Since the birth of civilization humans have considered ourselves separate and opposed to nature–including our own body. This is a fallacy. We are an inextricable part of nature, and this realization begs a change in everything from birth to death. We have collectively reached our ecological and psychological limits and are now experiencing the labor pains of a necessary rebirth into unification. Dr. Zach Bush MD applies his vast medical and metaphysical experience in extrapolating how the four phases of birth apply to the rebirth of a new humanity. He is joined by one of the great philosophers and writers of our time, Charles Eisenstein. This is a must listen, once in a lifetime episode!

AUBREY: Charles Eisenstein, Dr. Zach Bush. And when I say doctor about you, it's with a newfound reverence for that term of a complete honoring of the entirety of your ability to bring healing to a human being beyond just the MD. And I've been able to witness that firsthand, over the time that we've spent here. So honor you, that's a title of deep honor, not just acknowledgement.

DR ZACH: Thank you.

AUBREY: There's infinite things that we could discuss, us three. There's such a quantum multitude of possible ways to go. I think, in charting something of this complexity, I'd like to have a map. And while while Vylana was giving the opening sound bowl meditation, it came to me that the map itself could be Stan Grog's basic perinatal matrices, which go from and I'll actually let Charles explain it, because he wrote about it in his most recent essay, and it's something that I've been deeply steeped in. And I know, as you, someone who has been intimately involved in actual birth process, I think it's a great map, because it applies individually to the psyche of the self and it applies universally, as Charles has pointed out, to where we are as a culture in our own collective birthing into a new reality. So Charles, if you want to start with, with just a cursory explanation of the map of Dr. Grof's basic perinatal matrices one to four.

CHARLES: Yeah. So he divides the birth process, any birth process into four stages, the first being uterine bliss, or the stage of growth without apparent limit, where all your needs are provided for. There could be bad experiences in the womb, but it's generally like an all-providing, all-nourishing environment, which as growth continues, transitions gradually into stage two, which begins with confinement, and a feeling of the world pressing in on you, and then enters into the contractions before the cervix has opened. So there's a feeling of pressure, increasing, increasing, increasing pressure, but no way out. And it corresponds to existential philosophy, and no exit. And despair. Each of these stages have psychological components. As it reaches a peak of tolerability, with no alternative, it transitions to stage three, when the cervix opens, and the baby begins to move down the birth canal, which on one level, is even more intense experience, Titanic forces are bearing down on you. But psychologically, it's a lot different because you can literally see a light at the end of the tunnel. And you know that all of this is bringing you toward a new world. You can't imagine what the new world is, but you've received hints of it even in stage one. Stage four is the emergence into a new world, a separation from all that you've known, but in ideal circumstances a reconnection with the mother.

AUBREY: And the newfound freedom of the brand new world, a world of light and a world of individuation. And an interesting part of, as I've understood it, I was very fortunate my father knew Stan Grof and so I was brought up with this information. He talks about in stage three, BPM III, that there's a sense of you're fighting for something, you finally have something that you know you're fighting for and you see the light and you're fighting for it and even if you're not fighting as the baby because you're being pushed, you're so inexorably connected to the mother who is fighting, who is pushing, who is breathing, full Lamaze, we're getting through this and you, in your unity with the mother, participating in this fighting. And if it all goes smoothly, the psychological initial primordial wash of what you understand is plenum, BPM I, just the plenum of everything is taken care of; collapse, hell, everything is gone to shit, there's no hope, then there's hope. And then there's a way to fight and you fight together and you make it through. And if you've had interruptions in that, it can psychologically have an effect. So I'll just briefly tell my story to exemplify this. So my mother was a professional tennis player, a fighter, a great athlete, and she was in labor for 12 hours, pushing, and it was overnight. So her doctor, her main doctor, wasn't there. So she had another doctor. And the doctor was casually paying attention, just telling her to push, keep pushing, keep pushing, and my mom was pushing and breathing for 12 hours. Well, it turns out that her bones were too tight for my head to come out. So it was impossible.

DR ZACH: Are you sure your head wasn't too big?

AUBREY: Right, Zach. My head was too big. Sorry, mom. I've been telling this story the whole time. 

CHARLES: I was trying not to say anything. I'm glad that you spoke.

DR ZACH: It's a very externalized story here.

AUBREY: Dang it! My head was too big. I'm sorry, mom.

DR ZACH: This is somehow mom's fault. Her bones were too small. Hello?

CHARLES: Take some responsibility here. 

AUBREY: Goddammit. My head was too big. This changes everything. All right, so my head was too big and ultimately, we were stuck. And then there had to be an intervention, which was finally when the doctor woke up and they called them. He's like, "What are you doing? His head can't fit out." C-section, this is not going to work. I was pulled out into the light. So I've identified that I have this deep willingness to fight, willingness to fight, but where I can sometimes lose hope is that I can lose hope that I'll succeed without some massive intervention. I'm willing to fight, but I don't necessarily believe that the fighting will succeed. This has been something that I've noticed in myself, that's like, oh, yeah, I'll fight to the very last breath. I know that about myself. But do I think I'm gonna win? Do I think it's going to work? Maybe not. That maybe comes from under Stan Grof's idea, comes from that process. So that's an interesting way that it applies individually. But, of course, as you can see, it can apply collectively or to any birthing process.

DR ZACH: I'm excited to hear your thoughts, Charles. But I definitely have witnessed a lot of that in the United States in particular. The process towards successful vaginal birth has become more and more challenged with each passing decade over the last four or five. And the rate at which c-sections are happening globally now is stunning. In China, for example, 51% of all births are by c-section now, which just doesn't calculate that half of births can't be done vaginally. And certainly a lot of that is out of convenience. But a lot of it is also a malnutrition state of mom, or baby or whatever it is. And you end up with a lot of high-risk pregnancies in these situations. In the United States, that number is closer to 33% c-section, but it varies a lot by city. I think Miami is at 45%, some of the other big cities close behind. We have a situation where we've given up on maternal biology, I think, in a lot of ways. And that's, I think, indicative of the human spirit in some ways, which is we're starting to give up that hope that you're talking about of maybe it's not possible to fight hard enough, maybe we are just gonna have to wait till the pharmaceutical industry or medical technology offers us some other solution. The result is interesting because at each stage of this giving up of hope for the human capacity for life, we tend to take big steps away from nature. We eliminate natural law from almost our very concept of being alive. And we develop some sort of sense of codependence, if not complete dependence upon an external force or an external technological solution.

CHARLES: I said something very similar to that in the essay that Aubrey was talking about, that when a c-section is performed, especially unnecessarily. In some places, it's 90%, the c-section rate. The only babies that are born vaginally are by accident. What happens, psychologically, I think, is that the baby is deprived of this primal triumph, that insinuates into their psyche, I can do this. So it's the helplessness that then plays out politically, where we're always waiting for something to come and save us, maybe literally technology or a great leader. We don't have the knowledge of our power. It's part of the paradigm of control that keeps us dependent. And sometimes, c-sections are like in your case, like--

AUBREY: Got a big head. 

CHARLES: Yeah, got a big head.

DR ZACH: Yeah, and in that situation, I think, there's a different attitude to it, or there's a different spiritual result of a mother who does push, and continues to push against an impossible situation. The spirit of that is much different than a situation where you scheduled the c-section a month and a half beforehand and pop in and get your general anesthesia. C-sections are such an interesting thing. I don't think most people even know what it looks like. It's the most bizarre thing that we do. In medicine, I never saw a strange thing. It was my very first rotation because I had done work in the Philippines, thought I was going to engineering, took a year off, went to the Philippines, worked with a group of midwives over there, and watched vaginal birth after vaginal birth after vaginal birth. These women were, by and large, completely malnourished. We were working the squads of the kids in a city outside of Manila, literally tens of thousands of tin shacks pressed together with mud and open sewage and the worst possible conditions. Really rarely saw really bad outcomes for the babies from vaginal deliveries. I thought I was really good at birthing babies, so I went to medical school. When it came time finally to have my clinical rotations, put OB/GYN first. I was really confident I was going to ace this thing. And wearing a pager, that dates me right there, yes, but wearing a pager for the first time as a doctor or med student, whatever and goes off on the first day of my rotation. I went rushing down the emergency room with the residents and this woman, African-American woman, came in, her heart stopped. Already, they shocked her back and she's hemorrhaging severely vaginally. She had overdosed on cocaine earlier in the day. We had like minutes to get this child out before she died, was the concern from cocaine overdose. Running through the OR doors with this gurney, and they do it hyperfast, scrub. It was about, from crashing through the doors to the baby, meaning you've cut all the way across the woman's abdomen, exposed the outside of the abdominal sheath, cut again all the way through the abdominal muscle sheath and then open up, find the uterus down there, cut a huge swath across this muscular body of that uterus and then grab the baby, the whole time was about 96 seconds. It was the fastest, most barbaric looking thing I'd ever imagined, seeing the baby get pulled out, mom codes, minute half later and dies. The baby ends up dying three days later in massive drug withdrawal syndrome. And from that moment forward, Denver General, where I was doing this rotation, I rarely saw a vaginal delivery work. There's something that sticks with me in that is that we have so pushed away from all of the things that would make life work, that woman's lack of support socially, familiarly, culturally. The c-section rates are just symptomatic of 200 years of marching away from natural law and marching away from human dignity, marching away from our sense of sovereignty. And I believe somehow we actually did that with our founding documents in this country. We accidentally wrote ourselves out of nature, the definition of nature, saying that we are opposed to nature in the Oxford Dictionary. But I think darker is that in the Declaration of Independence, the preamble says that there's two forces that will guide the leadership of this country; one is natural law, and one is God. It describes them as being opposed to one another, separate from one another. We have a country that has come to believe that nature and God are separate. Humans and nature are separate. And for that, we have completely lost our own sovereignty, we don't trust a sovereign concept of God or spirituality, whatever it is. I think that we have around us, as a society, a long standing disease of not knowing who we are, or where we lie within nature.

CHARLES: I would take it even back farther than the Declaration of Independence. I think a lot of the reason why the C-section rate is so high, partly it's because of the culturally-instilled rejection of the body that's been perpetrated upon women, but upon all of us, where the body is seen as, if not an enemy, at least this foreign entity. Even the phrase, "My body," establishes a relationship of possession as if my body weren't me. This isn't my body. My? Who's my? It's me, me, and to really accept that is part of the re-acceptance of nature, as part of humanity. It's not our environment, it's actually us. It's a continuum of relationships. This mind-body, this body-person divide, this human nature divide, it's articulated in the Declaration of Independence, but you can trace this divide widening for hundreds, thousands of years. If the trend is that ancient and that big, it points to the profundity of the revolution, the turning that we are engaging in now. We're reversing or transcending a history, a process, or we can say the process is one way to see it, and this is more of a birth metaphor, a process that, in the beginning, was we're growing in this idea that we're separate from nature, the human realm, it grew and grew and grew, without apparent limit. And then, over the last few 100 years, it's increasingly pushed up against, not only ecological limits, but also psychological limits. We're becoming intolerably miserable in this cage of separation. It's now reaching a combination or a transition phase, where we're moving out of it. The struggle is intensifying but we don't have the feeling anymore where we're starting not to have the feeling that we're stuck here. There is another world, another paradigm, another reality, another relationship to nature, that we're moving toward, and it's time to push.

AUBREY: That was the title of your essay. So I was attempting to write a book called "Master Your Mind, Master Your Life", it seemed like a natural follow up to my "Own The Day, Own Your Life" publisher loved it.  got to 60,000 words twice, and ultimately, was like, "What the fuck am I doing?" Because I recognised that I was still trapped in the Cartesian duality and the duality that says, "I think, therefore I am," and putting the priority of who you are on the ego, which thinks, the mind itself. If the mind is separate in what defines you as existence, but the mind is inexorable from the body, the body and the mind are actually just the same thing on a different density and so is the Spirit also inexorable from both of those. We created this split, as we're talking about, and this has been an issue where it's not only the myth of separation between people, but it's the myth of separation between the self, that somehow our soul gets unlocked when this body dies. No, your soul is your body in form. This is what it is and when you actually go in, deep, deep, deep in and you see it, you're like, oh, it's all the same thing. And that all of that, collectively, is part of the field, the collective field of thought. Right now we're all in each other's heart fields. We're all in each other's thought fields. We're in each other's consciousness. It's all inexorable. We're all inexorable from the world that's around us, from the tea that's in our cup. And this is the thing that I think we've forgotten. And as we pursue this separation individually, we're also doing it separately where everything becomes more and more compartmentalized and we've lost our way, to a certain extent. But that, ultimately was why, that book, it won't be written as that because I couldn't. I couldn't do it, I couldn't effectively separate them enough to actually write anything about mastery. It was all mind or it's not mind. It's one thing, it's just different expressions of which. I think that's a big issue with why we've started to lose the natural laws, because animals don't see themselves in that way. I think our First Nations and our ancestors didn't always see themselves that way. But then we, as intellectuals, have adopted that steadily more and more.

DR ZACH: Absolutely. I'm intrigued by this underlying sense that you're explaining, that new twinge feeling like there's something that's never been seen before coming. And it's been the first time in my life where I had to start to surrender my mind and start to just trust this weird feeling. There's no way to check this thing. There's no way to go and get any input. You can't go research the crap out of a future that's never existed. I love the feeling of that. So what are you feeling? What is that sensory experience for you?

CHARLES: I quoted Carl Sagan for the essay, "sailors on a calm sea, we sense the stirring of a breeze." It's a sea change. It's like nothing's changed, but everything's changed. And this all oppressive atmosphere of despair, of the futility of the human condition that says, we've tried this before, we've had hope before, nothing's ever really changed. Yeah, all that's true. We've tried it before. And nothing really has changed. The human condition, different form, same thing, yet, something has changed. And I'm not saying that everybody is feeling the same thing at the same time. This is happening nonlinearly but a lot of people know exactly what I'm talking about. And even having this inner and outer sea change, apparent doesn't mean that sometimes I don't go into doubt and despair still and revisit stage two. The perineal matrix, as it plays out in psychology, is not so linear. It's the feeling of it's not something I accomplished. What's it like for the fetus when the cervix opens? It's awe-inspiring, it's a miracle. It's not all up to us. This is the delusion of the fetus. And maybe it's a necessary delusion, like the fetus comes out and he or she or she's like, "I did it." Actually, the mother did it. The experience is that I did it. The feeling is a premonition of the possibility that we haven't done it yet. The birth canal push is just starting. It's a lifting of futility. I think you know what I'm talking about. Maybe it's not so present for you in your stage of life, but--

DR ZACH: I feel it very much. 

AUBREY: It makes me think that part of the problem, the hopelessness that we feel is our disconnection from the mother because we can't do it without the capital M, Mother. We can't do this without Earth, just like we can't birth without our mom. Our arms are pinned behind us, well, hopefully you know, but our arms are pinned behind. It's not like we have fins on and we're kicking our way out and we're gonna swim our way up-current and birth ourselves. It requires the mother's and the mother's help. And only people who are tapped into the mother, in much a deeper way I think can have actual hope against what would be hopeless as just a fetus trying to make this work. But if we know no, no, no, the mother, the mother is pushing, the mother is pushing, and she's got this. And we're just going to do our part. And I think that's an important attribute. That's something that I think defines all of us is a deep gnosis of the mother and a faith in the mother that's unquantifiable because it's not like a literal person, like in an actual hospital or in an actual maternal birth process. But when you understand the mother from a metaphysical level, and also an earth level, that's when you can start to have faith, like, all right, we're birthing and the mother's pushing. And that changes everything, I think.

DR ZACH: Yeah, when you were just speaking there, it dawned on me that what we're feeling might be this new energetic field that's emerging around humanity, that might be similar to what we see with these energy field cameras that were developed in Russia, but we use them in clinic for mapping the stress environment within the human body. And so you use 10-finger images, to a plasma discharge with a voltage discharge across the fingertip. You record that, then you see this very coordinated halo around the human once you put all that data together across the 10 fingers from a couple different ways. And they've tracked women who are pregnant, and there's always just one field, that's her field. And in the moment that cervix opens, if you reimage her fingers at that point, there's a second new energy field, you can see that baby's energy field before it starts dropping into the birth canal. I wonder if we haven't quite cervix-opened, we haven't maybe pushed into that canal but the energy field is palpable now. That new humanity is there. You can feel the potential of life there.

AUBREY: This is going to require a large reevaluation of things that we've taken for granted. I think that's something that all of us share in common is that the revolution that we speak of is not, and we talked about this recently on the podcast, it's not a small thing. It's not this side winning over this side. It's a complete upheaval of the way that we look at everything. And we talked about this, the way you categorize viruses, the way you think about cancers, the way you think about a human being, the way you think about each other, it's such a radical thing that's going to be necessary for this birth. It's no small thing and I think the tension itself, the lobster, the proverbial lobster, which is I think literal, have the tension of what causes it to burst out of its shell and get a new shell, this idea that the tension must build and this is okay, it's okay everybody, this tension that we're feeling, this chaos, fuck, sorry, but it's necessary. It's not like we made a wrong turn. This was always necessary. And it doesn't excuse it, but it's like, fuck, maybe it was necessary.

CHARLES: This is what birth contractions are on a human level. They're expelling us from the world that we've been in. Imagine how different the world after birth is for a baby compared to what life was like in the womb. In the womb, you don't breathe, you don't eat, you don't see. What's it like not to breathe, to eat or drink? You become human in a totally different way after you're born. The change that we collectively are going to experience is at that degree. Like you were saying, every category that we have to understand reality will change, including the categories of disease, the categories of money, every category, and every institution built on those categories. I'm not saying it'll change overnight, but we are already seeing the future, like we can see down the birth canal. And, by the way, we're not only the baby, we're also part of the mother. Don't hold this metaphor too tightly. But we can see--

AUBREY: As the baby is part of the mother too.

CHARLES: Yeah. We can see glimpses of what lies in the future, and they take the form in the present of pretty much everything we call holistic, and alternative. They're only in the very margins of society at this point. The pandemic hits and do we spend trillions of dollars on lifestyle changes and nutrition and how do we boost our immunity and resilience? No! Do we clean up the water supply? Do we clean up? No! We've doubled down. But on the margins, we can see the future and not just in medicine, but of course, in how to live, how to grow food. We could completely change. Zach, you do a lot of work with soil. Without even that much effort, we could be living in ecological paradise and have plenty of food. And how far away is that future? It's just a shift of consciousness away. In the biodynamic farmers, we're seeing little previews of what this utterly different. If I even said what the future looks like, I would just sound like a nut job. So I mentioned the more tepid biodynamic agriculture, eco villages, or something like that, but really, that just barely begins to communicate how big the transition is.

AUBREY: To true abundance. The abundance BPM I is complete. It's complete. Obviously, the mother can be malnourished, or she can take a drug and it can affect,  there can be chaos, it can happen. But the abundance is complete. You don't need to breathe, you don't need to eat, you don't need to worry about even going to the bathroom, everything is just happening. It's just a happening, that is a state of being, it's radical abundance that doesn't require your own resources and money. This is a state that we're fighting for in the externalization of it, the accumulation of things and money. But ultimately, the full cycle is going to be in the radical abundance of the mother. That's it. And that, in and of itself, is so radical in this world of not only my body, but my house, my money, my stuff. And I get it, we're in this stage where that all exists and I'm a part of that. I'm reifying that, by my very existence in this. And I don't know if not doing that would change anything. But nonetheless, we're in this stage, but ultimately the abundance that we all crave, is a return to abundance where the mother, the plenum, is taking care of us.

DR ZACH: There are two indigenous prophecies about this time that I just find so intriguing. The Achuar, the last indigenous people to be contacted. Actually they contacted us, but contacting the industrialized world in 1994, they had this prophecy that in this decade that we're in now, the wing of the feminine archetype will unfold for the bird of humanity. And for the first time, that single masculine wing, which has been sending us in circles since our beginning, will finally level out and the bird of humanity will fly straight for the first time in history. And so in this way, we don't have to worry that it's like a return to something we forgot. It's so new, our species has literally never had the potential to do this, because we were so detached from the mother. We've got mythology around the fall and all these things. Maybe something around that as a spiritual truth but I'm fascinated by the possibility that you're speaking to you really is then. No matter how hard we try to imagine it, what that is going to look like when we're finally flying straight and there's a balance between not the masculine and feminine human, but the masculine and feminine divine, the divinity within us suddenly stabilizes. The second one that I find so interesting is that in this decade, we might lose the genetics of fear and guilt. That would be the result of a feminine wing unfolding because the masculine archetype is goal-oriented all the time. The feminine archetype is process-oriented. In a species that's always been goal-oriented, short-term-sighted, trying to figure out why it's not working, why is it not working? Why is it not working? Try this, try that, we suddenly fly straight. And what would immediately happen is we'd shift from that goal to process-oriented which the result of that would be a loss of scarcity and a gain of abundance in philosophy. I think those things might all be tied together. What you're talking about is the masculine, feminine the mother, this epigenetics of fear and guilt and how it's affected us as a result of that unopposed masculine archetype. And then this possibility that we can only limit that future by trying to push forward our historic experience in the future.

AUBREY: Let's take the role, just have the audacity to take the role of being a birth doula to the birth of individuals into this next process and the birth of culture into this next but really speaking to people. I haven't been through the process but I understand that the role of the birth doula is just to support the natural process in its highest form. Let me support the natural process of this, support the mother, if they need a kind word, if they need someone to hold their hand, if they need some advice to push. They're just there to serve the divine in action. So if we were going to just go around and act as the birth doula to round the rough edges in the corners and the sharp spots of this to help make this smoother. And I know this is a deep part of the work that we're doing. But let's just go towards that, where we find from almost like a triage mindset of where's the sharpest broken glass in this process, that as doulas, we can help clean up, help around the edges, help smooth that glass like it is when you find it washed up on the beach, so it's a little softer, and it's not going to cut. Don't take away the glass. And we'll go to both of you, if you're going to be in that, what would be your advice to humans at this time, to smooth this radical process?

CHARLES: I've had the honor of witnessing four births of my four children, the best four moments of my life. And a little bit envious of you, Zach, having witnessed many. I'm very grateful for those experiences. I do think I learned a little bit about what you're saying. I think that the most useful thing I did, besides run around and do whatever tasks were necessary, was to hold the knowledge that it's okay to trust the process, to hold the knowledge that yes, you can do this. Even through the moment where the mom says, "I can't do this," recognizing that that's part of the process too, a sacred part of the process. And that she can do it. And to hold that. It's the same holding that a coach has. My coach in high school did this beautifully. He knew what I was capable of better than I did and held the space for me to do that. And we can source from our knowledge that this planet can do it and that each individual person can make this transition, and can be born into who they will be in relation to the new earth. It's not just society that changes. It is who we are in relation to that society, changing in just as profound a way. This cynicism, that's some of the sharp glass. Cynicism. So and so will never change. Is that true? Do you know that's true? What part of you hurts that wants that to be true? Can you also see the part of you that knows that they can make it and dare to step into that and hold that for them? You're not ashamed, not a push, but a friendship. That, I think, is how we can be good doulas for this process.

DR ZACH: I like that so much. And I think that the word that comes to mind for me is certainly related. But the concept of judgment, I think, is polluting the water so strongly right now for rational thought, rational behavior. We have become, in our deep sense of insecurity, we fall back to ego, the master of judgment. And it's always looking to damn something external, mom's pelvis is too small so I can't get out, whatever it is.

AUBREY: Come on, come on!

DR ZACH: By the way, head size is lifelong.

AUBREY: It's still here. It's just metaphorical now. Fuck! 

DR ZACH: I think that there's a real deep opportunity. The reason for the tenor of the polarization happening right now on the planet is because we're about to lose fear and guilt. We're about to let go of ego as such a constituent of the human experience. And like the birth pains, you have to squeeze the crap out of those last few anchors that you have keeping you inside the womb. I really think that the loss of judgment, and the understanding that there is not good and evil, there is not right and wrong, there's human experience. Once we finally let go of that strong effort towards externalizing our experience, and start to internalize the reality that this is my life, I wrote this, I am a sovereign being, an ancient soul that has composed a life that would guide me to my highest potential to contribute something to humanity, that is about to enter a birth canal moment. And we showed up right away. There's no way that this is accidental that 7.8 billion souls showed up right now. If it really was the worst of times, we wouldn't have joined. This is the best of times, this is the best thing that has ever been for humanity, this moment is the best.

CHARLES: Everybody wants to be here for this moment. That's we will have a peak population over the next 30 years. Everyone wants to be here. 

DR ZACH: Yeah, it's beautiful.

AUBREY: You've talked about the potential significance of this moment not only on our own planetary level, but on a potentially cosmic level. This is Earth as an organism participating in, if you have the animistic view, like many of us do. Earth as a single organism and then part of an ecosystem of different solar systems and planets like this is a very important thing, perhaps even beyond what our purview is. That's, I think, what I would offer, which is a largely, dovetailing off what you said, is it's a place of zooming out to a perspective that can open yourself to a greater level of faith, and support and possibility that actually supports what you were saying, which is the knowing that it's going to work. But the mind does require some way in which it can somehow use a few things that make a little bit of sense. And we can get those things.   They're not necessary, but they're crutches. They're like crutches to help us get to the place of knowing, that place of belief if we need them. I think when we start to really feel that there is help. One of the things that will happen is, I have a couple of decks of oracle cards, then they're like tarot cards, but different, written by different authors. I'll pick some sometimes, and certainly, it could be like, you know, the Barnum fallacy or whatever, where everything sounds true in the moment, because they're written in that way. But there's some times and most times, honestly, where I pick that random card out of 60 cards, and I read it, and I go, "Fuck!" And I just start to cry because I'm like, "This is not possible that I pulled this one. It's not fucking possible." And I feel like this helps, I'm not alone. There's support. There's support that we can't name and we can't see. And it happens in synchronicities. And it happens in these moments. But as soon as we open ourselves to this possibility, then that faith, then that faith starts to become contagious. That starts to affect the field itself and everybody starts to believe. If any of us can find that, find that belief, the gnosis that, alright, we're not alone in this and you can't materialistically reduce it to something that you can measure and quantify because it's unquantifiable. Like how do I know that this card is perfect for me right now, at this moment? I just know it. I know that to be true. I think one thing that can really round that is to have a greater faith in the unseen world. Some ways, there's many ways to find that but when we find that, I think that also can really help us believe this, believe this world into existence.

CHARLES: Yeah, that's part of what we're being born into is understanding that we're not the sole intelligence and bringer of meaning to the world. But it's not that we are guaranteed to be born into this new world. It is a possibility, and the knowing that we hold is that it is possible, not that we're going to be delivered there. The whole concept of delivery even, the obstetrician that influenced me the most was some Bradley, natural childbirth of Bradley I read before my first child was born, it validated all of the things that I kind of knew, but didn't know how to say about and didn't know what to think. It was amazing. He never said he delivered babies. He said he caught babies. So it's not this idea of the heroic male doctor, originally. Sorry, nothing personal here but delivering--

DR ZACH: I have all of those problems.

CHARLES: Sucking the baby out with suction or that whole concept. Nothing's going to deliver us, unless maybe we do need a c-section at some point. But if that happens, then a cosmic process that you were mentioning will not have been fulfilled. And will need to be tried again. So there's a lot, and I hope I'm not going to get too woo woo here, but there's one reason why so many extraterrestrial species are so interested in what's happening on earth now, is because it is cosmically significant. I said that story that no planet has ever gone this deep into separation and made it through. If we are able to make it, then a new chapter unfolds in the galaxy, or whatever. It's evolutionary, what's happening here is evolutionary. What makes it exciting and what draws our full participation in it, is the lack of a guarantee of success.

AUBREY: We wouldn't have a game any other way. Otherwise, it's a movie.

DR ZACH: I think in some ways, we just have to keep open hands. We can feel all the potential, the potential can't be taken away. It's always there. But we just have to keep a loose hand on what format that takes. It's not like we can fail to expand to the next level. The question at this point really remains is are we going to do that in the body, because death is not an endpoint. And if we actually do, seemingly fail to wake up here and make this transition through the birth canal, and we go extinct in the next 60 to 120 years, every hospice passage I've ever seen, is the most expensive thing I've ever seen. It is startling how a few seconds of lucid thought right before death can break epigenetic and familial patterns of behavior and you can see reconciliation happen from this moment of clarity as that soul is stepping across the other side of the veil, seeing the entire truth, bringing that back for a moment, wakes up from the coma, says the truth, dies minutes later. The expansion is so complete on that other side. And I think that it is relevant to the galaxy, to the planet, that we do this in the body. But I also don't hold out a sense of failure for any of it. We will have walked the path that will allow for expansion to happen. And if it takes another 4 billion years, it's almost irrelevant in our galactic timeline that knows no time. It's so easy to place human metrics of success or failure on this birthing process now. And if we end up with a head too big, stuck on ego, and we can't get out that birth canal, that might be exactly the journey that these 9 billion souls, by that time, need to express themselves in that sudden escape from the old paradigm.

AUBREY: That's again, the ultimate zoom out, zooming out of time and zooming out of this win-loss kind of perspective, which can give you a deep peace and then what you end up fighting for is you end up fighting for a love of life, a love of this life, the life that we know, a life of smell and taste and touch, the life where I can kiss my wife and have a cup of tea with my friends here and my brothers, and go out and jump on an obscenely too bouncy trampoline and get scared and do these things that are amazing. It's amazing what we have and so yes, it's going to be okay, no matter what. But fuck it special right now, and the earth is so beautiful. What if after all of the nuclear plants go and there's all this nuclear waste and stuff, what if roses never come back the next time? What if that's just like this was their go just like the dinosaurs had their run but like roses are never back again? There's a loss and there may be no roses on any other planet, probably not, because they're a part of this Earth at this time. Just like Triceratops. Probably this was the only place and the only time that a Triceratops existed and by no fault of their own, they were gone they had their moment. It's like preserving this beautiful moment, this beautiful moment, but not holding it so tightly that it's a failure if they go. To me that just means smell the roses, play with the cats, kiss the lovers, live. No matter what, don't forget to live so that the universe will have this record and this memory that people here on earth, they lived, they lived. If nothing else, if nothing else, just live, live. Live! Live! Yeah?

CHARLES: And that doesn't come from fear of not making it, like Zach was saying. That's not what drives it. It's the urge to be fully alive.

DR ZACH: It's intrinsic. It's intrinsic. The very first baby birth was by accident, alone, was by accident. It was in the back of a van rushing through Manila in the middle of night, a woman had dropped off at my aunt's front door at three o'clock in the morning and was ranting. They rang the doorbell and ran. I answered the door and this woman was hemorrhaging. She was not able to speak, she's nonverbal. She was neurologically handicapped at birth, and probably never spoken in her life, severely affected. She's probably in her 20s, had been raped, got pregnant, she had no idea what was going on, no idea what pregnancy would be. We had no idea what her situation was, but put her in the van and my aunt's in the front, driving to the hospital. I'm sitting next to this woman. I'm applying towels to the whole vaginal area, just trying to keep the bleeding contained. Suddenly, watching her stomach into full contractions. I pulled the towel away, just trying to figure out, I'm yelling to my aunt, "I think she might be in labor! I think something's going on." She's like, "Can you see the cervix blah, blah, blah?" Pull the towel away and there's an infant emerging from this woman that's no larger than my hand from head to toe. Blue as blue can be and perfect. Three o'clock in the morning rushing through. So just slanting light and everything else, and holding this thing in my hand. I had no gloves, anything and the feeling of this newborn skin on my hand was unfathomable. It was so soft, I didn't have the sensory detail to pick it up. And I was looking at this thing in awe because even though I couldn't quite see it, I could see that every single fingernail, though almost invisible, was perfect. That was the level of detail that had been so masterfully designed that it would emerge like this. And I told my aunt, "It's not breathing." She says it's not gonna breathe, it's super premature, like the woman didn't even look pregnant. By the size of the baby, she was probably 23 weeks at the most. We're cruising. I didn't want to set the baby down. It didn't feel right. So I'm holding this presumably dead baby. And suddenly, there's a weird little movement in my hand. I look down and this thing is taking a breath. And it takes maybe three more breaths, tiny little breaths, but I can feel it like through my whole hand. What it reminded me of is when you had that statement of life, just live. This freaking little thing with a mother who isn't a mother, who doesn't know who she is or where she is or how this all happened, I think it started taking breath and then lets out a scream, that was the tiniest freaking thing you've ever heard, like, maybe if you pictured a baby mouse screaming, but it was so human, completely human in that screen. It just tore me into shreds, I could not believe the humanity in this thing that had just emerged, so perfectly designed, it was fully there, it was fully alive with that one scream. It was too quiet for my aunt to hear. I was crying too hard to say anything. I just, at that point, covered it up, and was trying to keep it warmer in my hand. And we got to the hospital a few moments later and we handled the whole situation. In the short amount of time I was there, they had cut the umbilical cord and the result of that experience and baby ended up dying a couple of days later, mother ended up surviving, it has left me with this sense of it is intrinsic to the human soul to freaking live, just as it is intrinsic to the human DNA to make a perfect fingernail. You cannot separate the drive for life, from the word human. We are freaking driven for life. And we have frickin’ persistence. If you look at the maybe 10 million years of Homo Erectus, and then a couple hundred thousand years of Homo Sapiens Sapiens and all this stuff, there's been some shit going down. Whenever I start to get overwhelmed by anything in my life, but certainly these last couple years, my favorite way to decompress my anxiety is watching World War II documentaries. And there's something about the sound of dropping bombs from a B-52 and those grainy images of the viewfinder from the bomb, the B-52, of somebody citing a bomb, that reminds me of just how much we have survived. We have tried to bomb the shit out of each other so many times. We have tried to eliminate life so many times. It just can't be done. Humanity is the highest form of life drive that we've seen on the planet, I believe. And for that, we have an enormous amount of light. And I think those are probably inseparable. We have so much light within the biology of humans that we have that drive for life. And we do have all that, that drive for life, and therefore we have more light. So it's a beautiful endocrine loop, I think, because the water structure of our biology is so much different from reptiles. We literally can hold more white light in the water structure of the human cell. That's referred to as this third density. A lot of the animal life and other living forms on plants are in this first or second density. We are this highest life light form on the planet right now. It's interesting that at that last great extinction, they didn't struggle back; they, being the mother or the father, or whatever the Divine is, didn't struggle back to Triceratops. In fact, we moved from reptiles to avians to mammals to humans. We moved from ferns, to flowering plants and deciduous trees. There was such an abundance of life that came after the wipeout. And it happens because of the effect of the virome. The viruses are the genetic potential of life ahead. Viruses are a databank of new potential. When there's stress put on an organism, it starts making new variants of its own genetics to find loopholes, for adaptation for more biodiversity to occur. So it could be that we are pushing for a much higher life form on the planet as a species, and we are currently shedding massive amounts of viruses along with the pigs and cows that are suffering under our food system and the microbes that we're slaughtering, our soil systems with all the herbicides and pesticides. And for all of that existential stress on the planet, we are creating massive new genomic potential on this planet. And there's a possibility we get to stay in play in that new genetic array and see what comes forward. It may be a new version of human or it could be a leap as big as triceratops to Aubrey Marcus.

AUBREY: That's presuming that Aubrey Marcus is superior to a triceratops which I'm not quite convinced

DR ZACH: I was sharing that concern.

AUBREY: That's a beautiful way to look at it. There's a deep mistrust of the process that we see no stronger place than in medicine. It's the war on fucking everything. It's the war on cancer, the war on viruses, the war on bacteria, anti-bacterial, anti-fungal. There's war on cancer, war on everything and then on auto immunity, which is a war of self against self, and then a war of the self that's against the self, with the anti auto-immunity fucking, it's this war paradigm that is projected externally and internally. And I think from your purview in, in medicine, and then from your purview in culture, seeing how these things are so related is just one aspect of how this paradigm needs to shift. Let's start with medicine and what we're seeing now, which is most pressing now, which is on war virus and the denigration of, dare I say natural immunity, the forbidden term.

DR ZACH: We could maybe take a finer look at it, by looking at the word war and recognise it as an anti. And so we are anti-cancer, we are anti-vaginal-birth, because that might be high risk. We're ultimately, as doctors, subconsciously trained to be anti-death. That's our fundamental flaw is that we are really pushing hard and we consider that the ultimate failure when we lose a patient. And that's so ingrained in us so much that certainly Medicare and Medicaid will cut funding if too many people are dying under your operating room environment, whatever it is. The whole world has told us this is our metric, we're gonna not only hold you socially responsible for this, we're also gonna economically hold you responsible for keeping everybody alive. The position of anti has no power within it. It can only strengthen the thing you're anti. And so in being anti death, we have strengthened our fear and the death hold that we are now in with this society that is expressing itself the way it is. The opposite of that is being pro life. And that verbiage, interestingly, got co-opted, politically, in this abortion or anti-abortion stuff. But it was pretty brilliant from a political standpoint, to not be anti-abortion, but to be pro-life. That's a much stronger sentence, it has a whole different power to it. And so if we now take this stance of being pro-life, as medical practitioners, and we go in every morning to figure out how we foster more life within every patient.

AUBREY: And redefine life.

DR ZACH: Fundamentally different experience, because right now, I guarantee you, we wake up, we go to the hospital, and we figure out what we have to kill. So by buying into anti-death, we have to kill everything. We're killing cancer, we're killing all the bacteria, we're trying to kill viruses. There's this weird phenomena that happens when you're anti, if you actually go start doing the very thing that you actually thought you were opposed to. Farmers are doing exactly the same thing. Now, two generations in, they wake up every morning, with the daunting task of having to get on a full Tyvek hazmat suit, mix up three to five toxic chemicals because Roundup is not enough anymore, because we have so many Roundup resistant weeds throughout the Midwest. So they're cooking up these concoctions of chemicals, full blown respirators, everything else, filling their sprayers and then driving across hundreds of thousands of acres to spray this toxic milieu into the food that's being produced for the consumer downstream. And they are trying to figure out how to kill every day. Here's a farmer, who for tens of thousands of years whose goal was to grow things, whose sole purpose is now to kill things. And so we have gotten so stuck in this phenomenon of anti-death, that we are just killing everything and we're killing ourselves for it.

AUBREY: The idea of life, this is something meaning you've talked about and is, obviously, a big part of my emotional plea is it's a reclassification of what life is. If we really wanted to just survive forever, we could put yourself in some sterile, it probably wouldn't even work, but we could try our best to sterilize ourselves in a bubble somewhere and have some life where we had everything was carefully constructed, there was no danger, we never drove in a car, we never interacted with another person, because they might have this, you could try to do this, but you would not be living at all, you would just be surviving. And I think there needs to be a whole different reclassification of life, all the way from the medical down to the social of like. Alright, what is life? Is it surviving or is it living?

CHARLES: And I call that sacrificing life at the altar of safety, which might make sense if you could actually be immortal. But you can't, there's no such thing. In medicine, they talk about saving lives, no such thing as. There's postponing death but there's no saving lives. The dream, the ultimate dream of technology, is to conquer death. Futurists even write about immortality, and it usually involves some version of what you said. Obviously, you have to control the environment completely to eliminate any possibility of accident, that's considered progress. Progress equals control. The more you can impose it upon the natural world, the more advanced you are, the better off you are, the safer you are. And then the other thing would be to arrest the biological processes of aging and to maybe make backup copies of your consciousness and eventually run them on a silicon matrix or something like that, which involves a delusion about what the self is that it is equal to something that we can quantify that it can be extracted from a web of relationships. If they ever succeed in doing that, what they will have created is a prison for the psyche, an unbelievable hell.

AUBREY: It's the only possibility for the hell that the Bible... Well, maybe not the Bible  but religion has spoken up.

CHARLES: So as Zach was saying, this delusion, this programme of control is actually ironically, anti-life, even as it seeks to stave off death. And it's anti life in the sense you were saying of not just surviving, but living, being fully alive. This idea that you can box yourself in, insulate yourself from every relationship, including the relationship with a virom, with the genetic plenum, and your social relationships. I mean, this is what we're seeing in the time of COVID, this reflex of control painted in stark colors for our eyes.  This is a future that we've been heading toward, more and more isolation, more and more control. We were being shown it. And because the cultural movement toward control is so long and so strong, people accept it as inevitable and it's almost like progress, that education now happens online, and work happens online, and everything is happening in your little box. And if only we could enforce the perimeters of this box even more tightly, then we will be completely safe. In order to be alive, you have to risk surviving anything because life wants to grow. Life, like you were saying before, the human being fundamentally strives for life. The same is true of life as a collective. Earth is becoming more and more alive all the time. With each of these evolutions, the flowering plants, for example, biodiversity increases and increases and increases and each new species contributes to the collective conditions for even more species to come up. We're part of that evolution, to make earth even more alive. That is more important to life than keeping safe and surviving. And I'll just add one more thing. Everybody recognises this purpose of not only being alive, which is not surviving. That's not the highest calling. Anyone of us as parents, you're not a parent yet, but you have people you love too. We can be in a situation where without a second thought, we would sacrifice our own survival for that which we love. And our children and our lovers, those are representatives of life, that are the closest to us, that remind us of our love for all life. When we speak of mission and purpose in some of the work that you do, what is actually that purpose? It's all variance on one thing, which is to serve life and beauty in the world. On some level, we know that that's why we're here. 

AUBREY: All of this talk doesn't mean that there's not the space for prudence.

CHARLES: Safety, third. 

AUBREY: Safety third, and it is third. That was the Burning Man motto. Safety third. A great example is I know a lot of people and I've trained a bit in jujitsu. And one of the risks of rolling in jiu jitsu, especially NoGi is you could get staph, because it sometimes lives on the mat, sometimes people have it. And it doesn't mean that because of their staph, everybody stops rolling and doing jujitsu. But if homie has staph, he doesn't go to the mats and you don't roll with them. And you wait until those mats have been actually cleaned. And an anti-staph thing comes across the mats and that's just prudent. You don't just go rolling around in it, because, yeah, you don't want that, personally. It's not like the war to eliminate it from existence in its entirety. Who knows what complex role it might be playing. But nonetheless, prudence  says, "All right, homie, you're out for a little bit, go get that fix, and maybe even take antibiotics." Probably do. Don't allow this thing to spread and do the thing. That's prudent, and let's prudently clean it. We're not stopping the infinite game of jujitsu from the infinite game of this, and there's a space and a balance for all of these things, the prudence of sometimes being anti but still doing that in the spirit of life itself. We're doing this so that we can continue to roll, continue to play the infinite game of jujitsu, constantly trying to find each other in this chess match of 3D limbs and necks and legs and ankles. It's in the spirit in the service of a different thing. And I think that's where the balance has to come if we're in service of life. But sometimes we must choose the anti path to be in service of life. We have to recapture that balance. And the other thing that really came to me is, remember watching a Ray Kurzweil documentary, and he was so desperately trying to find the place where he could transcend death, and reconnect with his dead father. And the tragedy of it for me, is like, bro, like, brother, it's already there. It already exists, you're already immortal. And you already have access to your father. Like, I don't expect you to take my word for it. But it's like, as we were saying in our podcasts, the Flat Earthers, pretty soon for just tens of thousands of dollars, which is a lot of money, I know, but there's gonna be thousands and thousands of people going in helium balloons to tour the stratosphere and see the curvature of earth against the black of space.

CHARLES: That's an optical illusion though.

AUBREY: But ultimately, we're all going to realise like fuck, all this struggle to be immortal, we were immortal the whole time. We can relax a little bit, but what may not be immortal is the ego, which is this manifestation of it's an apparition, it's an entity that we've generated. And that, yes, we will have to loosen the bounds of that but we are immortal. And we are always connected to those that we've lost.

CHARLES: And we're also always dying too.

AUBREY: And always dying.

CHARLES:  Like who you are now is different than who you were yesterday. And five years old, Aubrey is no longer here.

AUBREY: No; still had a big head.

DR ZACH: Interestingly, though, one of the things that we work a lot in clinics around to eliminate disease is to do emotional release work where you actually release your inner child aspects. We go through visualization of you in the fetal state in the womb. You go back to that space, you give gratitude to that fetus that ended up being your future self. And then you offer that to whatever God the individual embraces which might just be the universe or stars or whatever. And we go through this process from that to remember yourself as young as you can, your first memory, three, five. Picture that child, take that hand, walk around a bit in gratitude, and then let that go. And the speed at which people shift in having let go of these subconscious aspects of themselves is profound again and again. Blows my mind. It speaks to this fractured state of the mind of the human, which is very much what you started with, which was the my-body concept. There's nobody. This is who I am. And if this is who I am, then there really literally is no fetus. There literally is no five-year -old Zach, but the human mind and holding on to those aspects, then we hold on to narratives. I held on to a narrative for quite a while of like, why did you become a doctor? Well, growing up, my mom had some seizure disorder and ended up getting cured of that through prayer and healing, but I was raised around that. So maybe that's why I became a caretaker and wanted this to happen. Some years back realized that is a terrible narrative of anything, That's not at all why I am who I am today. I am right now, because I am right now. It's only by very feeble means that you might concoct some human story about how I am right now. It certainly has nothing to do with my mother and her health conditions at the time. This is an interesting thing that I think you are absolutely right, that there's only right now, there's never been a more beautiful time to be an I am. But there is going to have to be a letting go of the human minds, clinging to the human narrative of who we are.

AUBREY: In the book, ultimately, what I arrived at is that Descartes had it backwards and no slight to him but it's I am; therefore, I think. At this moment, I am. And I have this faculty so I think for now. That's the reversal, but the I am has primacy, to all of the other things that we have. I am, therefore, I can slap my hand. I am; therefore, I can think. But it's I am first, not something, therefore I am. The whole thing has been backwards and I think it's, as you're saying, time to reverse that and recognise us as these eternal emanations and expressions of the one, of life, with the highest infinite capital L that stretches up and down and left and all the way till it wraps around infinity entirely. That's the revolution. That's one way to look at an aspect of what this revolution is. It's not the reduction to the expression of a thing, but the recognition of the thing itself inexorable from the whole.

DR ZACH: I'm very intrigued by the possibility that I am; therefore, I know, instead of I think. I think we are approaching a time where the analytical mind plays less of a role than our knowingness and we start to be able to access the knowledge field directly.

CHARLES: Usually, when you're giving the history of your story about why you became a doctor, it reminded me that usually when someone asks why you did whatever, even if it's like a mom asking a child, it's an invitation to lie. It's an invitation to produce a story that either makes you look good to yourself or to others, to produce a story that fits in with your beliefs about the world. And that process of making an acceptable story is so unconscious, and instantaneous, that we're not aware of it. But that reflex helps perpetuate the patterns that we're stuck in, which is why in addition to the I am; therefore, I know, there's also I just want to give also a nod to the I don't know, the mystery of it all. These narratives, these stories are a way to try to grab hold of the self and to fix reality. It's a control to freeze reality into our categories of understanding. It's not bad to do that. That's a way to create beauty. But we have to understand that it is temporary and when to let go of it, and to step deeper into the mystery.

AUBREY: When I was talking with Matias de Stefano, as a beautiful nine-dimensional cosmology, it certainly appears to me comes from a true gnosis, a remembrance of a truth about his existence on multiple planes. The fourth dimensional reality is the dimension of the infinite now, where the past and the future, which is a story of the third dimension, collapses into the infinite space of the now. This is a place that we've accessed in moments of Samadhi. We found that thing, where we touched it. We touch it and go back, touch it and go back. And not everybody ever touches it, that moment of deep presence, deep, deep presence. It's deep now. And that's what he would call the fourth-dimensional reality where the future in the story is about the future and the story's about the past. That's all gone. All there is is this now. It's always now. Eckhart Tolle, this is the entire process, all of the great mystics, they talk about this. And I think what you were referring to, what it reminded me of was what he calls the fifth dimensional place, which is the knowledge of all possible timelines, and just the knowledge of everything, conclusively, in all of the possible ways. And he has the geometry that accompanies all of this, but there's the now and then there's the purview of all of the possible nows that could possibly exist. It is possible and potentially, there's entities and beings, and maybe we call them angels, and maybe we call them guides, and maybe we call it channeling, and maybe we call it whatever else. But there's support from those places, and we have the ability to access that. And a lot of times that we channel, Vylani's a great example, she's a beautiful conduit of channeling. And one of the insights that she's had, as things come through her is that this feels like me in another place talking to me.It's almost very much like the "Interstellar" moment where it was him actually giving himself support from another dimensional existence, when he passed the quantum field in the black hole. We're this nine dimensional being, that all of these allies and guides might just be yourself, helping ourselves, when we open ourselves to that possibility. He also said, he was like, listen, in the fifth dimension, it's fucking boring. It's boring. You know everything. You know everything. Everything is known. It's very peaceful. And in chaos, you may think, Oh, this is good or you may trick your mind into saying, "Oh, it's better," I'm 5D, these 3D peasants. You might trick yourself, but then you're not even close to 5D, obviously. That's the farthest thing from it. But he's saying that, in that space, all of the 5D beings in this infinite absolute perfect knowledge, so like, fuck it, let's go back to Earth. It's like Vegas. Let's roll the dice. Let's live our lives. Let's forget and learn again and figure it out and play this beautiful game. He's saying the souls are rushing. They're like, yeah, I want to go back to that. I don't want complete knowledge. But there is this beauty of being able to access all of the different dimensional realities. And that was really a beautiful way to think about it. Because I think we have this goal-oriented, masculine, right-wing oriented, I'm going to progress from this to this to this to this, but there's a beauty in the challenge and the sways, in the up and the down in the chords of despair and love and happiness and anger. And all of these things are all playing this beautiful symphony right here. And we get to differentiate the notes. So it's not just one om, it's a million different sounds, and a million different tones that are all being expressed. The 5D beings are like, "Fuck, yeah. I want some more of that." The completion is lovely, but we could have stayed at the ultimate completion in ninth dimensional or first dimensional unicity or pure void, the dow, which is, to me, what the ninth dimension is, the thing that's substrate of all possibility and then the word, the logos, the yes, the young, the emanation from the first dimension, from Singularity. We could have done that but we didn't; we, collectively as God. Nah. Let's play, and this is that beautiful Alan Watts piece about dreaming. If we could dream anything and be anything, we'd eventually dream to a place where we would forget and remember and play the game. And it seems to me that the beauty of it is being able to access all of the different dimensions of who we are, and not discount the third that tells stories and says, "Why did you find it?" I don't know how many times I fucking answered that question. I have an answer for that. But is it the truth? Like your question about why did you become a doctor, or your question about why did you write this essay? I don't fucking know. It's a story. It just was, it was beyond that. So that's, I think, again, the way in which we put value structures on things and then spiritual materialism and these ideas. It's an opportunity for us to loosen our grasp on everything, but not necessarily denigrate anything. It's just loosened but not judged.

DR ZACH: I'm tying that back into your letting go of the knowledge and the unknowing the beauty of the unknowing. And I'll probably misquote this a little bit, but I think it was Christ asked, what is faith? It is the hope of things yet unseen. I love that sense of it, because the word hope is a pregnant word like. It's literally got so much potential in it. It's not a state of being. The future is approaching. I think that's where the unknowing has to be embraced is that while we are increasingly accessing the knowledge field directly, we are enjoying the phenomenon of being third-dimensional, we signed up for this because we enjoy the temporal, because the temporal gives us this sense of capacity to witness beauty that is very difficult, I think in the ninth dimension, because everything is singular. That singularity, you're not able to witness the sunset in the same way you can in a finite body with a temporal experience, with limited sensory neurology. But that somehow attributes these phenomenal colors to something that actually has no color at all. It's a shift in the electromagnetic field, as a solar event, moves over the horizon, there's no color to that. But the human, third dimensional, simple biology allows for this beauty to be witnessed. And that bride of Christ concept of we are here to be witness to the groom, or whatever is. We're here to be witness to the cosmic combination of the feminine and masculine archetype right now. And as those twist together, we will so enjoy the hope of the unknown, as it becomes quickening in us. When we feel this inevitable new life about to emerge. And we'll get that goose-bumping over and over again, that will remind us to let go of the fear and the guilt and to reset the epigenetic potential of the species. We're so on it.

CHARLES: So beautiful. I really appreciate you Zach. The stories that you've told us about birth and death really, there's a spirit that rides those stories. It's like the story itself is using you to speak it and to spread it. And they are powerful medicines. And I also feel what you have witnessed, even the things you don't speak of, being transmitted in your words. So thank you for being faithful to that. 

DR ZACH: You've shown us something profound in your work of how to access the knowledge field. And the last couple of years, I think it's challenged anybody who has stepped forward to speak in the public view, it's challenged everybody to recheck and reevaluate their sense of truth. A dominant narrative has become so, so controlled, that it can create that doubt for a moment of the knowledge that was accessed at the beginning of it. I just honor you for showing us how to stay true through that dark night of the soul of reevaluating is this my knowingness? And once you come back to it, and you know it, know it, and you strike forward in that knowing, what it's going to create for you and your life and the blowback and tension you're showing us, not only access to the knowing, you're showing us what conviction looks like. And I think this is something that's lacking for humanity right now. We are so full of judgment and so afraid of judgment, that we have no conviction, and therefore we are so easily swayed. So I appreciate you for showing us something of that attribute.

CHARLES: Thank you for seeing that. What gets in the way of conviction is the mortgaging of your capacity to know to some other purpose, being accepted, for example. So instead of believing what you know, you believe what is socially or psychologically convenient. But there's always that sneaking suspicion that I'm full of shit. I don't know what I'm talking about. And to access what you're calling conviction, really depends on working through all of those shadow motivations. And, necessarily, that means letting go of knowing some things, especially the ones where you've been right all along, you are willing to let go of that, the things that would be embarrassing to admit that maybe that wasn't true after all. And boy, this kind of reckoning this offering to people to let go of dearly held narratives about themselves in the world is coming up now, this offering. And it's such an incredible moment of transformation.

AUBREY: One thing that you said in the kitchen yesterday, or I guess it was the day before was, you just looked at me and smiled and said, "We've already won. We've already won. But nonetheless, you're out every day, talking to people who are farming, talking to people who are making the world a better place, traveling from here to there, doing your spiritual, metaphysical, physical, intellectual work, and it doesn't stop." And with such admiration, that you can know that we've already won and still know that you're playing a part. That's essential. And this is the paradox that you speak of, also so eloquently, and this is a gift that you've both really given to me as the one who had to be rescued, going all the way back to my moment of fight, fight, fight, it's not going to fucking work. But both of you have said, "No, it's going to work." And still, we have to give it everything we got. And that transmission to me has been like, alright, Hoka Hey, let's go.

CHARLES: It's not that we have to give it everything we've got. It's that that is what is alive. It's fun. It's why we're here. And it doesn't even matter if we're going to make it or not, it doesn't matter.

DR ZACH: And I think one way to, just so people don't walk away thinking I'm working super hard, I think that there was a time where I was and I had a deep sense of responsibility to save the world, or my patients, or whatever it was, and it killed me again and again, to total exhaustion, collapse, loss of friends, family. I've been deconstructed plenty of times for working too hard. I am not doing that anymore. And I've realized a far more effective way to usher in the future, is I do every day because I am. And I frickin’ love loving. I love finding new people in the world, farmers, conscious peoples, the indigenous mindset. I'm traveling because I love people. And I want to see more of the fractals of beauty within the humanity that I'm part of. And that has totally changed the tenor of everything for me. I do not burn out because I'm fed in love every day. I've learned to shift from this exclusive state of am I loved, am I giving enough love to this inclusive state of abundance of holy shoot, this thing really works. The more you just show up in the I am, you will fall in love with everybody around you. And when you do that there is a nurture that starts to happen around you that literally starts to change the genetics of people around you. I do not treat anything anymore. I do not go after teaching anymore. I just love more. And it's so much more effective, because the knowledge field is what the farmer needs. Don't need me. I don't know how to frickin’ farm right? I don't have any wisdom to share about human health. It's a freaking miracle. What would I know about human health? But I can show you what it feels like. I think as we step into it a new sense of purpose is to be I am, to witness the beauty, which will create the sensation of love and we'll find great abundance.

AUBREY: This podcast ends in the way it began, with my blaming the birth canal of my mother instead of recognising maybe I have a big head. As we have to wrap this up, in my own conclusive analysis of both of you and what the message was, there was also that subtle way in which I'm still working through this idea that I have to do more. And it comes out even in my speech, even when I don't actually agree completely with what you said. But what I expressed was a reflection of an unreconciled aspect, that I'm still learning to trust. And so thank you both for the wisdom from the start and the end, and helping me, oh yeah, oh, yeah. It's a subtle difference from what I said to what you both said. But that difference makes all the difference. And same at the beginning. So I'm just honored to be able to learn and grow and continue to learn and grow and contribute in any way with both of you who, you're brothers to the end.

DR ZACH: Thank you. Thanks for bringing us together.

CHARLES: Yep, been a long time coming. Hopefully, it'll happen again. 

AUBREY: Thank you, everybody, for tuning in. We love you. Goodbye.