What if there was a new entheogenic drug you could take that gave you the felt sense of rapturous erotic love? There just might be. Dr. Molly Maloof is a physician, technologist, and entrepreneur who is confident she’s found the mythical Love potion, and is working towards making it available as a treatment in the near future. Having been turned off by what she calls “the sickness billing industrial complex” our medical system has become, Dr. Molly is trying to shift the way medicine works and bring love back into the clinic.

AUBREY: Molly, so good to have you here.

MOLLY: Thank you so much for having me.

AUBREY: Absolutely. So before we got started, you started talking about the neurobiology of love. And actually being able to quantify this thing that has a million definitions, some of which are bullshit. Like, there's songs that say love hurts. I'm like, no, no, no, no. It's not the love that hurts. You got it all wrong. You're misqualifying and quantifying what this thing actually is because it never hurts. This is something else. But let's--

MOLLY: Well, heartbreak can hurt.

AUBREY: All the things that are associated with love, the validation that you may have lost, the way that your ego may be damaged when it leaves, the desire for it may hurt, the longing for it may hurt. But the thing itself, uh-uh, that doesn't hurt. And it's actually helpful if we take this and talk about, like what's happening in this state that we crave more than any other state in our existence? This is the thing. There's no better drug than love, love, love.

MOLLY: Yeah, so when I start with like a little bit of a background on why I kind of got interested in this, and this might be a slightly long diatribe. But I spent my last 10 years optimizing health, and doing all sorts of labs on my clients. I work with executives, investors and entrepreneurs as a private doctor. And I teach at Stanford, of course, on health span. So I'm trying to figure out how do we extend the number of healthy years of living. And it occurred to me in my research that like, oh my god, there's this glaring elephant in the room that I completely missed. And that's that our relationships are the greatest determinant of our long term health and happiness. They literally determine the quantity and the quality of our life.

AUBREY: And not only our romantic relationships, but our relationships in all of our social dynamics. Community, family. 

MOLLY: Exactly. And there's, like, 10 different kinds of love at least, there's all sorts. So, we always assume when we're talking about love, it's romantic love. In particular, I'm studying romantic love, but love itself, we evolved as an attachment device on purpose, as an evolutionary adaptation in order to help us connect, stay together, because it enhances our survival and our chances for reproduction. Without love, we would be less likely to live on this earth. It's a very challenging world out there. And this is why people get lonely. This is why people actually feel this deep pain when they're alone. It's because it's a primitive hunger signal. And actually, MIT researchers discovered this, there's actually a place in the brain that senses loneliness, and sense is it as like, a lack in order to get you to move closer to your tribe. So, people in primitive times would have been on the outskirts of their community. And if they didn't feel lonely, then they wouldn't have enhanced their survival by moving closer to the group.

AUBREY: So, it's this, everything is adaptive if you actually look at it.

MOLLY: Everything's adaptive, including a lot of things that we think are maladaptive are actually very adaptive, like insulin resistance, but we won't get into that today. We're going to talk about, like, specifically, why did we evolve love? So, I've been studying this woman, Helen Fisher's work. So, she's this amazing anthropologist and researcher, who had Matched.com's entire dataset. And so she started studying the actual neurobiology of love. And she developed this theory that I really think makes a ton of sense biologically. And that's that there's sort of three different separate drives of love itself. And the first one is specifically around falling in love. By the way, my company's name is Adamo Bioscience, because it means to fall in love in Latin. So, we're trying to figure out is like, what is--

AUBREY: Adamo.

MOLLY: Adamo. It's a Latin word. Yeah. And basically, what we want to figure out is, since the beginning of time, people have been making songs and starting wars, and like doing all sorts of crazy things over love. So why do we value this so much? And what's really going on in the brain? And Helen came up with this really brilliant sort of model that really blew my mind when I learned about it first. And so, when you think about it like when you're out and you're dating and you're young, and you're looking for a partner, oftentimes, what you're typically attracted to is sex, right? The first thing is like, I want to have sex, I want to have sex with all sorts of kinds of people. 

AUBREY: Older? When you're young, just when you're young. We grow out of that.

MOLLY: Yeah, we don't grow out of that. No, I mean, in fact, I think we still desire to have sex with lots of different types of people. And that's the sex drive. And turns out that we have sex hormones coursing through us, right? We have testosterone and we have estrogen. And if you actually are deficient in testosterone, or estrogen, you will have less of a sex drive, hands down. Which is why a lot of people when they get older, they actually lose their sex drive. And then they do hormone replacement, and like, boom, they start feeling normal again. So, the sex drive is largely hormone dependent. But interestingly, when we find a person that we really like having sex with, and we continuously do this act with them, what happens is the body starts to produce lots of dopamine, norepinephrine and serotonin. So, dopamine is just this pleasure. It's like, ah, this person brings me pleasure, I like them. You start to get addicted to this person. Then the norepinephrine is the obsession. It's like, I need this person. Without them, what am I going to do? And then you have the serotonin, which is like, they make me feel warm and fuzzy inside, and I like this. 

AUBREY: Yeah, and the oxytocin. 

MOLLY: And the oxytocin is actually, interestingly, from that serotonin release. It's a chain reaction. So, testosterone largely contributes to this dopaminergic effect, because we really like sex. And so sex rewards as with dopamine. But if we keep doing this with the same person, then we get more dopamine around this person, it sets off this romantic love sort of chain reaction. And, then the oxytocin is part of the pair bonding drive. So, oxytocin and vasopressin are what bonds us to this person. And we actually evolved to have this pair bonding in order to actually maintain, basically have a child, and keep them alive. So it's not surprising that romantic love doesn't last forever for a lot of people. The sense of romantic love can go. You can kind of go in and out of it in your relationship, because over time, biology has been trying to optimize for you, keeping your genes alive, right? Your child is alive. And so, part of the reason why I started this company, it's, and it may be a long shot. I'm going to put it out there, this is a huge long shot. But my friend stumbled upon a formula that actually reproduces this intense romantic love sensation when you're with someone that you really care about. So, like setting matters, set matters and the person you're with matters. But when you start activating these pathways in the brain, MDMA can also do this. And it's kind of a similar formula to MDMA, but different compounds. You start getting the same hormones released, right? And, interestingly, people have taken this compound and actually ended up getting engaged. And like this happened in the 60s too with MDMA. People would start taking these drugs, and they would be like, "We're doing this." And so with--

AUBREY: I mean, it happened to my partner. Vylana, who was not so interested in a relationship. And then they had an MDMA experience. And that MDMA experience led into a very chaotic and tumultuous two years. And obviously there's many other factors, but this was, this was a little tricky. Sometimes we're just on the edge, right? And she's naturally such a loving being, and so there's naturally so much desire for pair bonding, a desire that this factor was definitely part of the story. You have to put a little asterisk around that experience. But what you casually mentioned, is that your friend discovered kind of the love potion, ultimately.

MOLLY: Yes, like, it's an actual love potion.

AUBREY: Which is like, whoa. 

MOLLY: Like, what are you going to do when you have this weird power? And so, I started reading this book called "Love Drugs" written by these two ethicists. And I actually called them recently, and I was like, "Hey." It took me a while to get through to them. I finally emailed them with my Stanford email, and I was like, hey, I really need to talk to you, because you guys predicted that there's going to be an entire class of drugs emerging in pharmaceuticals that are love drugs. And they wrote an entire book about all the different ethical consequences. And I was like, I'm facing these right now. I'm already trying to figure out what this drug development path is going to look like? My investors are asking me, what is the therapy going to look like? And I need to have ethicists on board because we need to make sure that this is ushered into the world safely, and they don't harm people. It's so important that, I mean, I think if you look at all psychedelics, we just have to be so exquisitely careful with people's psyches. Because if we fuck it up, we can really harm people's lives. But if we do it right, we can actually transform humanity, right? Like, if we can actually get people to know what it feels like to feel love, then to me the real move is realizing you can do it on your own with your own mind. Drugs are, they're a key. 

AUBREY: But just to feel it, just to feel it that one time, that first time where you feel it pure, and you feel it strong, and then you go, oh, my god, this is it. This is something that's really fucking special. I mean, I remember my first MDMA experience, it was in Australia. And I do MDMA in Australia and for the first time, we're going around town, downtown Brisbane, and I'm in love, not only with my partner who I took it with at the time, I'd just started dating. But also everybody. I was seeing people going down. And I remember I saw somebody crying, which must have been like a breakup or a fight with their boyfriend type of situation. And I was like, oh my God. Oh, I love you. I'm so sad that you're sad. And I was just seeing people in a whole different way. And that moment was life altering, to have that not only with my partner, which was great, but also it was universalized in a really beautiful way. And I started to see people and care about people in a different way. And that one experience is something that can really shift. You're encountering numinous love.

MOLLY: This concept of unconditional love, we've always associated with Jesus and religion, and I was raised very Christian. And I was told that I would have to ask Jesus into my heart to be able to experience unconditional love. And what I realized throughout my own experience of life, I kind of like, don't really subscribe to Christianity anymore. Because I've learned all about all sorts of world religions.

AUBREY: Perfect. Now you can name your love potion, Jesus.

MOLLY: This is the Eucharist, guys. No, I'm just kidding.

AUBREY: You're going to take that, Jesus?

MOLLY: No, but it's interesting. So, it's super interesting. So I was looking at the history of love potions, and in pagan polytheistic religions, people would take these psychedelic wines as part of religious ceremonies. And then Christianity comes along and they start saying, oh, you witches creating love potions, you are evil, and you're the devil's work. And they basically took the ritual of the sacramental wine. And they like said, we're going to commandeer and we're going to call this the blood of Christ. And if you drink this non-psychedelic wine, and just imagine that it's psychedelic, and that it'll give you unconditional love, then maybe it will. Now Brian Mureraski wrote the book, "The Immortality Key". And he believes that Christianity kind of slowly, subtly absorbed the pagan polytheistic ritual of psychedelic wines, and then they let go of the psychedelia. Nobody really knows what happened. But we do know that large scale religions often adopt certain things. Like for example, Catholicism and incense, right? Where do you think they got that from? Do you think they just imagined that? No, it came from previous religions that these rituals were taken, and they were sort of absorbed and turned into these new--

AUBREY: The smoke itself was psychotropic. 

MOLLY: There we go.

AUBREY: That was an aspect of it that we've lost. "Oh, it smells good." All right, yeah, that was a part of it. But the concoctions that were actually being used were psychotropic so people were getting kind of gassed.

MOLLY: Imagine if you went to church today, and you actually walked into a room, and you had like this experience of transformation. 

AUBREY: Just hotboxed with love drugs. 

MOLLY: I think this is coming because there's like 13 psychedelic churches in Austin. 13. And I know there's another one being built right now. And I have a friend who's a producer of movies, she's doing a documentary. And she's like, all these churches are trying to work the system to give people drugs. And I'm like, is there anything that wrong? Well yeah, there's all the things that could go wrong with that. Because, first of all, basically, we need to make sure these psychedelic churches just don't end up causing more trauma, right? Like Catholicism, what it's done for... Like, for example, Catholicism basically outlawed sex, because celibacy was considered to be holy, after the church decided they didn't want these priests to let heirs inherit land and property. So they basically just made priests celibate, but the consequence of that was that they actually demented sexuality, and then ended up abusing lots of children. Like 300,000 Children in France. So like, one thing I hope doesn't happen in the psychedelic churches is that they start absorbing these sorts of experiences, and then demented shit happens.

AUBREY: Well, I think that's one interpretation of it. But I think it's actually deeper than that. I mean, when you really start to understand the mechanism of union, sex itself as a way. How do we find God? God is union, God is everything, it's oneness. It's this feeling of connection. And you can experience that with one being. if you can experience that with one being, you can experience God in that state, that state of union. And it seems like, capital R religion, and I don't want to point fingers at one because there's many, especially all the Semitic religions that came out of the desert. There was this thing that's, anything that's a way that you can find a pathway to God, whether it's through medicine, psychedelic, or sex, or all of these different things, let's push those aside so that the only way through is to go to the intermediary, the middleman, which is the priest and which is the church, which grows these big edifices, these buildings, and this is where you go. And it became the most powerful force in the entire world, because it took this drive that we have, that all of us have access to and said no, this is the only way, and then they made everything else the devil including sex, including all of these different drugs and medicines and psychedelic wines. And that's had catastrophic global results. There's just no way, no way you can fucking get around that because when people feel God in their heart, whether it's through sex or whether it's through medicine, their whole approach changes. You can't act the same way. The myth of separation just starts to dissolve. Because you're like, if I know myself as one with you, then fuck, well, I'm probably one with everybody, I'm just not having sex. I'm not in union with them. So it changes it all. And it's very important. And I think, I heard you say that these mystical experiences, these transcendent experiences, including the experience of love, they're important. It's not just about treating a condition. The experience itself is important.

MOLLY: Yeah. And the real question is, like, can medicine and pharmaceuticals actually shift its model towards consciousness, right? Like 5-Meo-DMT is being commercialized for depression. Literally over $100 million has gone into one company, just for 5-MEo-DMT. That shit is God. That is like God direct.

AUBREY: It is pure, it is like the Rainbow Bridge, like the one that connected things to Valhalla.

MOLLY:  I was just like, Oh my God, I feel like I'm staring in the face of infinite intelligence and beauty. And this is what the Bible was like, when it was like, you can't stare at God, it's too much.

AUBREY: It's unbelievable, indescribable. And it's not even seeing, it's knowing. It's a gnosis with you entire being. I remember, so my myself and Vylana were initiated to be able to serve, but it's not something that we do, but we went through the full initiation. So not only do we receive multiple flood doses of 5-MEo, but then we're trained on how to facilitate. And I remember one of my favorite facilitations was, we give it to this young woman, and she just pops up in the middle of that experience. She goes, "It's real! I fucking knew it! It's real and I knew it! I was like, "Yes." And you just have this experience where like, oh, all of this talk about God, this chatter, chatter, chatter, and then all of a sudden, you're there, and you've become part of God. 

MOLLY: Yeah. I mean, literally, I jumped out of my first experience with, I've only done it once. And I came out of it, like, "Oh, my God, what the fuck." And I was with a doctor, a priest and a priestess. And I'm looking at them, and I'm like, "Guys, I'm going back in." I closed my eyes, and I'm like, "Yes!" And I was just like, this is literally bliss. I mean, for a whole week after that, I was like, literally, I felt like I was out of body. Like, for about a week, I was like, here, not here. And then finally, I got back into my body. And I was like, "That was interesting, wow." Like, whoa.

AUBREY: It's difficult to actually integrate that in your life in a way that makes sense. Because you know something, but then it's like, well, fuck, does everything change or does nothing change? I remember that experience.

MOLLY: Well, it all depends on how you integrate it, right? Like, the weirdest thing happened to me, like the weirdest thing happened to me the week after. I get to The Battery in San Francisco. 

AUBREY: What's the battery?

MOLLY: It's like a private club. It was at one point, very fancy, and luxurious. And it still is, but it kind of like, everyone loves San Francisco. And so it's kind of still a cool spot. Like Tim Cook hangs out there. It's cool, but back then it was like happening. It's kind of like Soho House in San Francisco. They didn't really have any other clubs. So, I get there. And I'm on cloud nine, and I'm just like, "Wow, this is crazy." And this priest that I, not priest, he's a rabbi from Israel that I had met. He had very persistently wanted to meet with me. And I'd met him in Israel, at this hotel in Israel. And we had this wonderful conversation. And by the way, I wasn't fully aware of certain religious. Like, I didn't know certain things about different versions of Judaism. And so, like, after our talk, I just give him this big hug. And when I hug people, I hug them, and I push love into their heart. I just do that as a thing. And it's a habit, I can't help it. He kind of pulled back after the hug, and he was like, "Wow, thank you." And then comes and meets with me in San Francisco, and this is the week after 5-MEO-DMT. And he's like, I just needed to let you know that, that hug you gave me kind of changed my life. And I'm like, "Well, what do you mean?" He's like, "Well, so you're like the third woman I've touched ever." And he was like... Certain types of Judaism, they just don't interact with lots of women, right? Like it's--

AUBREY: Same with Buddhism, same--

MOLLY: And he didn't look exactly like a Hasidic Jew. I couldn't really tell. So I was like, fuck, what did I do? And he's like, you basically reminded me, you taught me something in that moment. I literally had this massive awakening epiphany that my religion has been closing me off to like most of humanity. And I'm like, actually need to be connected with all people.

AUBREY: Even beyond humanity, right? The feminine and the masculine, these are the balancing forces. They're archetypes. We condense them because of our mammalian biology into man and woman, but they're archetypes. It's the mother and the father. And if you're closed off to the emanations and expressions of the mother, you're not going to have a balanced life. It's like, it's really impossible to know the full scope of the Divine, which is the unicity of masculine and feminine. It's the place beyond polarity. But until you bring both of those, consciousness and the warmth of existence, you're not going to be able to see the full story. And I think that's a big, I mean, look, all religions, different ways, different paths, it's all--

MOLLY: Most of them are patriarchal. 

AUBREY: They are very patriarchal. And it just seems very antithetical to the idea of knowing God without knowing the feminine as well as the masculine.

MOLLY: In these pagan polytheistic religions, they worshipped Aphrodite, they worshipped Hecate, they worship all these different gods and goddesses. They were all sort of symbolic facets of human life, right, that were personified as gods. And whether they were real or not, like if you study Hinduism, there's so many female goddesses in Hinduism that are wildly fascinating, right? And we just like, for some reason, these major monotheistic religions have basically ushered in this very patriarchal structure, and kind of like left women to be in the supporting role, which I think is a huge disservice. Because like you said, we need both. 

AUBREY: It's fucking absolutely a huge disservice. Yeah, I mean, the rise of the feminine, I think, people can mistake it for the angry feminist feminism, which is like, almost trying to be masculine in a woman's body, which is not the fucking thing. It's like, how about we all no matter what body we have, no matter what genitals we have, guess what? You're all the mother, you just happen to have a dick. Recognize that you in a body is, this body, this is the woman. This is the woman. It's just you have masculine parts, if you want to call it that. 

MOLLY: Totally. 

AUBREY: But to recognize that energy as innate is crucial, and to not have systems and structures that encourage that, encourage us to find and to know ourselves in that way with that deep, loving, nurturing touch of, oh wow, this is me, and wow, this is you, man, we need that. And this is what I see, when I see the rise of the feminine. It's not about genders, it's about the energy, which has been suppressed.

MOLLY: Right. And also, I think that suppression of that feminine energy is actually a massive disservice to men. Because it makes them feel like they have to possess and grab the thing that they can't have. And that is really not the way that life needs to be, because I think a lot of women truly enjoy, and really would enjoy sex a lot more if they didn't feel like they'd be chastised if they enjoyed it, right? Like women are basically told you have to look incredibly sexy, but you're not actually allowed to have sex. And men, you're, like, what the fuck. Sorry about it. It's true and it's just silly. Like, we would all be getting laid way more often if we could actually allow women to enjoy their sexuality, which is part of the reason why I even started this company. Literally 10 years ago, I had a total accidental spiritual awakening with MDMA on accident. I didn't know what I was doing. It was post-Burning Man. I had met this really wonderful man, and we had this really great time. And I was like, let's just continue this for a week in my place and create this love nest. And we just did a bunch of MDMA together and had a bunch of amazing sex. And in that process, I went from having, basically, I had hyperactive arousal, which means when I would experience sex, I wasn't getting wet. And then it would hurt when I had sex and then I wouldn't orgasm. And I was like, for my 20s, I was just like, what's wrong with my sexual function? And it was actually that I'd had some traumatic experiences in college, which by the way, 20% of college girls do. 

AUBREY: At least.

MOLLY: At least, probably double that. And, my earliest sexual experiences were basically reprogrammed in my mind as fear based, right? So the MDMA--

AUBREY: I'm sure your religious upbringing just didn't help.

MOLLY: Oh, and that didn't help. Literally, there was--

AUBREY: Because not only is it a violating sexual experience. It's also the shame that you participated in that experience--

MOLLY: I had so much sexual shame. 

AUBREY: So it's like compounding this issue.

MOLLY: I had so much shame around. Like when I was in fifth grade, I was like, they told us masturbation was wrong, because I went to a Christian grade school. And there was praying and there was a chapel and we had to sing every day. And I remember being like, masturbation is wrong, I've been doing this my entire life. I was like, whoa. And I was like, that can't be right. And then there was a revival in my school and they literally like, it was like a religious hysteria. People were high on God. And I remember they started--

AUBREY: High on judgment, probably.

MOLLY: But they literally were burning books, and CDs. Who has been to a book burning? No one--

AUBREY: I didn't even know CDs were flammable, but...

MOLLY: It was not healthy, right? But I remember thinking like, is anyone else watching how insane and hysterical this thing is? And so, most of my life, my thoughts around sex were like, stay away from that. Don't enjoy that, don't have anything to do with that. And then I have this miraculous experience where literally my sex life overnight went from totally inactive, and totally dissociated, basically, to like, oh my god, I have orgasms, I'm enjoying this, I'm actually turned on, it doesn't hurt anymore. And I was like, what if I shared this with the whole world? And all my friends were like, "You can't do that. You can't tell everyone you did this." I was like, oh, okay, well, yeah, I probably shouldn't talk about that. I was about to become a doctor. It's right before I got my medical license. So, literally until Maps came along, I was like, oh, shit, Maps basically was commercializing MDMA for PTSD. But the real thing that they're doing is fixing the trauma. And PTSD is just a manifestation. There's all sorts of conditions. Not everybody with trauma gets PTSD. Some people get different manifestations. And in fact, a certain part, a large percentage of women who have any sexual trauma, end up with the manifestations of sexual dysfunction, not PTSD. Somewhere around 30% of women with sexual trauma will end up with PTSD, but around 60-80% of them will have some form of sexual dysfunction. So, I actually brought this idea to the company, MindCare. I was talking to Kelsey Ramsden. I was like, "Kelsey, somebody should commercialize MDMA for sexual dysfunction." She's like, "You should do this with us." And I was like, whoa, whoa, female entrepreneur telling me I should join her company and start this movement with her. And I was like, "You go do that, I'm going to start my own company. Because I think I've got a different formula I want to work on." Because I can't do MDMA anymore. It causes me to have horrible depression for a few days. And it's like, sucks, because like, it worked great when I was in my 20s, but for some reason, me and a lot of other people, they do MDMA, and they just have major next week depression, I've actually had friends do MDMA, and they didn't maybe integrate as well as they could have. And it actually helped reactivate their trauma because of the depression that followed. So, I think it's really important to understand that MDMA is like version 1.0 of love drugs, and we needed to get approved. We 100% need Maps to get it approved. Because if they don't get it approved, everything downstream is not going to work. Like we have to support Maps, fundamentally. But look at SSRIs, right? Like, there's like so many different kinds, and different ones work for different people. So like, why not commercialize different versions of love drugs that could potentially help different people? This is the thing we need to figure out is like, why do certain drugs work better for one person versus another? We don't really know. Like, the only way we're going to figure this out is if we do the science.

AUBREY: Yeah, I want to go back a little bit to the repatterning sexual trauma that you experienced, because I think it's important not only to have the medicine, but also the partner. And I think this is the thing, it's not like you can do MDMA, or a love drug 2.0--

MOLLY: That's the thing. I don't know if it's going to work. 

AUBREY: And be with some transactional unreconciled shadow masculine, that's still taking and not in union, not actually listening and, I don't know. It may not be beneficial at all, but the combination, and it's just like the MDMA assisted psychotherapy, right? It's like the MDMA with the incredibly well-trained male and female practitioners, psychotherapists, who are actually helping support you in this repatterning. And I've experienced this with my wife, right? It's the combination of medicine sometimes, but also, me and her working through these things together. That's the thing that's unquantifiable. How do you say, alright, well, this lover, it's something you have to know. It's just like a feeling that you have to have, which goes beyond what you can actually study in kind of a scientific study, because there's no pre-qualification thing, to say how reconciled is your shadow masculine, when you're making love to this person who has this unquantifiable amount of trauma that they don't even know. And their cervix is actually closed, but it's actually energetic, and you couldn't see it with a fucking microscope that you stuck in there. And it's like, it gets very tricky at that point. But it is absolutely necessary. It's one of the most necessary things but this is where you have to start to tell stories and start to understand and people have to come into encounters with people who can just help shepherd them.

MOLLY: Right. 

AUBREY: And this is like the wisdom carriers, like, how do you identify this? How do you learn to trust yourself and learn to trust that the instinct for pleasure, remove all of the shame from that, remove all of that, and then remove all of this transactional nature, this urgency and then also have these medicines that can be helpful, but be mindful, it could also open you up to somebody who's not quite right for you, and a lot of momentum can take place. All of these stories just need to be told and told and carried. And this, if we had a healthy society that was doing this, which we're steering towards, we would have elders. And the elders would be like, "Sit down with me, child. Let me talk to you about these love drugs and about what you can identify in the masculine. And it would be the matrons that would be able to pass this information down. And then the grandfather elders, that would be like, "Son, let me talk to you about this. I know your urges are going to be strong, I remember this, but I want you to see through my eyes how I see a woman, so that you can see that." And all of these things that need. It's going to take a while to shift, but it's absolutely essential. And it is a real revolution that's at hand.

MOLLY: Yeah. I mean, I really do think that the 60s, there was a full on sexual revolution, and it was a little bit free for all, right? But now it's like, we have so much more knowledge. Everything you just mentioned. What can we do with all that knowledge to actually help transform society? One thing I'm really trying to figure out is like, obviously, I'm not going to figure this out on my own. But the more I learned about sexuality, the more I learned about all these people who have like experiences with sexual trauma, and have problems with their sexuality, the more I realized that God, society is all sorts of fucked up when it comes to this. What would a healthy society around sexuality look like? What would that look like? It's so far from that.

AUBREY: That's a very important question. And it's a dangerous question. Because then you look at some other stories, like Starhawk wrote some novels; "The Fifth Sacred Thing" and "The City of Refuge", and she hypothesized this utopian society, in which case and it goes back to the old mystery schools, where there's actual places. Because it's not just women that have sexual trauma, men do as well. 

MOLLY: Of course they do. 

AUBREY: I don't know what you would qualify as trauma, but I always put so much pressure on myself to perform in the best way possible. It was so important. And through my own family history, through my parents divorce and stories about the reason for the divorce was my father, sexuality, not being as good as my stepfather sexually. So, all of this stuff. Like, oh, wow, the woman who's the most important, amazing woman in my life, my mother would leave the person if the sex wasn't right. And I think it's just a story anyways, that we're just kind of drifted through and found its way to me. And I don't blame anybody for sharing this. Just in these conversations, you know? And so in my head, it was like, well, if I'm not performing sexually, at the best of my ability, the greatest woman that I'll ever have will certainly leave me, and so I come with all of this pressure. And then I find of course as you do, you manifest the situation. It's going to exacerbate your fears. I found a woman in college who was very hard to please sexually. And I was reading books about how to perform sexually. 

MOLLY: Probably has nothing to do with you. 

AUBREY: I was performing. Like, how do you do cunnilingus? I ordered books, like "Sexual Secrets: The Alchemy of Ecstasy." I'm reading, I'm like, alright, I'm fucking, I got this, and I'm really like, paying attention. But she didn't like oral sex, and it was very difficult to please her. She had her own traumas and stuff.

MOLLY: She probably had some trauma.

AUBREY: Of course. And then, if she didn't orgasm, if she didn't climax, she would just look at me and go, "Ugh." And turn over, and sometimes just turn her back to me and start masturbating. 

MOLLY: Oh, my God. 

AUBREY: Right? And I was like...

MOLLY: Dude, if that happened to me, I would lose my shit.

AUBREY: But I internalized at all like, I'm a fucking failure. I'm just such a failure. I fucked up.

MOLLY: Well, the problem is we look at sex as this thing that's such, like America's sex life is like a performative act, right? Like it's all based on porn these days. All these kids, all they know about sex is everything they've seen on porn, that they've been watching their entire lives. And I'm just like, whoa, really good sex is not about the orgasm, it's about the entire experience. The orgasm could happen or not. And there are so many different. Well, first of all, women have, actually, I don't know about this with men, but I definitely know that about my own body, and that there's all sorts of ways to orgasm as a woman. But like, I don't think a lot of women know this. And I also think there's this sort of obsession with the ejaculatory orgasm in men, and the clitoral orgasm in women. And everyone's like, this is the orgasm that we must all achieve. And there's actually all sorts of other ways to experience orgasmic bliss. And yet, everyone's just like, no, we have to do this thing, this event. And that pressure kind of ruins the bliss because it's like, we're all expecting this one thing to happen. 

AUBREY: Absolutely. So, after that period, I would obviously look forward to sex, but look forward to it with absolute dread. Because this is like my entire manhood, my everything was wrapped up in whether this thing was going to be achieved, whether I was going to stay fully erect the whole time. And obviously, condoms are a difficult thing to manage when you're also under all that pressure. All of these different factors were going on. So, it's this combination of desire and dread that I was all dealing with, until finally, I found my partner, Caitlin, and we had a beautiful relationship, and it all started to really heal. I started to... I was oh, okay, it's all okay. So, I found a partner. And also at that point, I was doing MDMA and we would do MDMA. So, I found my own healing that then allowed me to be in a state where now fast forward, I can be with Vylana and have healed through my totally sexual trauma. And there's even still little parts that I still have to unlock deeper levels of trust, and deeper levels of faith in myself and not being disconnected from my cock's being like, I fucking hope you do your job today, you son of a bitch. Like, don't let me down? How dare you? But being like, no, this is me, I don't need to separate myself from this. So, going back to that, I just want to highlight the male sexual trauma. But also then, if you look at this, then extend it to society and then go back to the old ways in the mystery schools, it gets kind of interesting, because that is so taboo to be like, you could go to a place where there was people who could teach young men about how to engage in divine sexuality, and maybe have these aphrodisiacs. And I'm just like, never, no, we could never fucking do that. But why not? 

MOLLY: I mean, I arguably believe that probably women were running these temples. 

AUBREY: Oh, they were. And that was it. It was it, these temples of love, right? These sacred, whether it's Isis or whatever. And then, of course, as the patriarchy came through and kind of squashed all of this, we lost all this, but--

MOLLY: Because the patriarchy looks at feminine sexuality, as this massive, powerful, intrusive force that creates life. And that is such a threat, because it's just like, you got this power to literally sustain the species and we need to make sure we control that. And to me that's the fundamental rift between men and women that we need to end this. It's unnecessary. We work together here to thrive and flourish.

AUBREY: There's even potentially some more magical fears that come from this, because in those heightened states of sexual ecstasy and bliss that a woman can have, this is where the manifestation powers can act seriously stronger. This is where, like, actual magic is available. 

MOLLY: Oh, for real. 

AUBREY: So, if you're peddling some fake ass magic, and you're like, oh, those women over there in the circle in the clearing, and they're going into ecstatic bliss together with their flying ointment and their sexuality, and they're doing real magic, and we got this weak ass bullshit from a dusty book, like, fuck them. They're a threat. And it's just threat removal is really what we've experienced. But yes, it is this creative power that should be worshipped and revered, but also power. There's legitimate available power in the feminine, and the intuitive power. And it's not to say that men don't also have power. 

MOLLY: They 100% do. 

AUBREY: But it's like, there's been this, I think, fear that men have had, who don't know their own power, who don't trust themselves, of the feminine having access to that power. But if you squash it down, have women competing against each other, tell them all of these things, then you can keep it in control. 

MOLLY: "There's scarcity of men. We're going to run out of dudes." Telling my girlfriends that are looking for partners, I'm like, you realize there's billions of people on this earth, billions. There are literally... There's like more than enough to go around. And yet we have this scarcity mindset in our culture. And it's just like, I really do think that if women want to rise, we have to learn to support each other, we have to lift each other up. And I don't see it enough, honestly. I make it a major priority of it. But I definitely have seen women tear each other down. And it's like, it's not helping. And on top of that, like the #MeToo movement, when it first started happening, I was like, fuck, yeah, we need to stand up. And then I was like, oh, shit. I don't know if we're doing this right. Because I actually think it's alienating women in business, from men's circles, from men's meetings, for men's after-work gatherings. And men are starting to get more and more afraid of their inability to control themselves with women. And I don't know what the answer is. But I do know that this idea that you kind of brought up, that may be from the mystery schools of like, what if we all got together and just like had better education around all this? Like, what if there was a way that men could feel safe to explore their sexuality and their urges and their understanding. Let me tell you something? I once got dosed with a man's amount of testosterone by accident at a company that I was working at. I was sitting on a chair and we were making custom compounded nutraceuticals and hormones. It was like personalized medicine. And I sat on this chair and I got this stuff on my arm. And I was like, oh, wow, that's weird. That chair's slippery, must have been like polish or something.

AUBREY: So, a man rubbed testosterone cream on his inner forearm--

MOLLY: He sat on the chair, and I sat on the chair. And I start looking at my boss and my coworkers, and I'm like, "Oh my God, why do I want to do things with my coworkers?" Like this is making no sense. And I'm like, what is wrong with me? I go to the bathroom. I'm just like, looking at. I put my hands on the countertop, and I'm like, looking in the mirror, like, "Molly, what's wrong with you?" And I was like, oh, testosterone. Oh shit, oh my god, I've got a man's amount of testosterone in me today. This is wild. And I was like, if I had to deal with this every day, I don't know. I think women actually should just get prescribed a man's amount of testosterone for like a week, and just walk through society feeling that turned on, feeling that level of like, holy shit, that's what it's like to have a man's amount of sex drive. And I think if women understood that, they'd be like, whoa. And I think every man should go to a gay club, and just dance with a bunch of gay guys, and know what it feels like to have a bunch of people objectify you and look at you as an object that they could possess.

AUBREY: I think that's a powerful recommendation, honestly. I mean, you can't really recommend anything. But it would be very illuminating to understand, to be able to see through each other's eyes. And, look, this is also, taking that to the next level, like, if a man has never received any energy inside them, they don't understand what it's like for a woman to receive energy. You can't also recommend that every man have some kind of anal experience and this is not desirable...

MOLLY: I actually had a guy friend tell me that recently. He's like, I think all men really need to have more anal stimulation. I think it'd be good for them. And I was like, "What?"

AUBREY: I'm someone who is as openminded as I am, and is absolutely in honor and worship of all aspects and all of the buttons, I'm still reticent. I'm still reticent to do it, but some part of me knows like, "Come on, man." 

MOLLY: Well, like the prostate, and the Bartholin glands in a woman are like the analogous structures. This is getting really dirty, but when women squirt, it's kind of the same thing as the prostate, that prostatic fluid, right? So, like one of my guy friends who's like, he's a legendary human. I'm not going to mention his name. But he was just describing how he's like, yeah, and so like, "Finally, when I got to know my prostate, it transformed my sex life." And I was like, whoa, dude, go teach that to dudes. That being said, I think it's like, we need to sort of demystify all this, and not as scary or worrisome and just be like, I'll just be curious about these things. I'm not trying to get everyone to become poly.

AUBREY: And there's so much homophobia too. That's what this issue meant. And I heard you mentioned poly, I think we should talk about it, because I lived poly for eight years. But ultimately, this homophobia, that if you start playing with that ass, or what if you like it too much? If you like it too much, what if you're bisexual? Or what if you're gay? Okay, so fucking what? Like, so what? 

MOLLY: So what? So what, you want to experiment.

AUBREY: I think this, just opening and it's starting to happen. People are getting more relaxed, but it's still in there. I mean, the word gay was an insult that you would casually throw around about anything. It could be like a movie or a party or something. You wanted to say it was bad, or you didn't like it? You use the word gay. And this was like, this is my childhood growing up all the way into my 20s, until people were like, no, don't say that. And you're like, yeah, wow, I can't believe we were saying that. And these things that have been patterned in people that need to get unpatterned, and realize. One of my really good friends is Jason Ellis, who's openly bisexual, and he's tatted head to toe, pro skateboarder, just as masculine a guy as you can come across. But talking to him about his bisexual experiences, and I think talking about the difference between him being a top and him being a bottom, and he was like, well, you know, for a long time, I was a top. But then I realized, that's like surfing but not wanting to get barreled, not wanting to find that sweet spot. Being on the bottom is where it's at. That's like, that's the barrel of the wave right there. And I was like, whoa. And I really believe him. But nonetheless, it's still these interesting taboos that don't allow you to fully understand, like, we don't see each other. And I think this is a big part of the healing of the masculine and feminine is not judging and othering the other person but how can I see them?

MOLLY: And, also respecting those people in the world, including, I do feel largely, mostly monogamous. And then also a little bit monogamish, like curious, but not really poly. Definitely not poly. But I deeply respect everyone's proclivities, because it's all about love at the end of the day. It's all about like, how do you want to love? How do you want to be loved? None of that is wrong, as long as you respect the other person and treat them the way you would want to be treated. And you're kind, and you're caring, and you're empathetic. There's this thing that people just really need to do, and it's called talk about sex before you have it with people. I think a lot of people could just sit down and be like, there's a safe sex elevator speech. I learned this and I kind of modified it from this guy, Charlie Glick. And it's like, when were you last tested? What were the results? What are your likes? What are your dislikes? What are your safe sex protocols? What are your agreements? Who are you bonded to? Who is your relationship? Do you have a primary relationship? Do you have a monogamous relationship? Are you married? People just don't have these conversations. Are you just out of a relationship? Right? Have these conversations before you go engage. And then, I kind of added a few more things, which is, what are your fears? What are your desires? And the last one is, what's your safe word? 

AUBREY: Let's go. Let's go.

MOLLY: But it's funny, I think the more you actually openly talk about this stuff, the more it actually slows things down between people. Actually, I think everybody could just slow down. Because I just think hopping into bed with people immediately, without really getting to know them, we could all be safer. We could all actually usher in a much safer sexual positive movement that didn't involve getting syphilis or gonorrhea or chlamydia or HIV, that was actually about really caring about people's psyches and loving them and making sure that they're not harmed in the process of these experiences. Because there's always a power differential, almost always, which is what makes sex so great. The polarity of two people.

AUBREY: And exacerbating that is also a very rich portal of, alright, let's stretch the polarity of dominant and submissive. Either sex can participate. 

MOLLY: 100%.

AUBREY: But let's stretch the polarity really wide. But there's still so much shame and judgment around it, despite the fact that there's all these clinical studies that are testing people who are in the BDSM, or power exchange movement, and they're more socially adaptive, they're genuinely happier. They're freer in a lot of ways and a lot of qualities. But still, a lot of people have a lot of judgment. But nonetheless, when a book like "50 Shades of Grey" comes out, every single person's reading it, I remember I was on a flight when that book came out. And I looked around me, and there were seven different women independently reading the same book. And I was like, whoa. There's some deep stuff there, but it's still somewhat shameful in all of these ways. But if you open this up, just evaporate all the shame and be like, "What are you into?" What are you feeling like?

MOLLY: Well, a lot of people just really want to let go. They want to be able to surrender and go to the experience of sex, and that's what makes great sex, is we can just let go. I just did this ride yesterday, on the top, like that point, what was that building--

AUBREY: Stratosphere. 

MOLLY: Stratosphere. And one of my friends was like, "I don't want to do this ride, it's going to make me nauseous. Don't make me do it." I'm like, "You're doing it." He gets on the ride, I'm like, just completely let go to the experience. I know, you think it's going to be terrible, but it's going to be amazing. And we go up, and we just like... I mean, you're basically shot up upwards, and you lose all gravity, and it feels like you're falling and it's terrifying. But, if you just let go into that experience, it's just exquisite. It's just like, this is phenomenal. And I think the biggest problem and even Ann Shulgin mentioned this when she would describe her experiences with drugs and sex. She was like, the real secret is the ability to have untensedness. One of her favorite psychedelics was 2C-B and 2C-B-FLY. Those were two of her and Shulgin's favorites. One of his ways of evaluating his drugs, the tryptamines and then tachogens, was like, how well did it work with sex? And literally, that was one of their qualifying. Like, is this a good drug? That doesn't work with sex, ah.

AUBREY: Yeah, I mean, what a great thing to stack with. People talk about, "Oh, there's this stack." Yeah, how about you stack it with amazing sex. What are you looking for? Are you looking for this incredible bonding mystical experience? How about this is part of the stack? Obviously, the right setting, people around the right energy, of course. But this is a very powerful force. And we're just starting to put it back in its proper, or some of us, putting it back in its proper place of, this is sacred and powerful. And if we open the conversation, then a lot of the shadow behaviors of sex will start to go away. Because it won't be like this thing, like, I'm not going to look at it, I'm not going to look at it. Oh my god, fuck, oh God, or whatever the thing is. It's like that all of that tension, then creates the breaking point in the psyche, where you just go to grab that thing. Can happen with anything. Can happen with money too. So many spiritual people have renounced money and said, money is the root of all evil. I've experienced this in the spiritual community. Then we'll get into some business transaction, they'll get access to a little bit of money, and they get, they snap and get super greedy, and they're like trying to take a whole bunch more money. Like, whoa, whoa, where did this come from? But it's the repression that creates like a kink in a hose. As soon as it's unkinked, boom. It's like this response. And this is happening with sex constantly. 

MOLLY: Totally. I was just so glad we were able to have these conversations, because I really feel like people are just like, what are we doing, right? Like everyone is so confused these days. I literally see it everywhere. And I think if we don't start having these conversations more regularly about our differences, and our desires, and our sexual proclivities, and our traumas, it's going to make it okay for other people to have these conversations, the more we have them out in the open. Because they are taboo. I mean, literally I recently realized, I was at a concert in Austin. I was just like, I'm starting a drug company, it's trying to help people heal their sexuality and their relationships. And I'm at a rock and roll concert. My life is actually becoming sex, drugs, and rock and roll. I was like, did you ever think that you were going to be here someday? And I was like--

AUBREY: I mean, The Doctor of Sex, Drugs and Rock and Roll is pretty good.

MOLLY: Well, the funniest thing is that my brand was Dr. Molly before I even started this company. I did not know that this was going to be part of my journey. I did not expect it.

AUBREY: The universe winks.

MOLLY: Well, the funny thing is I saw the psychedelic movement, right? People will probably think I'm so weird when I tell them all these weird, like spiritual experiences I've had. So, I was having this psychedelic movement. I saw it was starting in 2019. And I was like, gosh, I think I should be a part of this. I was fasting for three days, and I was with my friend at his family's estate. And I thought we were on a date, but it really wasn't a date, because he was literally just there too fast. He was like, "I want to learn how to fast and you're a fasting expert." And I was like, "Fine." So the whole time he's ignoring me, and I'm pretty turned off because I'm not eating, and I'm not doing anything. So we're meditating, and hanging out in the sun in a swimsuit, not eating. And after that day, I went and I worked out at the hotel that was nearby and did a sauna. So all these mitochondrial bioenergetic capacity building techniques that I study, and I've used. And then I went, hung out with my friends, said goodbye to this guy, had a beautiful meal, went out with my friends, like connected with my community. And then go home that night, and I'm laying in bed and I'm just envisioning building some sort of psychedelic company. And I literally out of the blue start having a completely handsfree, touch free, involuntary, full body orgasm. And I was like, "What the fuck is happening? Am I being fucked by a ghost?" How am I going to tell my friends this? 

AUBREY: The invisible man got you.

MOLLY: Nobody's going to believe me. Like, what just happened to my body? And I called my friend who's like this spiritual sound healer and just teacher, and I go, "Hey, Raquel, did that thing that happened to you, that Kundalini awakening involve a lot of orgasmic bliss?" And she's like, "Yeah." And I was like, "Okay, that thing happened to me. What does that mean?" She's like, "Well, kind of means your entire life's going to change." And I was like, No, I'm not ready for that. I have too many things I've got to do. She's like, "You've got to surrender." And I was like, fuck. So I started reading books on this. And I was like, oh crap, like, literally, this is going to turn my entire life upside down. I was like, goddammit. I started meditating, started going to meditation retreats, started going to these things called Quepasana. This guy, Jorge Yant is like a legendary businessman and meditation teacher, who's modified Vipassana into a modern version of it. It's like for the modern individual. And I started having just this massive transformation of my consciousness, and total ego dissolution and total reconstruction, and looking at my shadow. And in that whole process, it just kind of kept leading me further and further into this direction. And then COVID hits, and I see the psychedelic movement just blasting off. All these people that used to call me crazy for talking about psychedelics in the PayPal Mafia world, they were all building companies around it. And I was just like, whoa, guys, you literally called me nuts for telling you to drop acid 10 years ago in Maui, and now you're starting companies investing in them. And 90% of these companies are run by men. And I was like, You know what? Look, we got one life to live. I'm smart enough. I teach at Stanford. I'm a great doctor, and I've been a pioneer in my space for years. I'm probably smart enough to do this. And even if I fail, I'm going to try. And so, I was like, I'm going to start a psychedelic company. Well, I thought about it. And I went to this investor who I'm friends with. I'm an adviser of his company, and he runs a family office. I go, "Hey, what do you think I should do? I'm kind of stuck." I'm like, do I become like Dr. Molly, next generation of Dr. Oz, and like Andrew Weil but a woman in the media? Or do I start this company that tries to bring a love drug to market to help heal sexuality and help improve human relationships and help heal women? And he's like, well, the former is evolutionary, because you're just the evolution of these dude doctors. But the latter is revolutionary. So he's like, it's really hard, it's going to be really fucking tough. But he's like, but if you really want to do this, fuck, I'll lead you around. I'll give you two million and we'll fund you. And I was like, whoa, dude, if I've got a lead, that means I can do this. So I just started the company. And I was just, I'm just going to go for it, and see what happens. And look, it's a long shot like everything else in life. But I think importantly, if we don't go out and try to shift the way medicine looks, then it's just going to keep looking the way it does. And it's imploding upon itself. I had been watching medicine implode for the last 15 years. I mean, I've been working in healthcare since ninth grade. I've literally spent my entire life becoming a doctor. I wanted to become a doctor in fifth grade. And I knew it was my journey, I knew it was my calling. And I'd become a doctor, and I'm just like, this is literally a nightmare. This system is a nightmare. And these doctors--

AUBREY: Yeah, for-profit sick care.

MOLLY: It's a sickness billing industrial complex that was derived from military medicine. Literally, that's how it evolved. And it's great for fixing you if you get your arm blown off--

AUBREY: Sickness billing industrial complex. 

MOLLY: It's exactly what it is. It's not a healthcare system. Health care would create health, and it would care about people. And creating health would mean it would help people adapt and self-manage in the face of adversity. And tell me, did this healthcare system do that for America during COVID? Arguably not. Arguably, it's left a lot of people in debt, it's left a lot of people broken. We have this, we have this system where doctors I'm talking to daily are literally losing it. They have so much PTSD. I've talked to so many doctors that are just like, I have all the money I need, and I go to work every day. And I'm like, is this it? Is this it? And I basically left the mainstream system and started building my own sort of version of health span medicine. People thought it was nuts. My parents thought I was crazy. They were like, you're a nutjob, what are you fucking thinking leaving mainstream medicine trying to do your own thing in the middle of the most competitive place in the fucking Americas? And I was like, "Yeah, I'm going to do that, and you should believe in me." And they're like, we think you're a fool. And I was like, "Oh, shit." And then my friend came over and I was crying on the floor, and he's just like, "Molly, you got to pick yourself up off the ground," and he's like, "You have to get your shit together." He's like, "If you don't believe in yourself, nobody will." And he's like, "I'm going to give you these tarot cards." And I was like, "What am I going to do with these tarot cards, dude?" He's like, "Look, I'm going to do your tarot," and he pulls out the fool card. And I was like, "Oh my god, the fool. What the fuck, I am a fool. I made a huge mistake." And he's like, "No, Molly, the fool is like a really fucking great card because you're literally doing something that might look crazy, but also might work. And it's the beginning of an entire journey, the entire hero's journey you're going on." And the thing about life is that you're going to go on multiple hero's journeys. And they're going to take you to places that you didn't expect to go. But if you don't go out, and try and have courage and lead with love, then you're going to just continue living the same mundane existence you're going for.

AUBREY: To live that blisteringly true life to you, and let's say you "fail" at the end. who gives a fuck? 

MOLLY: Who gives a fuck?

AUBREY: No one's ever regretted, like, do you hear that deathbed regret of like, I gave it everything I got? I poured my heart, soul, passion and love into building something that I believe would change the world. And it didn't work out. I wish I would have never done that. No. Nobody says that. Nobody says that. They're like, fuck yeah, I gave it my best. What they regret is, I've played it safe. I just followed, I stayed in the routine. I did what I was supposed to do. But I never really went for that thing that I knew that I could possibly do. And that's the thing that people don't realize, is this idea of playing it safe, that's going to yield a good result. No, it's not. Fucking go for it. Go for it. Go out on your shield. So what? This is what we're here to live. Hoka hey.

MOLLY: If you're going to go for anything in life, you just have to put yourself in the arena. You just have to. And like, yeah, you might get partially injured or killed. But at the same time, I know people are going to call me out, and they're going to be like, this woman is evil, this woman is the devil. She's trying to usher in sex and drugs. She's going to cause all sorts of havoc. And it's like, no, actually, I think I'm one of the more responsible people in the world that's trying to do good, you know? 

AUBREY: And then you have the people who know you, and who'll be like, as those attacks come, they'll be like, no, no, side to side, like, no, fuck y'all. You want to go through her, you're going to have to come through me, and them and them and them and them and them. And this force is starting to build. And that's one of the beautiful things. I mean, yes, this time has highlighted how deeply, deeply flawed our system is. I mean, you can look at Dr. Vivek Murthy talking about how loneliness is the number one epidemic in the world, and all the studies about loneliness, you can--

MOLLY: And it's so simple to solve. It's so simple, it's community. 

AUBREY: It's a community. 

MOLLY: It is literally connecting with people. That is the only thing you need to do. And by the way, we should have drugs that are legal that are enabled to be given to groups. There's no reason why you shouldn't be able to go to a group sound ceremony, and take ketamine legally. There's zero reason. It's super fucking safe.

AUBREY: Call up John Hopkins, and put it in an arena. I feel you. I feel you.

MOLLY: We need these group experiences. This is why ayahuasca is so important, right? It's like, we need to have seriously sanctioned group experiences that bring us together in a place of love and connection. And we also need to be able to, like for example, meditation is also a great way to get there. And meditating in a group of people is one of the most powerful experiences you can have. 

AUBREY: Sure, breathwork with a group--

MOLLY: Whether you do drugs or not.

AUBREY: Yeah, this is what my organization, Fit For Service, is all about. We bring people together through initiatory transcendent experiences and sharings. And at the end, people form friends on ships that are deeper than friendships they've ever had in their life, just from these processes, these shared processes. We don't even use the medicine. We use the medicines of breath, the medicines of ecstatic dance, the medicines of meditation and sound healing, and soul quests and soul wanders out in the wild, and these accounts, and the sharing circles. There's technologies that don't even require external exogenous substances, but are available, and it's just that intelligence. But going back to what I was saying, we understand that loneliness is this absolute epidemic. We understand that obesity is one of the leading risk causes for all COVID mortalities, right? This is not a debatable fact. But how much effort with the trillions of dollars we've launched, have we put towards loneliness or obesity? And it's like, where? It's like fucking crickets when you look out there. And if that doesn't wake people up to that this is not health, this is about something else, I don't know what will, because these are glaringly obvious. And so it's isolation, and this last stage intervention. And whatever you feel about those, fine. But let's look at these big, massive, massive things that are not being addressed. 

MOLLY: Imagine if we can bring a love drug to the world that's a self-love drug, that teaches you about loving who you are, what would that do?

AUBREY: Change everything. 

MOLLY: Right? Like when I finally, finally truly learned to love myself, which was literally in the last year, holy shit, did it change my entire reality. And it's made it so easy for me to love people, just so easy for me to just send love to people.

AUBREY: It's almost a prerequisite honestly. 

MOLLY: It really is.

AUBREY: It's very difficult to love another if you don't love yourself.

MOLLY: Really is, absolutely true. And the thing is, obesity is such a... Whenever I see an obese person, it's like, I am seeing two things. They're unconscious to their eating behavior, or there's often major trauma under the surface. And what people don't realize is that when you develop insulin resistance and you over consume, and you eat because of stress, which a lot of people in impoverished situations do, the only food available to them is the unhealthy packaged processed foods and fast foods, because that's all they can afford. Basically, those foods and that stress response, literally in primitive times, we would have sought food in order to help survive. It's a primitive impulse to just seek food to survive, it literally is baked into our biology. And like insulin resistance, which I've discovered through my research was actually an adaptive response in the short term. It's actually an adaptive response in the short term. If there's no food available, your body actually naturally becomes insulin resistant, in order to enable you to actually fight off infection, put on food very quickly, and actually be able to mobilize that available to you. Basically be able to keep blood sugar in your bloodstream. So you'll feel available to your brain. So you can get out of danger, right? So, insulin resistance would naturally raise your blood sugar. And I basically look at obesity and a lot of things as adaptive responses that are gone awry in chronic situations. So, chronic stress just means people chronically eat. And if we just taught people these basic understandings of their biology, maybe the government could actually do something. like maybe they could actually just teach people. This is how your biology works. You're going to crave food, and unhealthy food. But these food companies, they're taking advantage of that primitive desire to survive, and they're just shoving food in your face. Selling it with sex, by the way, and saying, look at all these movie stars and pop stars that sold soda. Like Coke says, they literally sell Coke, and it's two teenage people falling in love. Coke is love. Fuck you, Coca Cola. Literally, fuck you. That is not love. That is literally causing disease, fundamentally. This is what happens, this is just so transparent. 

AUBREY: Well, and the problem is, if we expect the government to actually change any of this, it's not going to happen.

MOLLY: No, it's consciousness.

AUBREY: Because big food, big pharma, big ag, whatever the big, military industrial, big jail. They're the ones that fund all of the campaign contributions anyway. So the government is part listening to what the people need to get elected, but mostly just trying to appease all of these massive forces, the real oligarchs that are kind of running things. So, these transformations and revolutions must come from culture, must come from people. It's going to be these conversations en masse, at large scale that start to inform people. And then looking at all the different things that can help explain. What you said, I absolutely agree with about all of that stuff. And I also listened to Charles Eisenstein, who talked about one of the reasons why he surmises that people reach for food is this self-rejection and self-condemnation, which makes somebody feel smaller and smaller and smaller, because of the desire to eat food creates the one thing in which they can enlarge themselves, enlarge their being, they enlarge their own body in a way. And it's like, maybe for some people, maybe not, who knows, but these interesting ideas about like, instead of just judging somebody, let's just look at, they're attempting to solve a problem. What is the problem? Is the problem stress? Is the problem that they feel so small? Is the problem that they're having coping with, is the problem trauma? Is the problem that they were sexually abused because they were attractive, and they're actually subconsciously trying to make themselves unappealing and unattractive? I had a partner who was sexually abused, and then that caused her to want to be a tomboy. She wanted to discard her femininity, and become more masculine because of that. So, all of these factors. Instead of just lobbing judgments, let's look. There's a reason. Let's try to help them find the reason, hold their hand and be like, "Hey, let's look around here."

MOLLY: When's the last time your doctor asked you, what's your core wound? How about that? Like, how about that? How many people know their core wound? Once you know that part of yourself, it literally shifts reality, because you realize how many triggers come from that. Like how many just come from that. Oh, that thing that made me feel safe, because I was happy to adapt to this thing that happened. And everybody has some form of trauma. I mean, almost everybody. I'd say the vast majority of people do. 

AUBREY: Yeah, and a lot of people may not be able to name it until you start to just really kind of see that so much of it is unconscious. 

MOLLY: And a lot of that comes out in these psychedelic experiences. I've had a lot of friends discover it. Like I had a patient and he was just like, there was definitely something buried in his consciousness. And I was just like, I think this guy has sexual trauma. And he even kind of brought it up. And he was like, "Yeah, I know, something happened when I was a kid. I just don't know what it was. Not really sure. And I don't really know where it happened, but it seems just fuzzy to me." And I was like, maybe you want to go try some ketamine assisted therapy. And it was through his therapy that he just is like, "I saw it, I saw what happened. I saw who it was with. I remembered everything crystal clear. I forgave them. I realized it wasn't my fault." And he's like, "I feel so free. I feel like this shame that I've been carrying, that I didn't even know I was carrying, this unconscious shame was just lifted." And he's like, I'm on this new journey, and I feel so much calmer. And I was like, wow. Like, wow.

AUBREY: Yeah, I think it's always to me when someone says, "Yeah, I just don't remember my childhood." I'm like... Uh-oh.

MOLLY: It's called dissociation. 

AUBREY: But you have to be careful, because it's like, you can't say--

MOLLY: You can't really say that.

AUBREY: You can't suggest something. Because then you can suggest something that could go in their mind. And then you also have to know that if they are going to uncover this, they need the right support and care that's going to help them through the whole other side of it, right? 

MOLLY: I really do not condone ketamine. 

AUBREY: It's not like, yeah, fucking take some MDMA, figure it out. Good luck.

MOLLY: No, no, no, no. In fact, I think the most important thing people need to emphasize with all therapy, all psychedelics, is like, if you do not integrate properly, you're uncovering trauma and it's like a gaping wound. And like, you've got to slow that shit up properly if you want the scar to heal. You really got to slow that up. With good suturing, you cannot see a scar. Like it can be very faint, right? But the problem is, a lot of people just leave that wound open because they're just like, they go into these ketamine clinics, and they're hoping to get help. And I've actually seen people come out of them more traumatized and addicted to ketamine. And like, literally, they pursue street ketamine, which we know can be laced with ethanol. We have got to talk about the dark side of psychedelics at some point. Because these ketamine clinics, they can transform you, but they can also damage you, especially if you end up with an addiction like ketamine use, right? If you go into ketamine therapy, thinking you're going to heal your addiction, you end up with a new one, that's a problem with the industry. And this is something that we just all need to start, like self-policing. And I don't think it's being done properly. I think a lot of people are just like, first of all, it's a really good business. People make a lot of money. It's like doctors are charging an enormous amount for very cheap medicine, but for all the care around it, you have to charge for the staff. And in the future, I do think there's going to be a way to make this cheaper, safer, more scalable. I just think we're in this place of everyone figuring it out. I am very concerned, though, that if we don't figure this out, that it's going to kind of spiral out of control.

AUBREY: Yes, yes, and, I think right now we have such a rampant raging inferno of a problem. And we're so conscientious about psychedelics being impeccable in this, so that--

MOLLY: I know, I have such an utopian vision of the world. 

AUBREY: So we're not starting little fires. And I get it. I get it. But meanwhile, fucking bonfires, catastrophic building fires. Fucking world's on fire.

MOLLY: Totally, literally. Germany, there was a massive protest against vaccines yesterday. There was a trampling at Travis Scott's concert.

AUBREY: There's fucking crazy shit happening, and if you look at the number--

MOLLY: People are trying to anaesthetize themselves. 

AUBREY: Yeah, if you look at the numbers of everything that's going on--

MOLLY: Please anaesthetize me. I cannot handle this.

AUBREY: Right. So it's kind of interesting. And I totally agree with you that we should be impeccable, especially at the precipice of a legalization, like do our fucking best. But at the same time, I still err on the side of leniency of, it's still net positive-- 

MOLLY: I'm all for medical freedom first of all. 

AUBREY: It's still net positive. Let's say, hypothetically, in a wild like raging fire, in order to stop the fire from spreading to a different part of the forest, you put a chemical in the water that was going to make the wood less flame retardant which the trees, because it's not great for the trees, and maybe the squirrels don't like it. It's not going to kill them, but it's not the best thing. But nonetheless, you stop a whole forest from burning down. I think the in some ways, even the proliferation of ketamine, let's say, for example, you're habituated to benzos, or habituated to opiates. And all of a sudden, you take low dose ketamine lozenges as a new substitute for that. And it allows you to cope with that, or instead of your habitual alcohol use, right? 

MOLLY: Oh, I've seen a lot of people go off alcohol with ketamine. 

AUBREY: And so, these things are like, yeah, all right, maybe habitual ketamine use isn't exactly optimal. But nonetheless, as a substitute, maybe it's an intermediary. It's going to do way better than a lot of the stuff that's out there. Doesn't mean that some people won't take it way too far, as they always do. But I kind of also want to voice, yes, impeccable, as much as possible. But also, the net effect is going to be dramatically better.

MOLLY: And these lozenges, there's very, very little evidence that they cause bladder toxicity. It's like, you have to be really loading these like daily lots, like all day long. It's really hard for you to abuse them. They don't taste good, taste like shit. They're not a fun thing to put in your mouth. That being said, I do think that you're right. If you really think about it, there's this research that a friend of mine did, she has a TED talk on this. And they gave animals that were about to experience a PTSD level stressor, ketamine, before the experience. And it did not convert to PTSD. Typically, there's a way to induce PTSD in animals through these experiments. So, they ran the same experiment with a given ketamine prior, and it just completely obliterates the PTSD risk.

AUBREY: And then they need to do ketamine therapy on the animals that have PTSD. Like, "Hi, little buddy, it's all right. It's going to be okay." Give him a little scratch behind the ears on some good dose of ketamine. 

MOLLY: Like imagining, refugee camps. Like what if we were to be able to give lozenges to people who are entering a refugee camp for the first time? Like, immediate sense of dissociation and safety and third person view of what's going on. And you're like, "Oh, okay. Okay. This is intense, but we can handle it." 

AUBREY: Right, yeah. I mean, there's this kind of bias of all of these pharmaceuticals that are causing all of these crazy dystopian problems, well, they're okay, because we've already accepted them, and there's all these deaths and overdoses and misdiagnosis and blah, blah, blah. But these new things, watch out, they tend to be sensationalized when this thing happens. I think in Amsterdam, now it's only the truffles that are legal, not the actual caps of the mushroom that are legal. And the reason is that one young woman who took the mushroom caps decided to jump off a bridge. Tragedy, right? 

MOLLY: Yeah.

AUBREY: But that one instance, then sensationalized and changed everything. Meanwhile, like 900 people die of Tylenol overdose every year, and you don't even know that. But like--

MOLLY: And SSRIs have a blackbox warning for teenagers. So that if they take them, they're more likely to commit suicide. SSRIs--

AUBREY: In, sometimes horrible ways. There was a story that was on a documentary that, I can't remember the name. But a woman in college goes to the college doctor, gets subscribed to some SSRIs. I don't know exactly the details of this, it's not really fresh. But she committed suicide by lighting herself on fire. 

MOLLY: I mean…

AUBREY: That one thing doesn't make headline news, right? But you damn sure know when an ayahuasca death happens. Like, you're for sure that's out there everywhere. And I understand, sure, let people know the dangers of ayahuasca. There are dangers. There's dangers of the practitioners taking advantage of the people. There's actual Brujeria. In this place, there's ways in which people can manipulate you when you're opening that conscious level. There's lots of issues that should be talked about, and I make sure to talk about. This is not a panacea and this is not everything is good. But nonetheless, there's horrible shit happening that we're not even looking at. But then we have this really ego myopic gaze, and I think it's because people are afraid of psychedelics. They're afraid of that moment where they take something and they feel love and then they go, "Oh my god, I've never really loved my wife or my kids, like I ever did. And I never loved my life and oh, man. That moment is scary. 

MOLLY: It's terrifying. 

AUBREY: It's scary for people. So it's easier to say no, no, no, make it illegal. Maybe there's some conspiracies or whatever, but I think a lot of the legislation against psychedelics is just people are scared.

MOLLY: They're scared because of like the 60s, and the mass hysteria, and they had to stamp it down. I mean, look at Nixon. He was just like the war on drugs, right? Let's just put a war on this. It's just like, okay, well, you know.

AUBREY: Yeah, if Nixon and Reagan could have had your love potion, who knows?

MOLLY: The funniest thing about Nixon is, so interesting is that he actually started the space program, and literally shot these two probes to space. And literally put like $8 billion into the space program. So, this guy was kind of a doofus, but he did something cool. He didn't understand drugs, but he understood space. So, that was neat. So I can't completely fault him. But I just think that people don't understand these things. They don't realize their power. I had a call from Rick Perry. He's pro-psychedelics. This guy is like full on, let's get these legal in Texas. I mean, if we get taxes on board, come on. Like, maybe?

AUBREY: Well, Texas is now different, Texas is not the Texas it used to be. And Florida is not the Florida it used to be. Florida used to be the butt of a joke. But now it's like--

MOLLY: Now it's cool. 

AUBREY: Damn, Florida is fucking... 

MOLLY: Florida got sexy. 

AUBREY: Florida got sexy as fuck lately. So, it's interesting what the times have had, and those are the things that are, it's cool to just look at, and look at how things are evolving, and how all of these things that you used to take for granted are now different. I remember, I went to a party. And it was in a community in Austin, and a really spiritual community. I mean, sound healings and medicine ceremonies, and that's the only context I knew them at. And it was a party during the election. And I was like, alright, well, I'll go, they want to have this party. And it was like, super pro-Trump party. And I was like, whoa! All of you fucking sound healing, psilocybin journey, what? I was like, whoa, like, this is interesting. And I certainly didn't agree with a lot of the rhetoric of what they are talking about. But it was interesting to see, this is not what I expected at all.

MOLLY: I mean, America looks so different. 

AUBREY: Things are so different than they used to be, right and left. And all of these judgments that we used to have, let's all just take a step back and be like, alright, what's going on here?

MOLLY: I would like someone to answer that for me, because I was literally walking around Vegas last night being like, why is it that I feel like I'm a stranger in my own country, and I feel more normal in other lands? When I leave the country, I feel like a normal person. In America. I'm like, where are we? What is this place? I've been nomadic for two years. I'm about to probably land in Austin, for at least, I don't know, Austin feels really good these days. 

AUBREY: I hear you.

MOLLY: I'm really loving the energy, the live music's incredible, the people and the vibes, it just feels like normal life there. But, I've been all over the country, and I'm just like, wow, everywhere I go, America just looks so different. Like, everywhere I go, there's so much change. There's a few places that don't really change. Like, my family has a place on this island in Wisconsin. That place doesn't change, and I'm like, I love this spot because it's always the same. But most of the country is just going through a transformation. I think so many people are just like, people are just trying to make sense of it all. It's hard to do sensemaking in a world that's so, so different. There's more people that associate with spiritual but not religious. So there's this massive spiritual, but not religious, who don't even identify with a modern religion. And then there's all these people who are like, I don't have a home, I'm a nomad, I live everywhere. And,  it's just so strange to like, and all these political groups. The vast majority of people I know are like, I'm post-partisan. They're not even into either side. They're like, I don't feel like I relate to Democrats or Republicans. What do we call ourselves? We're in this new mass of people who are trying to figure things out.

AUBREY: And another interesting thing, I've been talking to Daniel Schmachtengerber who--

MOLLY: Oh, I love Daniel. Dear friend of mine. 

AUBREY: Yeah, I love him too. And he's so smart. He's really identifying that we need this cultural revolution to be able to check the powers that be of exponential tech, and all of these different forces that I was mentioning. And it's going to come from the culture. One of the interesting things that he was pointing to that we're going to start a project working on is, taking the religious institutions which still have a lot of traction, right? And if you reduce it down to the mystical roots, like take Judaism, for example. I had this amazing interview with Rabbi Mordecai Finley who's deep into the Kabbalah, and you go to the Kabbalah and you're like, yes. And we were talking about all of me from my 22 years of psychedelic experience, all of my experiences, how they related to the Kabbalah. And then you go into Taoism and your understanding, like my nine dimensional cosmology of the universe and God and which one is the Tao, and which one is the word, and which one is the logos. And how all of these things go in. And you start to find the mystical roots. And the mystical roots of Christianity as like I've talked to Ted Dekker about and different people. And you start to go through and you find these mystical, Sufism, which is like the mystical roots of Islam in many ways. You start to realize that everybody starts to congeal around common truth, just different ways in which they look at it. So, if we can get the religions actually, to start looking back to their roots, back to their mystical roots, and then bring people back through these wisdom traditions, and then use that as a force that can help rally people. And it could be the same for politics, right? Like, say, okay, what is the essence of you're leaning towards liberal? What's the real essence? Not the politics, but the essence. And the essence of conservatism and individual rights and sovereignty and states rights. What is the essence? Can we reduce it to that, and have us attached with that.

MOLLY: A good friend of mine, Tom Chi, do you know this guy? You really should interview this guy. He's an absolute genius. His entire thesis of his investment fund is like, how do I invest in technologies that are net positive for humanity and nature? They basically are like, they offer better returns on investment than traditional technology. So this guy's a real thinker. I was asking him about this sort of dichotomy of liberals versus conservatives. And he's like, “well, look at the roots of the words.” Liberal is all about liberation, it's all about breaking free of convention, it's all about exploration. Conserve is about conservation, conservation of the things that we value, trying to preserve those traditions. We need these polarizing forces, in order to ensure that certain things are not lost, but that we are able to explore. And where can we just keep meeting each other? We just accept that there's these different forces, and we don't fight against each other, we just accept there are certain things that we probably should preserve, there's certain things that we probably should explore. And psychedelics are a great example. We probably should be exploring these. They seem important to consciousness expansion. They might be tools to help us explore consciousness. I 100% predict there's going to be a time in the future, where everyone finally gets it. And it'll probably be like 50 years from now. But like, there's going to be a time where people just realize that you can literally generate so many things with your own mind. There is so much power in our own consciousness. And if you can learn to hone that consciousness, it takes work, massive effort. You have to actually be able to have time and effort to dedicate to spiritual practice. Like, I literally went and meditated at a meditation retreat. And I basically sat there, I wrote every adjective of what MDMA feels like. And I was like, what does MDMA feel like? And I sat there and did a meta meditation, literally thinking about, I feel sensual, I feel connected, I feel alive, and I went through every single adjective. And by the end of that hour meditation, I was full on MDMA, full on met God, Samadhi, had to leave the tent and go to the bathroom and look in the mirror and be like, what the fuck just happened? 

AUBREY: Beautiful. 

MOLLY: It was just an experiment, right? I was like, can my brain do this? And it did. And I was like, okay, I don't think I can teach that to everybody overnight. But if we can get people to start meditating, and get people to start doing 10-day sits, and get people to realize that psychedelics are just one tool in the toolbox, they are a key that unlocks the door. If I didn't know what MDMA felt like, I don't think I'd be able to write all those adjectives. I could bring myself back to that moment through deep concentration. And I was like, goddammit, my mind is incredible. This is bonkers.

AUBREY: And I think this is one of the great things that Dr. Joe Dispenza is doing. 

MOLLY: He's great! 

AUBREY: He's reminding people that this thing called the placebo effect that we try to rule out is actually the magic itself. It's like, what is that? It's the mind changing the body in a substantial way. So substantial, that we have to account for it in every single clinical trial that we do, because it's that fucking powerful. What if you go into that and use that for your own good? And miraculous things are happening. When I went to his retreat, I'm just watching this and hearing stories of people who have used their minds in these ways to transform their health, their lives. And this message of empowerment is not the message that we hear out there. It's like you're a broken machine, you're fucked up, take this pill, and take it forever. And this is the only hope that you got. And so, it's really all of these stories starting to weave together that give people back their power. Time to take our power back. 

MOLLY: It is. And also just empower people to feel like that's possible, right? Sometimes people just feel hopeless. They really just feel like, I don't know how to get out of here. And that's a frequency issue, right? That's just lower vibrational energy. I don't want to get into deep into quantum physics, but literally, you can think your way, you can really just, you can use the power of your thoughts to create the sensation of love in your heart at any time. But you just don't feel like that's possible because things can feel so painful. But like it is a practice, literally a daily practice that you can bring into your life, and you don't need Jesus to do it. Jesus is great. If you need Jesus as a tool to bring love into your heart, awesome. I still pray to Jesus sometimes. But I also just actively close my eyes, regularly generate love. Literally just lay there and be like, oh, love, bathing in love. And it's just this weird thing that you think that you need to get it outside of yourself. You think it's found in this relationship. You think it's found in everything external, but no, literally, you find it internally. And then it magnetizes externally. Everything around you starts becoming more loving. People around you start noticing your loving experience. And they start reflecting back to you what you feel. Literally magical.

AUBREY: One of my favorite things that Ram Dass talks about is about how you open your heart. And he says, find something that you love, anything, doesn't matter. It could be a puppy, it could be a kitten, it could be your partner, it could be a tree, it could be whatever. And just keep loving that thing and love it more, and love it more, and love it more, and love it more until your heart opens--

MOLLY: He also says love the pain. 

AUBREY: And that's a whole other level. And that's the ability that you'll ultimately have once you hone the ability to love. But everybody can start with something they love, and then just love that more, like expand that. Let's turn the volume knob up on this love, and just keep going and that could be your practice. And practice makes the master. That's what Don Miguel Ruiz says about in "Mastery Love". Practice makes the master. 

MOLLY: Yeah. 

AUBREY: Molly, this has been an amazing conversation.

MOLLY: This has been so much more fun. I thought we were going to have fun, but like we went for it today. 

AUBREY: Of course, that's what we do.

MOLLY: We really did great. I mean, this is really, really profound.

AUBREY: Amazing. So what can people do if they want to get more Molly?

MOLLY: Well, first of all, try going to Burning Man when all your friends are looking for you. No one can find you. No one. I mean, the best way to find me is on Instagram, at least @DrMolly.co. You can also email me at mmaloof@stanford.edu. You can also find me on LinkedIn. You can also find me on Twitter @MollyMaloofMD. I'm all over social media. So I'm available.

AUBREY: Beautiful. And are you working with Karen at Harper Wave with a book? Did I see that?

MOLLY: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm working on a book. So I got a book deal. Actually in that meditation retreat I went on in September 2018, I actually envisioned creating a book. And it manifested after I wrote a book proposal with an amazing ghostwriter. She helped me kind of refine the proposal, and then pitched it in February, and reading a book on, it's called "The Spark Factor". It's all about biohacking for women. And it's really about how to create more bioenergetic capacity in your body. How do you create that spark of life? How do you bring more energy into your body and thrive? And all the books that have been written for biohacking are largely written for men. And, I basically read all of them, and did a lot of things that men do. It turns out they don't always work for women. So I discovered a lot of things that make us different. I'm just kind of providing people with some context of when you're going to biohack as a woman, you got to be a little bit more careful about your own biological imperatives that are different. Hormones are different.  

AUBREY: Yeah.

MOLLY: I've made a bunch of mistakes, and I'm trying to help women not make those mistakes. I've also learned a lot of cool things I teach a course at Stanford. And I literally, like have so many slides that I was going over with my ghostwriter I'm working with. We're kind of writing it together. I talk to her and she takes my transcriptions and then she edits everything. And she basically said, "Molly, you have enough content here for 10 books." And I was like, "Well, let's try to do one." And, and then Harper Wave was the publisher I wanted to work with because they work with Dave Asprey, Max [inaudible 01:28:44]. And so I was really stoked to work with them. So, we're almost done with the book and then we'll start the marketing plan and editing next year, and that will come out probably at the  beginning of 2023. 

AUBREY: Well, we'll do another show, then. 

MOLLY: Hell yeah. 

AUBREY: Molly, that was beautiful. Thank you, everybody, for tuning in. So much love. We love you, feel the love, love yourself, love the world. We'll see you soon.