelics. That's one lifeline to connect to a bigger reality to stay honest.
AUBREY: Accountability, yeah, for sure.
CHARLES: Because a reality is held by a group. It's just human nature. Every time I do public speaking, and maybe even to some extent in this conversation right now, I'm not just transmitting information. In everything I say, there is always a question. The question is, right? Am I crazy here? Do you resonate with this? And so, I look at your face, I sense the energy in the room, I hear the laughter, or the tears. And that helps me more deeply inhabit and receive the field of information that I am speaking from. Because the very definition of insanity is to hold a reality that's different from everybody else. I'm hearing voices, I'm seeing things, how do I know what's real? I turned to my brother, "Did you see that? Have you thought that?" So, that's what I do in my job that I had before, before this. And, I'm keeping that thread alive also, in order that I can actually stay sane, and not become a creature of the system that I'm entering to change. And I think that if I have a strong enough tether to a bigger reality, then instead of becoming its creature, it will migrate over into the consciousness, and into the mythology, into the story, that we on the margins have been preparing for a long time, and that is arising in humanity. Not just people in the psychedelic world, or the consciousness world, but it's actually creeping in everywhere. You can have, easily a situation where every single person on the campaign has experienced psychedelics and other technologies of consciousness. Yet, when they are in the logic of a political campaign, it's like they forget about all that. That can happen to anybody. It's not like I'm the only guy coming in there from a different worldview. In order not to default into political thinking, as it has been conceived in the past, it requires an effort of will. That's one ingredient. And the other ingredient is a community, and help. So I'm like, yeah, I'm not different. I need help. And thank you for being part of the community that will help me stay sane.
AUBREY: Yeah. That's a beautiful point. I mean, what are the things that hold us accountable to our highest timeline in our path? What are the things? Well, psychedelic medicine is one of those things, because I get on the mat, and ayahuasca ruthlessly shows me every little way that I've been a dick to anybody in the slightest way, by not responding to somebody's inquiry or forgetting about this one thing. It's just meticulous, showing me. And then I come out of it, and I have a list of to-dos that hopefully gets shorter and shorter, and has, as my life has gone on. Because it's training me in deeper awareness, deeper levels of kindness. So, that's one tool. Community is another. Having real peers. And the danger of somebody being in power is they create a field of distortion around them, where people are afraid to be honest with them. But you have to find those ways and those friends that are really comfortable and safe enough to know that they can say whatever, and they're not going to be kicked out of the circle, or they're not going to be outcast from your kingdom, so to speak. You may have a great kingdom, so people want to stay in, but just that they trust that they can share whatever they feel, and you can share with them. That's essential. And then some connection to a higher power, whether that's just Nature, like in the natural world. I heard an amazing story from one of Bobby's sons, from Finn, about one of his favorite moments of his dad. And his dad was up in his study, up in his library, and he was laying down on the couch. And apparently, he's not the strongest technophile, he doesn't have, but he has one app that he really loves. It's like iNature, where you can take pictures of different insects and creatures, and then catalog them, and keep score of how many creatures that you've seen by going on walks and hikes. And he was just cracking up laughing, because it's a community in there. And somebody was trying to say that this picture they had was a green beetle. And Bobby was like, clearly, that's not a green beetle, that's a this and this beetle, and he's just cracking up. And he brings his son in to show him, and it was just, it was so endearing. It's such a simple little story, but it shows like, it's somebody who actually is connected to the field, connected to the field of the environment, connected to the field of all life, different life forms, even the little beetles, he's paying enough attention. And attention is, it's care, they matter. I really feel like he would be bummed out if the green beetle didn't exist, even though it's just a beetle, let alone all the magnificent creatures that everybody cares about. But he's like, it's those things where it feels like he's connected to a higher source. And he's comfortable calling that source God, I am as well. Of course, we each have to require our own redefinition based on thousands of years of church dogma, but God or a higher power source or nature. And I think those three things are really necessary to kind of help you manage the perils and pitfalls and seduction of power. And to me, it feels like he has an environment around him and nature about him, that checks all three of those boxes. He's willing to be friends, he's willing to have brothers who can, and brothers that will tell him the truth. He's connected to, he doesn't have the psychedelic connection, but he's connected to that higher power. And I think, even without the psychedelic connection, there's a kind of almost self-analysis and almost like ability for him to look and see, did I do this? Did I do this according to my own ethics and code? And he just uses his own meditative contemplative practice. I prefer to use psychedelic methodologies, but he's been on a different path and a different program, but it's beautiful. But it's like the self-review, the community review, and then the higher power that you have some kind of access to. And that, I think, is why I believe that he won't be corrupted by power, and he won't be seduced into being something that we've seen over and over again. It's just that he's got the ballast, he's got the protection.
CHARLES: Yeah, you know, it's not all or nothing being corrupted by power. I mean, I can say that you and I are both corrupted by power on a subtle level, or maybe not so subtle. But it's like part of the corruption of power is our perception of who and what is important, and who and what is not. So, in the political world, the pressure to conform to conventional views of power and importance is almost irresistible. Like, somebody has a million followers, well, they're important. Someone has a billion dollars, well, they're important. Because they're going to bring people to my campaign, they're going to bring money to my campaign, they can do this for me. Whereas a typical voter who might be an Uber driver, or a daycare worker, or a home health care worker who makes $12 an hour, and has very small following on social media, they're not considered important. And on a spiritual level, we maybe understand the importance of everybody, and intuitively, sense another matrix of causality that does not depend on the things that we see conventionally as important and powerful. But to bridge that knowledge into the political realm is very difficult. It requires when the mind is very much steeped in that understanding of cause and effect of power. In order to do something else, you have to listen to something besides the mind. You have to listen to your instincts. You have to listen to your gut. And I've seen him do that sometimes, and maybe not others, And I mean, I noticed myself too. If I'm invited onto your podcast, which has, I don't know how many viewers but a lot, or somebody who's just, hey, I'm just starting a new podcast, I have 50 downloads. I'm like, probably, honestly, I'm probably going to be on yours. Although sometimes I just get this feeling, and I just don't care how many followers you have. And honestly, I'm not really on this, because you got a lot of followers. We have a--
AUBREY: Yeah, a deep friendship. I think it's a beautiful point. And it's important, I think, that part of the resistance to seduction by power is to acknowledge the seduction of power that's already in existence. And I wasn't intuitive to think about it. But of course, it's right.
CHARLES: And also, the falsity of the logic of power. Because it is not actually true. People do extraordinary things, by trusting their instincts. And they follow this path that you could not possibly map out in advance. And it just turns out that this person who looked like an inconsequential daycare worker turns out to be connected to just the person you had to meet, and you walk this invisible path to achieve things that are beyond the capacity of a plan. Because a plan depends on what you can predict. It depends on what you already know about how the world works. And one thing that we're learning in these times is that, I mean, it's coming up in a lot of ways. I was thinking of the whole UFO thing, what we're learning
AUBREY: Oh, we'll get to that.
CHARLES: Yeah. I mean, what we're learning is that there's an awful lot more to reality than we've been told, and more than we've been telling ourselves.
AUBREY: I mean, you can't live in a world where you've seen synchronicities, and coincidences, quote, so many times. And this is one of the topics that you love talking about, going to a festival is going to a synchronicity machine, basically, where you're opening yourself to the universe. Burning Man or something like that. Where you don't know who anybody is and you're in the dusk, and you just bump into somebody, and it's like, holy shit, and this connection happens. It's where I met my wife through a series of crazy coincidences, that she happened to be in my camp, and all kinds of wild things happen. And so, it's both using strategy and having a plan and acknowledging that that's necessary. And also, listening for the whisper, the whisper that comes from an intuition that I listen to when I'm looking at my DMs on Instagram. Lots of people say, I know, you'll never respond to this, but blah, blah, blah, and a lot of times, they're right. But every once in a while, there'll be that one person, where I'll write them 300 words or something in response.
CHARLES: Yeah, I do that too.
AUBREY: And I carry on a dialogue. And they'll be like, "Wow." And I don't know why, it's just like that, maybe it was something I felt. And same with other people in other situations, where usually someone tries to talk to me on a plane, and I'll be like, I've got to get into this thing. And then sometimes I'll just have this feeling. And it doesn't always pan out into something that I noticed. But I'm always trying to listen to that. And I think that's kind of the best we can do, is to have our plan and have our prioritization and have our, because we have to be able to utilize our time, which is in scarcity somewhat, you can expand and contract it slightly based on your energy, attention, focus, etc. But time is marching on.
CHARLES: Yeah, it's not about not having a plan, I mean, sometimes your intuition says, make a plan and execute it. Like, if you get addicted to a plan, and when your instinct tells you now is the time to let go, but you're uncomfortable with that so you make a plan anyway, and follow the plan and it becomes an obstacle to walking the invisible path, then that habit becomes an impediment.
AUBREY: Yeah. I can just imagine that there'll be those choices that will come up in the campaign where it'll be like, alright, go to this city, because this is the highest concentration of voters and he'll have a feeling, like, I want to go to the res in South Dakota, like I just, I want to go there. And he'll hear a whisper or something. I'm just making this up. You know what I mean? But not a lot of politicians are spending a lot of time on the rest, because there's not a lot of high concentration of voters in the Dakotas, right? But maybe he'll just have that, nah, instead of New York, I'm going to go here. And I believe he's like, I just believe that about him. It's the same thing about the green beetle. Like most people just care about, I saw the eagle or the tiger, but he's interested in the complexity, and the dynamics. Just like his father was. I mean, I think there was a beautiful video that was just put out, just showed his father doing something similar, really being of the people, of all people.
CHARLES: Yeah. I mean, there definitely is that part of him that does that. And then there's, he's also a person of this world and of his time, and very much now, in the world of electoral politics.
AUBREY: He's got to be.
CHARLES: I'm just wondering, I'm just one of the people who influenced him. And while you were talking, I'm like, yeah, I'd really like to help and support him, do more of that, listen to that more. Well, how can I do that when there's so many other voices and so many other pressures in his schedule, and this media and that media, and can you do an interview here and interview there? And fundraisers and all that. How am I going to bring that? And I realized that actually I have to do the same thing. But then that brings up okay, my default, sometimes is to hang back, to wait to be invited, to wait to be asked, not to speak up, not to assert myself. Is that because, yeah, sometimes it's because it doesn't serve to push, but sometimes, maybe it's because I'm afraid to push. So that's one thing that I've been looking at in my work. When do I trust the flow of life that puts me at the right place at the right time? And when do I make shit happen?
AUBREY: This reminds me of, I don't think we talked about this on a podcast. I think I just read your essay, "I Like to Fight".
CHARLES: Yeah, I don't know if we talked about it in the podcast or not.
AUBREY: I think we just talked about it on a phone call or something. So you went to Sacred Sons, and you got to put on the boxing gloves. And you realize, there was a fight in you that maybe you've been holding back a little bit. And actually, when you got into it, you were like, yeah, I like to fight. It seems like one of those things. Like you said yes to Sacred Sons, and you got to feel the feeling of what sacred combat with brothers who loved each other, and were competing in this way to actually make each other better, allow something to emerge. A beautiful process. We do it in Fir For Service with kendo sticks, just so there's no damage to the head or whatever. But with same idea. And there's a part of this campaign that's a fight. And that's one thing about Bobby too, is he's a fighter.
CHARLES: He's a fighter, yeah.
AUBREY: He's willing to stand against all of, and take all of the arrows and all of the shots and have people throwing all the rocks at them. And he's willing to stand and fight. And this campaign is a fight. I mean, everybody, I mean, I've taken him for coming out and making a stand. Every time I make a post, there's a volley of arrows and attacks, but also overwhelming support too. I mean, I was expecting more. I was like, here it comes. It's going to be like Darius and it's going to be like, "My arrows will blot out the sun," or whatever. "Well, we'll fight in the shade." But actually, it's been pretty sunny. Oh, here's an arrow. Here's a thing.
CHARLES: Yeah. I mean, I was expecting uniform hostility and derision from the mainstream media. And it has not been uniform. Like there have been some outlets that, I mean, they interviewed him, they asked tough questions, they played hardball, but they weren't completely . They were at least, they gave him a hearing. They said some nice things about him. I think that it's a mistake to see any institution as monolithic. That kind of us versus them thinking that paints the world in black and white terms. And says, well, okay, the CIA, they're evil, the World Economic Forum that's evil. Like this whole habit of dividing the world into good and evil is a form of fundamentalism that is at the root of the incredibly destructive polarization that is ripping apart society. That habit of how do I understand something? Divide it into the good and the bad. That mental habit is tearing our society apart. So, I like to hold space for redemption, for transformation. Like, instead of saying, oh, well, you're a shill for Big Pharma, and the defense industry, etc. and to say, that is what you are, even in my mind, it basically denies any possibility of transformation. The story that we hold about somebody's powerful. You know that as a leader. If you hold a story that somebody can transcend their circumstances, that somebody can win a victory, that somebody can overcome their illness, and you're there for them. And when they say, "No, I can't do it," you say, "No, you can, I know you can."
AUBREY: I've seen it.
CHARLES: That's powerful. A negative story is just as powerful. To say you can't, you're helpless, you'll never heal, you'll never transform, you'll never win. And that is what is a normal story to hold about our opponents, to hold about whole countries. And it doesn't mean being blind to the damage that that people are causing, and the terrible things that they're doing, and the negative motivations that they may have. But it's not to limit them.
AUBREY: Yeah, it's not to reduce who they are to the actions that, it's to disambiguate the two things, and also see, really, that the place of the unconditionality of love has been something I've been able to deepen and explore. And it's to see somebody all the way down to the source, and see that there's a light and there's like a static electricity that's moving, and it's pushing them. And sometimes it's bending into darker impulses, and there's forces that are kind of pulling and pushing us all different ways. Like one of those Tesla coils that are shooting out just static electricity, sometimes it's leading towards pretty gnarly things and destruction. And sometimes it's leading towards beauty. But at the core of the Tesla coil, at the nucleus, is the source that we all carry, and we all share. And for whatever reason, the affect, the way the electricity is going, their personality, their actions is moving in another way. But if you trace it all the way back, you'll trace it back to a core source. And that's the source of redemption in this kind of unconditionality of love, as well as the discretion to say, hey, your electricity, your this, it's destroying a bunch of the environment, it's destroying a bunch of people's sovereignty, you're colonizing human bodies for your own profit and your own greed. That's not cool. But there's another way, there's an opportunity for redemption and I see it. And I see that path for you, no matter what you've done, and no matter, it's kind of reversing the sunk cost fallacy, methodology. I've already been this way. No, it's okay. You can be forgiven and actually change course and say, I was under a strange delusion, and I caused a lot of harm. I see that now and shift. If we don't hold that story about people, it's not possible.
CHARLES: There's no chance. Yeah, if we don't hold that story, then the only chance is that good overcomes evil in pitched battle. But evil is better at battle. The only way that it changes is if some of whom we considered evil, stopped doing what they're doing. Where they stopped doing it so efficiently, because they have doubts. And maybe they still go to work in their corporate office, but they start to go through the motions, instead of to really aggressively develop new lithium mines. They're just not efficient anymore. They're halfhearted in their advocacy of the policies. Maybe they don't have the courage to step out and say, "No, this is wrong." But there's something stirring within them, a protest. Even to a certain extent, addiction, depression, and mental illness is a form of protest. It says that your being is not unified in its expression. Some part of me does not want to do what the rest of me is doing. So, that can manifest as procrastination. A lot of what we see is the problem, or the illness is actually health seeking to express itself. And so I think that that's a much more realistic formula for change that people have a change of heart. And then the question is, okay, how do we create conditions for a change of heart?
AUBREY: Yeah. One of the things you pointed out, I was obviously a massive fan of "Avatar 1". And you actually pointed out, you're like, yeah, but it's telling a story that's actually not helpful. And the story is that the animals are going to come together, and the people with the bows are going to come together, and they're going to defeat the destruction bomb machines, by some active--
CHARLES: They're going to defeat the machine guns with their spears.
AUBREY: Yeah, this romanticized idea of good overcoming evil in pitch battle from sheer, and it's a beautiful thing, like the warrior spirit and the connection to Eywa. There's a lot of beauty in that as well, and heroism and romanticism. But I actually saw that and I was like, "Yeah, you're right, it's actually telling the wrong story." And then I watched "Avatar 2", I don't know, did you see "Avatar 2"?
CHARLES: No, I was forewarned.
AUBREY: But they just fucking doubled down on that same mentality. And I was like, man, what a miss. What a miss that they couldn't convince the whalers that these beautiful creatures that they were whaling were as sentient and magical and important as they were. Instead, they had to sink the ships and slaughter the people.
CHARLES: Yeah, the film just encourages us to think the problem is these horrible people. Now, what happens when that is applied to foreign policy?
AUBREY: War.
CHARLES: War. And the whole machinery and agenda of war, that's like the spiritual and philosophical basis for the neocon long game of, first, destabilizing and destroying Iran, then Russia, then China. I mean, they wrote about these plans 30 years ago, and have been executing it step by step. Not with a lot of success. But--
AUBREY: That hasn't stopped them from trying.
CHARLES: Hasn't stopped them from trying, and it could escalate into nuclear conflict. And I can understand it, from their view, it's what I just described. To understand a situation, first, identify who's the evil, and who's the good. Once you've started with that, okay, you're always the good, right? You're never evil. So, it's whoever stands in the way of your domination, they're evil. Because your domination is good, because you're the good guy. So, the more power you have, the better for everybody.
AUBREY: Problem is everybody thinks they're the good guy.
CHARLES: Well, everybody does. Yeah. So that mindset leads inevitably to polarization. And that mindset ultimately comes from a faulty view of the human being, which is in Christianity in the form of original sin. That you are fundamentally evil. It's in biology in the idea of a selfish gene that, at bottom, everybody is just seeking to maximize their reproductive self-interest. It's woven deep into the meta religion of our time, which encompasses what we call religion, as well as science. It's a very deep mindset. It's a mindset of conquest. And so, everything we're seeing in global affairs today, and in domestic politics, this widening division and intensifying polarization, all comes from what you might call a spiritual error, or a spiritual journey that we've taken into separation. And so when you ask, what does a Kennedy administration look like, for it to even happen, or for it to be anything that I would support, it has to tap into this transition, into a story where we no longer hold each other in that way. It's just what we were talking about, to see something else, and to be able to stand in that on behalf of our fellows, and to receive their holding of us because it is so insidious. I don't know if you've had these moments, where I look at the choices I made in life and it seems like every single one of them was selfish. Maybe I was pretending to be loving and generous and something, but I was actually on some level calculating what's in it for me. And when I'm in that mindset, it seems so inarguably true. And I'm just like, I'm like the most evil human being in the world, and too cowardly to actually commit acts of murder and mayhem, like real psychopaths. So I'm evil and a coward at the same time. And it becomes this totalizing reality. Usually, it's only when an act of love pierces that, and when somebody sees my beauty, and my love. Then it reminds me, it ignites my own knowledge that I too, am a divine being. That's what we have to do for each other. And I don't think that anything less than this kind of revolution will be enough to motivate a new politics.
AUBREY: Yeah, these are these principles, which is also why I was so excited to have you in the close inner circle with Bobby. Because these are the principles that are part of the new story, which is the more beautiful world. The more beautiful world is the new story. It's a new story about a new human and a new humanity, as my teacher Marc Gafni always says. A new story about a new human and a new humanity. And that's the more beautiful world. And the grasp that you have, and many of us feel in our own body and understand in our own way, is so important, because it isn't about, just politics and these things. It isn't about, oh, I'm dovish, I'm antiwar. No, it's actually understanding the fundamental cause, like the desire for war, where people are coming from, what they're feeling, where they're not feeling safe, what their ideals are, and then actually making decisions based upon a new fundamental set of beliefs. And that has to come in, and as you said, it has to rise as a movement of consciousness. And so, it's one of the reasons why people say, I can't believe you're getting into politics, don't you know politics doesn't matter. This is all just like a fucking farce. It's all a game. It only matters, I'm like, you guys are wildly underestimating what it would be like to have a leader who was telling a narrative of a new story, just like you wildly underestimate the importance of a movie like "Avatar" if it made a different choice, and told a different story. Telling a different story, from a platform where everybody listens, they can't censor State of the Union addresses, and he delivers these speeches that really land and they hit somewhere in some people. That changes the world in and of itself. And that's why, even in that reality, in that timeline where he doesn't win, but he gets in there, and he's giving speeches and people are listening, the story is shifting. The story is changing. So it's not a binary win loss. Well, if he doesn't win, we've failed. Every step he takes, every speech that he gives, every message that he transmits, from the bigger platforms that he transmits, the better and closer we are to this new story that we're all trying to build.
CHARLES: I just went on this little fantasy about a totally different kind of State of the Union address, where it's not about economic statistics and policies, but he's like, I'm going to convey the State of the Union through eight stories that I have gathered for ordinary people. One of them is a farmer who just went bankrupt in Kansas. One of them is a grandmother from Watts, whose son just got beaten up by the police and is in prison. Eight stories like that. One is a CEO of a large company, whose daughter just went to rehab for the third time. That might convey the actual state of the union better than any statistics or metrics.
AUBREY: Yeah, these stories, I mean, the stories are powerful. And someone who's living, living as the embodiment of a new story, and then sharing the stories is, I think people wildly underestimate the power of that, and the power of, because really, we're all a living story. We're our own hero's tale, of what we've overcome and the challenges that we face and how we've lived and how we've stood. And these stories being conveyed, embodied, really mean a lot. And yes, there's going to be political decisions, and there's going to be bills, and there's going to be executive orders, and there's going to be all of this stuff. But to have somebody embodying a new story, and a new story of hope, because that's one thing you talked about. You wrote another beautiful essay about when kind of hope really died in a certain way when JFK was killed, and I forgot the title of that essay. But it was like this moment where it was like, oh, shit, like the story changed. But this could rewrite that story.
CHARLES: Yeah. Everything that I'm saying here, I'm describing the highest possibility of a Kennedy presidency. It may be fulfilled 100%. He may get elected and fulfill at 50%. Or, I mean, he's a sovereign being. He might make choices that are profoundly disappointing, and he fulfills at 0%. But I do see the possibility of a radical healing of the trauma that America suffered on November 22, 1963. And, the reconnection of the present to a past timeline that was truncated at that moment. because, 1963, America was at the peak of its power. Something like nearly half of all industrial production in the world was happening in this country. We had limitless wealth. We had some problems. But the civil rights movement was underway. The women's rights movement was underway. We were going to fix those problems. And we were going to unwind American militarism. JFK wanted to get out of Vietnam, he wanted to support revolutionary movements around the world to throw off the yoke of colonialism. He didn't want to just take over the British Empire. He wanted to disband it. And he wanted to loosen the grip of the military industrial complex--
AUBREY: And all the alphabet agencies too.
CHARLES: All that stuff, and he was assassinated. And that timeline got cut short, we entered Vietnam, and the forever wars ever since. And all of that money, and all of that effort, and all that attention that could have gone toward healing our problems, was directed toward violence. And the core of our society began rotting out from the inside, to the point where most people today say that they are worse off than their parents were. And even their grandparents. In 1963, that was impossible to conceive. Just as it was impossible to conceive that the government would ever lie to us. So, JFK got assassinated. And the root of the poison was that we swallowed the lie, that it was a lone gunman, a crazed gunman. When you accept a lie that deep down you know is a lie, it poisons everything. And the result is that we now swim in a matrix, in an ocean of lies. Where it's unremarkable, like no one even bats an eyelid when the government lies to us. It's routine.
AUBREY: This is coming out as, obviously, during the pandemic, both of us were vocal from our own perspective about the things that we saw that we just didn't agree with, that didn't make sense to us. Things that were said, things that were done, things that were, and as every new thing comes out, I just recently, yesterday, saw something where the maybe former or current FDA administrator was like, “yeah, the six feet of social distancing thing, that was completely arbitrary. We just made that shit up.” You know what I mean? And that should sing around the world, and people should be like, "How fucking dare they?" But actually, we've swallowed so many lies, it's like, whatever. That was just another one. And as each one of these new things comes out, people are like, eh. It's almost like this complacency and hopelessness that's part of swallowing that lie. It's this feeling like, it'll never be different, it'll never be better. And that's exactly what that force of empire wants. They want us to be disempowered, they want us to be hopeless. They want the lies that they tell not to be mattered and not to rile us up, and not to have us go, "How fucking dare you? How dare you?"
CHARLES: Right. And to say that, because the maintenance of the status quo does not actually depend on people believing the lies. The lies still work even if nobody believes them. All that is necessary is for it to look like everybody believes them. It's the emperor's new clothes. Every single person saw that he actually had no clothes, and privately considered that fact, but did not dare speak out because anyone who spoke out would be accused of being a fool.
AUBREY: At the very least. I mean, a fool is a euphemism for the things that were lobbed at us for talking.
CHARLES: Yeah, you would just see it. I mean, you speak out on certain things, it'll destroy your career. Same thing with UFOs. Numerous, innumerable scientists and citizens who spoke out, whistleblowers, their careers were destroyed. And the government said, this is a hoax, this is a conspiracy theory. All the while knowing that these reports were genuine. So, now, it's come out, credible whistleblowers, Navy reports and stuff like that. But none of these people have been rehabilitated. So...
AUBREY: Yeah, there's no recompensation for what they've lost, or even an acknowledgement, like, hey, sorry about that dishonorable discharge for that report that you shared because you just couldn't help it.
CHARLES: And the reputations of people who questioned Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, who questioned COVID lockdowns, who questioned UFOs, whatever it is, when they are proven right, their reputation does not recover. They still carry the air of disrepute, because what they proved is that they are not a team player. They proved that they're different, they're the weird kid. So the people who stay in positions of power are the ones who propagated the lies. They still have the credibility. And again, it's like not that they actually have credibility. Nobody actually respects the talking heads on CNN, not in the way like when I was a kid, like we respected Walter Cronkite. He had real credibility. Maybe not deservedly. But people actually trusted him. Not anymore. And this is like the public participation in the pretense that allows the pretense to be maintained.
AUBREY: You mentioned the UFOs. And we wanted to get there anyway. So, we might as well take that, and discuss it. Because, again, I was talking to my good friend who runs a PR agency. He's always looking at media news. And actually, he wasn't by any stretch of the imagination an anti-vaxxer. But he understands how policy is put through media when it's bullshit. And he just, he has a sense for that. He has a sense for spin. He has a sense for when they actually don't have the facts to back it up. And so, he saw how it was actually being disseminated. He's like, I don't know anything about the science. I don't know anything about mRNA. And actually, I think, everything I've known says vaccines are great. However, he could sense that there was some bullshit in the matrix. And so, he steered clear of it and is grateful that he did, just because he had that sense. And what he was saying to me yesterday, interestingly, is that what he's tracking in the media is that there's a preparation that's happening. And what he's feeling is there's a preparation for disclosure, that actually things are coming out softly, and in a way that's just kind of warming up the field for an imminent disclosure, like a proper full on disclosure, acknowledgement, but in a way, where it's not going to be so shocking and surprising anymore, because they've kind of actually warmed the field up.
CHARLES: Yeah, I don't think it's that deliberate. I think there's something very mysterious going on here. UFOs had to be on the sidelines of reality for a long time, because as a society, we had not yet come to a place where we could accept this extreme disruption of our dominant paradigms. The behavior of UFOs simply does not fit into standard physics. And, also the loss of our idea of our own primacy, we were not ready for that. So, they had to stay in the realm of fiction. You can't really fully understand the UFO phenomenon if you're too attached to objective reality. The rational mind would like to think that independent of our beliefs and perceptions, there is a fact of the matter. Either that UFO landed and abducted that person at point X,Y,Z on the map at time T, or it did not. Either there is a secret program to reverse engineer captured alien craft in the dark ops of the Pentagon or there isn't. But that objectivist worldview is actually nonsense in quantum mechanics, where you say, well, regardless of our measurement of that particle, either it was or it was not at that slit rather than the other slit. No, wrong. And philosophically, we've consigned such weirdness to the microcosm. But it at least suggests another way of looking at things where the factualness of UFOs is connected to our own consciousness. And that as our consciousness evolves, the ETs become more and more able to penetrate into consensus reality. So, we see this change now. The percentage of Americans who profess to believe in extraterrestrial origin of UFOs has gone up considerably in the last five years. It used to be like 40%, five or 10 years ago, and now it's like 60%, or something like that. So, the field of acceptance, this is not just that more evidence has come in. And it's not because people are being, in my view, expertly manipulated by deliberate, slow leak of information. It's because the field of consciousness has come to a point where that information is erupting through the cracks. Like people have been whistle blowing, and credible people have been speaking out about it for a long time. But they weren't believed. People weren't ready to believe them, or they would believe them, but compartmentalize that belief. Because their dominant reality was unable to accommodate that information. And we see this all the time, like you can have a religious experience, you can experience a miracle, you can witness an incredible healing, you can witness it, you can see a UFO, you can hear Malidoma Somé talk about initiation rituals among the Dagara, and describe things that are so far outside of our conventional beliefs about what's possible, that, I mean, it's jaw dropping, and you believe him, you don't think he's making it up, you should listen to the audiobook, which is him actually telling the story of "Water in The Spirit" it's called. And in that moment, you know that he is speaking the truth. So, if you haven't had the experience directly. But many of us have had experiences directly that are flagrantly in violation of everything we were told is real. But even second hand, what do you do with that information? When you go back to work, it just doesn't fit into the structures that we live in and into the social structures, into the belief structures. So we put it in the margins. Today, those structures are dissolving. And that allows this new information to penetrate deeper into the collective mind and deeper into our own minds. And once we accept that reality, everything changes.
AUBREY: I had an interview with Dean Radin. And he's really spent his life studying the science of magic. And he talked about giving a lecture to a group of physicists. It was about magic. Now, collectively, publicly, they all are like, this is all bullshit, this isn't real. Newtonian physics all the way, there's no field, there's no collective consciousness or some Sheldrakian morphic resonance field. It's all bullshit. But then he privately asked them, "Okay, so I understand, I understand your official, but in your own life, how many of you have experienced something that defied what this consensus reality is?" People got a little shifty, and all the hands just started to quietly raise, that they'd each experienced something in their life that they couldn't fucking explain. But the consensus reality was something far different. And I think it speaks to this collective belief field. The only area that I would want to kind of explore deeper is, because I've had experiences with alien crafts. I've had them mostly on psychedelics. I haven't seen any in my sober waking consciousness, any of those experiences. But I was recently in the Temple of Osiris. There was a guidance from an Egyptian priestess who's saying there's a craft that's going to come, and we're in the dark of the Holy of Holies in the temple. And sure enough, this fucking craft comes in my consciousness and I step inside, and I get given this gift where I'm able to, my third eye just pops open and I'm able to see realities into existence. It was a crazy experience. So, those were like this extra dimensional, extra-terrestrial kind of ET, kind of phenomena, like extra dimensional. And that, to me, is certain. Where the question for me comes is, alright, did something physical, and has something physical been crashing and interacting in places? Or has it not been physical, has it just been extra dimensional? And what are the boundary lines that blur between the physical and extra dimensional? Because I'm 100% all in on the extra dimensional conscious beings, for sure. I've been there, seen it, done. End of story, but can they actually crash in the desert and make a divot? You know what I mean? Can they crash in the sand and make a divot? And I think it's likely both, that there's both. But there is some kind of objective reality, to the physicality of something that could crash and break apart and you could hold pieces, and somebody in a black suit could come and say, "Give me that fucking piece back, or you and your family are going to be evaporated.”
CHARLES: So okay, so say for sake of argument that a craft crashed and made a divot in the desert, and scattered pieces, and someone picks them up, and the men in black come and take it away, how do you know that that actually happened? Somebody told you that it happened. Somebody had an experience that they shared with you. The very fact that that report came to you means that this event is intruding into what you're calling objective reality. Just like what I was saying before, like when I speak, I'm also asking for corroboration. Did you see that? That's what makes it real. So...
AUBREY: Sanity is a group project. I remember you saying that in a speech.
CHARLES: Yeah, yeah, actually, I wanted to talk about, I launched an online program called The Sanity Project, that I was maybe going to mention. I'll just detour into that. The idea being that sanity requires that you pull in all of the information, not just part of it, and integrate it all. So, a lot of people fall into despair when they take in the hopelessness of our situation. And it is, in fact, hopeless if you don't incorporate what we're calling miracles. There's just no way, including the miracle of the transformation of the heart, the miracle of a change of heart. That's one of the miracles. When somebody, they're not forced to change, they sacrifice their career, they sacrifice their safety, they sacrifice the reputation, out of love. That is a miracle. Because if you're in the mindset of making somebody do something, you will never make them do that. Because what is making mean? It means you're exerting some kind of pressure, and you're back to Newtonian physics. And you're limited by the amount of force at your disposal. And the bad guys always have more, because self-interest, selfishness is on their side. So, it takes a miracle. Could be a miracle of the heart, it could be a social miracle, it could be a material physical miracle, a miracle of healing. That's the only hope. So when we exclude that from our picture of reality, we are actually insane.
AUBREY: Or very, very sad. And I met some of those people who've run all the algorithms. They've figured it out, it's all doomsday. Every algorithm runs into--
CHARLES: Do their algorithms include extraterrestrial intervention? Do they include--
AUBREY: Yeah, or massive spiritual awakening at a level that transcends what we believe is possible.
CHARLES: Or shamans who can manifest seedlings in their hand. Or like all the stuff that Malidoma Some talks about. I mean, there's so much. I mean, you've read all these books. Do their algorithms take that into account?
AUBREY: Nope. They can't.
CHARLES: They can’t. Right. So that's a form of insanity. And the symptom of that form of insanity is depression and despair. And there are many other forms of insanity. If you keep out all of the bad stuff and only focus on the miracles, that becomes another form of insanity.
AUBREY: Right, which is purely pollyannish. Like, God's going to take care of it all. We don't have to worry about a thing, like...
CHARLES: So anyway, reality is held in community, it's held through relationships. So, in order to hold a bigger reality that includes the pieces that have been missing, which is everything from ecosystem destruction and the horrors that have been perpetrated on this earth, to the most sublime miracles. To hold that big a reality, we have to have ways to look at each other and say, "Do you see that? Is that real?" Yes. Then we hold that bigger reality together. That's what The Sanity Project is about. So, okay, to take it back to UFOs, like you say, well, there's this secret unit inside of another slightly less secret unit inside of the Pentagon, operating in area 51. And you want to prove this, how do you do that? Well, okay, here's some whistleblower stepping forward. But his records have been erased from the military's records. How do you know that he is what he says he is? How do you ever pin it down? Ultimately, you cannot escape from the realm of communication with each other, and the group holding of a belief. And when you understand that, then you can understand some of the weird behavior of extraterrestrial craft and extraterrestrial beings, and missing time, and the sharp right angles that they execute in the sky in complete defiance of Newtonian kinetics. In some sense, they are not in objective reality as we know it. And we will never accept them, they will never become real as long as we don't transcend the mythology, the Cartesian Newtonian mythology that we have inherited, the mythology of modernity, because there is no room in that reality for them. And as I said before, that reality is breaking down.
AUBREY: So, it's almost like in a way, the emergence of Kennedy as president and the emergence of UFOs are both dependent upon the evolution of the field in certain ways.
CHARLES: Yeah. Potentially. And again, like Kennedy is president, which Kennedy is it going to be? Is it going to be his highest and best possible expression? That really depends on everybody. Because each one of us contributes to the field that co-resonates with who this person is, in objective reality, i.e. in our experience, in his intersection with ourselves. So, if we prepare the ground, by, for example, by expecting and demanding the kind of authenticity you were speaking of earlier, and the kind of humility, then it becomes possible. And if we hold a story of cynicism, then we're not making space for that to even happen. And we will get at best a diluted version of what a Kennedy presidency could be. It's not up to him.
AUBREY: Yeah. I mean, there's so many people who desperately want to have hope, and desperately want to believe. And the people who actually it seems to me, and I also kind of feel like you might have written about this too. It might be informing my ideas, and I can't exactly place it but it's this feeling of those who want to believe and want to hope the most are the most scared of it, because they're the most capable of being let down the hardest. So, when I see those people saying there's no hope, there's no chance, what I see as someone who's just desperate to hope, who wants to hope more than anybody else.

CHARLES: Because they've been disappointed and betrayed.
AUBREY: Exactly, and their natural spirit. They've felt the pain of that disappointment and betrayal. Maybe it was with Obama, or maybe it was with Bernie, or maybe, something out of politics or whatever, but they've been hurt and they've been wounded. So they're like, I am never going to fucking hope again. Listen to Dante's, the wisdom above the inferno, abandon hope all ye who enter. That's how I stay safe. And it's this kind of fear of hope. And really like the message that's kind of formulated through me is no, dare to hope, have the courage to hope again. And even if that hope gets dashed, and even if we say, I'm all in and I believe this man, I believe all of this and you do too, and our hope gets dashed, the next time there's another one, we show up, and we fucking hope again. Because it's the only hope we got is just to be willing to put ourselves up for the crucifixion of our hope being dashed. Once again, it's like love. And if you get burned in love, again, show up and just fucking love again.
CHARLES: Hope is actually also an aspect of sanity. Because we can distinguish between authentic hope and wishful thinking. Authentic hope is a premonition of a possibility, of a real possibility. The mind might not recognize the possibility, might not see the path from here to there. But you sense that there is a path. So hope is basically, to accept that and to trust your perception and not gaslight yourself, by telling yourself that what you actually know is false. That's what cynicism does. It's a form of self-gaslighting. This is another part of The Sanity Project. But then to distinguish, what is an authentic premonition of a possibility that involves me? Because possible doesn't mean, well, if you flip a coin 10 times you could get 10 heads, it's possible. That's not what I'm talking about. Possibility means that there is a role for me to play in making it happen. And that if I play that role, it will happen. It's up to my choices. That's what I mean by possibility. So we have an innate orientation toward that. We can recognize when something's possible. And then cynicism says no, no, it's not possible. And then there's also wishful thinking. Which is to pretend that something is possible when it is not right. Usually, it's to pretend that something is possible without my choice, and my consciousness being involved in it. That's wishful thinking.
AUBREY: One of the things that happens on that path is if you're listening, there'll be some interesting synchronistic confirmation of, really feels like God source, the universe, the Weaver, whatever, Wakan Tanka, I don't care, whatever you want to call, but there's like a wink. There's a wink from the universe. And I'm actually going to pull something up. This was actually a text that I sent to Bobby. And this was the wink for me that was really confirmed that this vision that I saw was actually possible. So, we finished the podcast and again, I go into this journey. And I see him winning the presidency, I just fucking saw it. And I saw how powerful that can be, for all of us, for our consciousness, for the world, for our country, for people, for the story. I just could feel it all, and see it all it just played out in front of me. So I sent him a message. I said, “this is Wednesday, March 15. I know this is going to sound wild. But after you and Aaron left, so I was there with Aaron Rodgers who was hanging in and listening in on the podcast, I tapped into my connection with God slash source, which is my way through the medicine. That's my pathway, my bridge, and got an unbelievably clear message that if you run for president, you will win. Because he was still debating at that point. He was thinking he was going to run, you will win. And then if you choose to run, I am to do everything in my power to support you in that campaign with all the resources, allies and intention that I can possibly muster. So, consider this a pledge of my word and my sword whenever it begins, and I put a little sword emoji. Said I really enjoyed sharing time today and having that podcast, have a beautiful night. And he texted me back he goes, “funny, period. Today for unknown reasons, this phrase came into my head, ‘give me a sword and some ground to stand on and we will take back our country’. Thanks for an amazing day, Aubrey”. Because I could be crazy, right? That could be crazy, everybody thinks it's crazy. Like when I said he's going to be president, it was like, no fucking way. The consensus reality around me was like, it's crazy. But instead of actually the people around me, saying and keeping me sane, there was like a wink from the universe at this early stage where I just, I don't always say. I've never said to somebody, I give you my sword. It's a very old thing to say. I have swords, but I don't use them. That's not a thing I would normally say. But I said that thing, and then he said that that phrase came to his mind. And it was just like this wink from the universe. And it was like, you're on the right track, brother. And those things mean a lot when you're listening.
CHARLES: Yeah. These new realities that are held in community, they don't originate in community. They originate in the way that you described, from the outside, from source from God. And in the commitment of community, and the sacrifice for that possibility, the continued participation of God is summoned. That's the only way that it's possible.
AUBREY: Yeah.
CHARLES: When you say, he's going to be president, that was actually not a prediction. It was a prophecy. The difference being that a prediction removes ourselves as agents. He says, well, I've calculated all of the variables in my prediction. But prophecy includes oneself, and fully recognizes the power that we have as participants in creation. So, when you say, you will be president, what you're actually saying is, I bow into service to this authentic possibility, which is not my wishful thinking. I know that there's a path, maybe I don't know what it is. And I feel the same, Aubrey. I wouldn't be doing this on a lark. I mean, I'm making a lot of sacrifices to do it
AUBREY: And I don't know what your story is with your political activism. But I'll be dead honest, I've never voted once in my life. Not a single time. Not a local vote. Not a presidential vote. I've never voted. Now I've aligned with some, I kind of reposted some Jo Jorgensen stuff from the Libertarian candidate. And there have been a couple of things, I'll be like, that sounds pretty cool. I was actually pretty stoked when Obama won. I was like, seems like the guy is a baller. He's got a good crossover. I don't know, I just liked him. But I didn't vote, I wasn't moved enough to do that. And so, a lot of people are like, "What the fuck, man? You've never talked about politics. You've never cared or been involved in it." And people asked me that question all the time. And it's like, yeah, you're right. I have never. And this is something different. And this has moved me into action that's actually a completely different path than my whole life has taken to this point. I'm going to have to figure out what you got to do to register to vote. I'm not even registered. Then, I guess I’ll register as a Democrat, because I want to vote in the primary. I guess that's how it has to work. I'm going to just have to--
CHARLES: I think so, depending on the state.
AUBREY: And, like if someone said Aubrey, in 2023, you're going to register as a Democrat, I'd be like, "Get the fuck out of here. You're fucking insane." But yeah, that's what I'm going to do. And it's not because of, and again, there's something about Bobby that also transcends and confuses the polarization of blue and red, of Republican and Democrat. And I think the media is starting to figure this out, who is he? What is this? It's exactly that idea, I think one of the main campaign slogans that I've seen is, heal the divide. We heal the divide by actually erasing, not erasing, but kind of blurring the lines that have created the divide in the fucking first place.
CHARLES: It's what we've been talking about here. It goes down to the way that we see the human being. And practically speaking in the campaign, what we're doing is looking at polarizing issues and asking, what are the assumptions that both sides share? What are the common values that are not being said? What are the questions nobody's asking? Because a lot of times, and I get always often a bit tweaked when somebody, sometimes I help respond to press inquiries and stuff like that. And like, what's your position on this, that or the other thing? But by even answering that question, you're accepting the terms that the question is asked in. And to resolve most of these decades long tug of wars, where both sides exert tremendous effort and the marker moves a tiny bit left, right, left, right, and nothing ever changes, we have to ask completely different questions.
AUBREY: And use completely different language. You talk about abortion, and it's pro-life or pro-choice. Well, life and choice are both values that all of us hold sacred. So by merely naming it, then all of a sudden, it's very confusing, because both sides have a claim on their value.
CHARLES: Yeah. And there's deeply shared, almost universal moral agreements. Almost nobody relishes the thought of forcing women to undergo pregnancies they don't want. Almost nobody relishes the thought of abortions, and dead fetuses and stuff like that. Most people actually agree. But we are corralled into these warring opinion camps, that meet an unmet need for tribe, for belonging, for acceptance by a group. So, people wear their opinions on the prefabricated issues as badges of belonging to a certain opinion tribe. And it comes from, I mean, the root is not a simple thing to do away with, because it comes from the dissolving of community in our culture, it comes from the breakdown of our guiding myths that tell us who we are, and how to be human. I mean, the roots of this breakdown are deep, and the polarization is a symptom of that breakdown. So it doesn't change overnight. And I think that, if Bobby wins the election, I'm saying if not when, because it is a choice. And not only does he win, but what kind of Bobby, which version of Bobby's wins? What does the presidency look like? But I'm saying, if he wins, it's not like things will be radically different in five years. In fact, on a superficial level, things may be worse. But what will be different is that we will have a sense that we have turned the corner, and that we've begun the return journey. We're back on the timeline that was truncated in 1963. And we're much farther back than we were in the ensuing 60 years of war, and lies. We have a lot of ground to make up even to get back to where we were in 1963. But we will feel very different, because we'll be like, it happened. We hit bottom, and we turned it around.
AUBREY: And regardless of the infrastructure, which may be worse, and the social structure which may be worse, there'll be a personal structuring of our consciousness, which will be extraordinarily better. Because there'll be a sense that all right, now we're on the move. And there'll be a willingness to accept the challenges that we're facing with a different mentality.
CHARLES: People will have the experience of having opportunities to serve that are meaningful. That's what a lot of people are missing. They have all these ideals, but no easy way to express them that is economically supported, and socially supported and even available. That is the most profound change that will happen.
AUBREY: And the profundity of that change as it goes downstream through the healing that's available. I just did a podcast that went through the mythology of "Guardians of the Galaxy" and one of the points that we talked about was how each of the Guardians are radically traumatized beings. Parents dying, family getting killed, being tortured and having your friends killed if we're talking about Rocket, and then sisters being pitted against each other. Radically traumatized beings. But they all align themselves to a higher purpose. And then they're able to act and through their actions, they're still working through their trauma, they're still falling and making mistakes, and getting overrun by anger, where Drax goes and attacks when he shouldn't attack. And Rocket steals when he shouldn't steal. And all of these things are happening, but because they're fixed on this like higher purpose, they're able to actually work their trauma through rather than just sitting in therapy in this kind of impotency where they're just working. Not to shit on therapy at all. It's all important. But like the value of purpose, Sebastian Junger's thesis in tribe, it's like, when there's a real purpose, when the bombs were falling on London in the Blitzkrieg, the mental hospitals emptied, because people weren't crazy anymore. They were like, I've got to go out there and help my brothers and sisters, I've got to pick up some bricks, I've got to deliver bread. Like, I'm fucking out of here. I'm good. It's not like they just sent them all out because they couldn't care for them anymore. They were like, no, actually, I'm good. Let me out there. Let me out there to help. And I think we really radically underestimate the power of purpose. And then that will sweep through, as the real problems are exposed and as vehicles for us to like, alright, now we can take a stand and it will matter. Our lives will matter again. And the other way, is the opposite where our lives matter less than less. Where we have no purpose in our job, we have no purpose, we have no agency in the world. Everything's controlled by some NWO, some other organization, it doesn't matter, politics are a sham. That is just a slippery water slide into depression and apathy, and further psychosis.
CHARLES: And a lot of that is socially constructed, it's not, like you were saying, you can't just go into therapy and change all that. Going into therapy isn't going to change the economic incentives, it's not going to change the whole society that channels people into meaningless work, or no work at all. This is really important. This is the shadow side of the self-help movement. You're not fully responsible for the conditions of your life. That can be a very empowering teaching. You are responsible for the conditions of your life, it can lift somebody out of victimhood. But it can also feed this kind of self-blame, where something that's not actually your fault, you take it on as your fault. And this is what politics is about. It recognizes that individual consciousness, and the system and the stories that surround us are mutually resonant. Each creates the other. So, when the system seems frozen in place, maybe the best you can do is to change yourself, do your own work, carve out a little niche. But that is not the situation anymore. Now we have a chance to, it's a crossroads. It's not an inevitability unless we make it an inevitability that the world is going to change. Collapse isn't going to save us. Climate change isn't going to save us. Disclosure isn't going to come from the outside and save us. Financial collapse isn't going to save us. Nothing is going to save us from the outside. All we are granted from the outside is a crossroads. A choice point. And the choice point comes in the form of that feeling, which could be a vision, but it's the feeling we've been talking about. That we call hope. And when there is hope, we know what to do.
AUBREY: Yeah, it's a vision of the future. So, what would you say for people now who are listening, they align with everything we've mentioned about Bobby, maybe they're going to do some more research, maybe they already feel in a similar way, and you're a lot closer to the campaign than I am. Again, I'm politically naïve. I don't understand what is even possible, I'm starting to learn what the rules are, and how to actually support, and how you can't support. It's a whole game in and of itself. But what do you see, and we've talked about a lot of the internal processes in the field and changing the field, but as far as actions that people can take, what does his campaign need? Or what does Bobby need at this point?
CHARLES: Yeah, I mean, there's the usual things of, sign up for the newsletter, volunteer, make a donation. I don't think you need me to tell you that.
AUBREY: And those things matter, right? I mean, like you're in there, I think sometimes people think oh, that doesn't matter, and will get kind of jaded.
CHARLES: In addition to the practicalities of running a campaign, making a donation is also a ritual. It's a ritual that confirms to your unconscious mind that you actually do care about this, and that you actually want it. It's a kind of a prayer almost, you're making a sacrifice. You're making a symbol, money is a symbol invested with meaning and value. So it exerts a powerful, it's a powerful act, actually. So I think that beyond the practical logistical level, it does bring you into the field of that possibility. It affirms to yourself, the reality of hope, the reality that hope sees. So, I think of that as powerful. And I would say beyond that, I guess it's the same thing. It's to repudiate the lie that cynicism tells us that it is impossible. And to trust that part that knows that a more beautiful world is possible. And when you trust that, you know what to do, you know what to say. And you hold the highest expectation for the candidate. Because, again, if he wins it is because it is a manifestation of a shift in consciousness. And I'm talking about “he”, as in the highest expression of what he is. It's not just about winning the election. It's “who does he become as he wins the election?” And that depends on the field that we hold. So I would say, my advice is to trust your hope. Don't gaslight yourself. Trust your hope, and you will know what to do.
AUBREY: Yeah, make contact. Make contact with that part of yourself that really, and you'll feel a little fire that'll well up.
CHARLES: And it'll bring up even sharper relief, the cynicism and the pain. Because the vision and the felt premonition of that more beautiful future, also, it brings into relief what has been lost, and how far away we are from it, right? And how degenerate this world has become. My wife, Stella, was just at her 30th college reunion. And the college president spoke to their group, and said I think it was 46% of the student body is clinically depressed. And then she went to Knoebels, this amusement park in Pennsylvania. We were visiting my brother. She took our 10-year old to the amusement park. And she was like, almost every single person there was either obese, or injured or sick. Like there was hardly a healthy, thriving person there. And the food was all, just like this--
AUBREY: Corn Dogs and fried cakes.
CHARLES: Yeah, and yet the people there, I mean, there's still so much, they all brought their kids here because they love them. So you can see the beauty of the human being, the nobility, the heroism of life continuing to try to move back to reunion, back to love, and just the depth of our condition here. It's like we're in the sixth or seventh circle of hell. I mean, you look at any of our systems. I was speaking at a gathering of funders for the FLCCC, frontline COVID, something or other, doctors. I can't remember all the C's are, but hearing some of the stories of these doctors who had been successfully treating patients with ivermectin, zinc, vitamin D, vitamin C, etc, and then being ordered by their hospitals to stop doing that and watching patients start to die in front of their eyes, or even like losing their jobs for saving people. I mean, you don't need me to go through. This is part of the data set of sanity to recognize. And so, that comes up as part of the hope. And that's maybe one reason why people, another reason why they take refuge in cynicism. Because it brings up so much pain at the human condition. And we've got to bring it all in, all of the magnificence, and all of the horror. That's what I call sanity.
AUBREY: And a deep sense of self forgiveness. I think that's another key piece too. Because, maybe, you were championing mandates, lockdowns, the whole thing. Maybe you were championing some other political campaign that didn't pan out, or some other idea, and you were really, there's a lot of momentum and reputation and consistency of behavior that you've really stood for. And it takes not only courage, but underlying that courage is the ability to have that self-forgiveness and be like, no, I forgive myself. I was acting as best I knew how at the time that I did, and now I learned something different. The possibility of transformation is real. And with that, is the ubiquity of self-forgiveness. There's an ability to be like, alright, I forgive myself for, and even if it's something simple, like I forgive myself for turning a blind eye to what's happening, because we all do in a certain way. We all look away. It's too painful to look at all the dark places of the ocean destruction. You look at one thing for too long, and it's just, holy shit. And something will catch your attention, like the killing of fin whales in Iceland and you're like, "What the fuck?" This pisses you off, but it's happening all over the place. That lagoon where they kind of corral the dolphins and slaughter them. You look at that, and you can't even fucking look. And then there's the genocides of human beings, and then there's what's happening in Iran with women. It's like, God, I can't even look, like let me turn on something on Netflix and not look. And you have to forgive yourself for all of that, and then have the courage to not look away. It's one of my favorite scenes from Guy Ritchie's "King Arthur", Arthur has just got in contact with Excalibur. And when he actually holds the sword, which is a symbol of his full power, his potential to be the king, to be in his full power, he can't hold it. And the mage who's playing the role of that mage mentor is on the bridge looking at him, and he keeps releasing the sword. And he says, "Don't worry, Arthur, we all look away. We all look away." And, it's this feeling of we've all looked away. We've all looked away from something personal, something larger, and it's okay. We can forgive ourselves, and then still find that courage to step into hope, to dare to hope, to have that and move forward. I think that's also key. Even if you've vaccinated your whole family or whatever, now you're like, what the fuck? I can't believe I did this. It's okay.
CHARLES: And we can help this process of self-forgiveness by forgiving others.
AUBREY: Exactly. Model it.
CHARLES: And people, sometimes, they're a little afraid of me because I was such a forthright opponent of mandates, and all that stuff. And maybe they were on the other side, maybe they're wavering, or maybe they've kind of secretly changed their minds, but they're like, Oh, gosh, Charles must really hate me now, or think less of me." And what comes to mind, forgiveness is not an act of indulgence. Don't be patronizing. Forgiveness, it's another part of sanity. It comes from accurately seeing the human being. Jesus on the cross was reported to have said, "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do." In their reality, they thought they were doing a good thing by nailing this criminal, this disturber of the peace or whatever, up to the cross. Maybe some part of them knew better. But they did not really know what they were doing. So, we have to understand that, whatever people have done to themselves, to other people, to their children, whatever, to ecosystems, to anything, if I were in their shoes, with the information that they had, and the life experiences that they had, I'd probably do the same thing. Do I think I'm made of better stuff than them? No. So forgiveness is the consequence of actually seeing that in a moment. It's a consequence of understanding. And if you don't have the understanding, then the forgiveness, you can try to forgive but if you don't have that moment of soul to soul contact, where, oh, I understand, then the forgiveness will be fake.
AUBREY: Yeah, I am that too. I see myself. It's the underlying principle from the Hawaiian Kahunas of their whole Ho'oponopono which is, of course, beautiful sayings, like, Thank you, I love you, please forgive me, I'm sorry, these sayings. But it's not that, it's also actually identifying whatever malady, whatever pathology in that other person and finding it in yourself, and applying that salve of self-love and forgiveness to that part of you and yourself. And the stories are that when you do that in the presence of others, when you say, I see that in me, and let me forgive that part of myself, like it actually has a dramatic impact on the other. Because self and others are actually only separated through a mythology. And also, some dimensional objective reality, but also a mythology. It's connecting back to that source field. That opens the pathway to, and again, it goes back to those real fundamental things, which is really softening and collapsing the phrase that you popularized, the myth of separation, which is at the core of it. Seeing like, no, no, I am that too. I've eaten foie gras, I have. It's fucking terrible. That's a terrible thing to do, honestly. But this restaurant, Uchico, they make this foie gras sushi, and they fucking caramelize it, and sometimes, the homies get it. And I'm like, I didn't stop them, it's here on the table. I'll have a piece. And it's like, fuck, and I still think about that. It's like, this animal is tortured. I'm eating torture, you know what I mean? And so I still keep that in mind. And I try to always source, try to source everything from the most ethical standpoint that I can of animals that lived a life that was true to life, in a way. But also I've, in a way, "sinned" and not because some Bible or some God said that I sinned. But yeah, I'm a sinner too. I not only ate it, I enjoyed it. You know what I mean? And it's like, yeah, I get it. I've done bad shit. That's a part of it. And so, it's with that acknowledgement and that kind of saying, all right, we're all in the same field. We're all imperfect, we're all the holy and broken hallelujah. Our full divinity and full depravity, and it's all there and actually, you can start to soften the edges about it, and then just decide to chart an even more conscious and evolved path. But it requires first the acknowledgement of being a part of the whole milieu of “good and bad”. Starting from there and then moving forward. Charles, this is always a highlight when we get to podcast together, and we'll get to hang and go in the cold plunge tomorrow, and do the things. Probably have a pull-up contest as is our tradition.
CHARLES: I'm not sure if I've improved since last time.
AUBREY: I'm not sure if I've improved since last time, so we both got--
CHARLES: I've got a lot less weight to pull up. I've been working on that part. Yeah, all this campaign stuff, I've been like sometimes not taking good care of myself.
AUBREY: Yeah, indeed. We're on the campaign, and the campaign is a commitment to a cause. Each in our own way.
CHARLES: I do have some years on you, though. Should give me an advantage.
AUBREY: You should get a spot. You should get a couple as a handicap for golf for sure. But I'm not going to give it to you, I'm going to take all the victory, by the numbers. Alright, so we mentioned some things. And again, if you are going to donate, I think your advice, make it sacred. Pick a sacred number, pick something that means something to you. Maybe it's $333, or maybe, I don't know, whatever. But make it a ritual. A ritual of your commitment. And it matters in the campaign. I know so many people involved in the campaign, and I know that you guys are spending money in the best way that you can spend it, and I really trust that. And yeah, the information and sharing the information, like all of that matters, but it can be a symbol, a symbol of your commitment.
CHARLES: Thank you for, I mean, it takes a little courage even to make that ask. It's always a little awkward, but I would just say, I wouldn't even actually make it an ask, I would say more, just let the knowing of what it is, which is a ritual confirmation of an authentic feeling of hope. If it is there. And when that lands, then you will know whether and what to give. And if you don't feel that, don't give. This is really about deepening our trust. A lot of the campaign has come from a rejection of a lot of what we've been told by the authorities, about what is true, whether it's COVID, or whether it's Ukraine, or civil liberties. Like all of these issues that are centerpieces of the campaign, how do you know that what all of our structures of authority are telling you isn't true? You have to be sourcing something from within. So that's really what I want to encourage is, if you don't resonate, then don't give. And if you do feel the awakening of the premonition of a possibility that we call hope that you can participate in, then that symbolic gesture will be powerful. Beyond the practicalities.
AUBREY: Amen. Yeah. I love that. The website is Kennedy24.com And then you have The Sanity Project, which you mentioned. Where do people go for that?
CHARLES: I guess my website would be the place. Yeah, there's a landing page on my website. I made a video about it. And it actually started a couple days ago. But it's six months. So you're not too late. Depending on when you post this.
AUBREY: Yeah, there'll be another one that starts up. What's your website URL?
CHARLES: Charleseisenstein.org.
AUBREY: All right, my friend. Onward we go. So much love to you, brother.
CHARLES: Yeah, likewise.
AUBREY: Yeah, and so much love to all you listeners. We'll see you next week. Peace.