Internal Family Systems is sweeping through psychedelic medicine as one of the preferred modalities to help heal and restructure the psyche. Renowned founder of the system, Dr. Dick Schwartz comes back and brings me through an emotional and vulnerable masterclass of healing for my parts. May my own transformation be a guide to your transformation.

AUBREY: Dick, it's a pleasure to have you back on again. I remember we got to go deeply personal in the last episode. So why not start there? Why not start there again. So, because there was a recent incident, where I needed a reconciliation with my wife, Vylana. And it was actually, some IFS methodology and framework that actually unlocked the possibility for us to reconcile.
DICK: Really honored to hear that.
AUBREY: Yeah, it was, it was really, it was really powerful. So what I could feel is that there was a piece of me that was, because I have stepped into full trust with my wife, like full trust. And then a few incidences happened, where I felt like I was acting in good faith, but there was a rupture that was created from it. And, what ended up happening that I wasn't aware of, we go into our kind of home based journey, which is the combination of ketamine and cannabis, we get prescribed. And so, we go into our basic journey, and I could feel that there was some part of me, part being a keyword. There's a part of me that wasn't willing to actually reconcile with. So, I had the kind of intuition at that point to just name it as a part. And I said, "Vy, look, I have a protector. And the protector is here. And it says, it doesn't trust you. It doesn't trust you. And then she started talking too. Initially, she started talking to me, and saying, "No, I trust you." And I was like, "Well, no, I need you to address not me, I need you to address this part."
DICK: Cool.
AUBREY: And she's like, all right. And she started addressing, and I was like, don't address the part until you ask the part what it has to say.
DICK: That's great.
AUBREY: So that was the first part. She assumed that she knew what the voice of the part would be. But I was like, no, no, we're still in the medicine. But just the intuition was flowing through me. I was like, the part needs to speak. And the part says, "I'm not going to go home. I'm going to stay here until I know that Aubrey is safe." Until I know that Aubrey is safe, here I am. And so, she went through and just listened to that part, listened to what it had said, listened to its explanation of why Aubrey had created it. And, then why it was there and the purpose that it had to keep Aubrey safe, and that she had to convince it, basically to come home. And, I told her as me, I was like, "Look, this part is not coming home until you convince it." And so, it really allowed there to be a connection where I got to say to Vylana, "Look, me, Aubrey, I want this part to come home. But I'm not going to ask it to come home or force it to come home until it's addressed, and it's heard, its voice is heard, and what it feels is assuaged." And then I do have the authority to call it home and it will willingly come home. I am the master of all the parts, and it will come home. But first, it needs to be heard, it needs to be addressed. And we were able to move through it. And it was really beautiful at that final moment where I got to go, "All right, he's home."
DICK: Yeah. What a great story.
AUBREY: Yeah, it was really, really profound actually.
DICK: Yeah, and I can imagine that there's a different relationship between that part and her now than there was before, which makes for more possibilities, right?
AUBREY: Yeah, for sure. And if that part steps forward again, we can name it, actually--
DICK: Listen to it.
AUBREY: And listen to it and explain where it is. I think you just mentioned that you recently wrote a new book, "We Are The Ones You've Been Waiting For"?
DICK: "You're The One You've Been Waiting For".
AUBREY: "You're The One You've Been Waiting For". And it's about couples coming back together. And I think the beautiful thing that I experienced in the couple's framework, was that it really allowed, instead of me and Vylana to be on other sides, it allowed this party to be the thing that we had to reconcile, but like, hey, Vy, me and you are on the same team. We both want the same thing. We both want the part home, however, this has a voice. And it really allowed this comfort and freedom where she wasn't saying, "Well, why aren't you doing this?" But the framework of the part itself and the rules of engagement with the part really allowed us to have a structure for how we move through our rupture.
DICK: And the language helps too, because instead of saying, I don't trust you, you can say this part doesn't trust you. I trust you, but you've got to work out things with this guy.
AUBREY: Yeah. And it's really surprisingly helpful. And in your own, you've had, I'm sure, countless moments of resolution with partners and friends, family, however, do you, similarly, practice this method when you're having these reconciliation moments?
DICK: Yeah, I'm lucky to be married to an IFS therapist.
AUBREY: Oh, yeah. So you guys go right...
DICK: People, "Get out of here with that part shit," my kids are saying all the time. But yeah, no, we're talking about our parts all the time. And we haven't taken the step that you guys did, which would be to have me talk directly... Well, we're talking directly to our protectors all the time, without calling it out. But I am going to go back and tell Jean I want to talk directly to her part, in the way that Vy did to yours.
AUBREY: Yeah, it was surprisingly helpful. And actually, to allow myself the liberty to actually speak as my part. And there was a certain freedom, to be the part, to speak as my part and say, this is what my part is saying.
DICK: Yeah.
AUBREY: Don't worry, Vy, I'm not saying. This is just my part. And so, there was a comfort where she didn't take it personally. She understood the genesis of it, where it came from, why the part separated and what its purpose was. And it really allowed us to stay on the same team, and then just deal with what was in front of us.
DICK: So when you say where it came from, did it disclose where it got its job in the past?
AUBREY: Yeah, I mean, it really emerged from a particular set of ruptures, in which actions that I had taken out of my own magnanimity were then compared to the actions that I'd taken with Vy, in some way where it got twisted, in which I was doing something more for others that I wasn't doing for her. And really the genesis of my feeling, my feeling was I'm just being magnanimous, I'm just being generous, and I'm getting cut down because somehow that's hurting you. And so now, I don't trust, I don't trust you seeing me, my intentions. So the part, I know I generated that part particularly at that moment. Now, has that part showed up in other different situations? Of course, but I don't think I had the consciousness about the parts work to name it in prior relationships or name it in prior ruptures. It just really came through in this particular one as it stepped forward. I think all of our parts kind of, they form and they live within us. This is what I feel in my own body. They form and they live within us, but it really stepped forward and separated and said, I'm not going to let Aubrey trust you fully, until I trust you fully.
DICK: That's what I love about ketamine and IFS, but psychedelics in general. They seem to make what we call the manager parts go to sleep. And then you can have much more access to these other parts that ordinarily you kind of push away. And yeah, so I think that really greased the wheel for you guys.
AUBREY: Yeah. All right, so, manager parts. Manager part sounds in some ways, like the oversoul, of who you are that is the captain of all the parts. Like the essential Aubrey would be the manager part. But you said parts. So what is it exactly?
DICK: Yeah. So, it wouldn't be your essence. And we can talk about that in a second. But my belief is, it isn't so much because you said when this part was created, or something like that. It isn't so much they're created at that point. Because I believe they come into the world with us, they're all in there. And when they're not hurt, or having to protect or something, they're in these lovely roles that are very helpful to us. But then once you do get hurt, and often as a child, so if we wanted, we could work with that part and see if it's stuck in the past somewhere.
AUBREY: Like the genesis, because the accurate language would be it got activated in the rupture.
DICK: It got activated, it got forced into this extreme role of being, checking everybody out, not trusting by something that happened to you. But it wasn't that before. It got forced into that role. A lot of IFS is helping that guy trust you more, so that he doesn't have to be on guard so much.
AUBREY: Yeah. Let's go there because I can feel it. I can feel it, I can feel where it really came into form.
DICK: Okay. So where do you feel him in your body right now, around your body?
AUBREY: Somewhere in between my stomach and my heart, like in the intermediary energy center between those two places.
DICK: Okay. And as you notice him here, how do you feel toward him, especially now that you got to know him better, recently? How do you feel toward him?
AUBREY: Well, I feel in a way sad and compassionate that he's had to do what he's had to do.
DICK: That's right. So let him know that. Just see how he reacts to your compassion.
AUBREY: Yeah, buddy. I know you've had to do some work. And I appreciate that.
DICK: How's it reacting?
AUBREY: I think the acknowledgement feels good. Feels good to be seen and to know that I appreciate the difficult work that he's had to do, and the courage for what he's been offering me.
DICK: Good. So let's just stay with that for a little while. Just keep extending that appreciation to him until he really trusts that you mean it, and trusts you. We'll keep asking him about that.
AUBREY: Yeah. I can hear his voice being like, are you going to be okay? He's worried about whether or not I'm going to be able to handle reality, I'm going to be able to handle the disappointment.

DICK: That's right.
AUBREY: He's worried about me. He's like, really, are you going to be okay, man?
DICK: Yeah. So, let him know you appreciate that worry. And Aubrey, ask him how old he thinks you are. And don't think of the answer. Just wait and see what comes.
AUBREY: Four.
DICK: Yeah, so let him know you're a bit older than that now. You can handle more than you could when you were four. Just see how he reacts to that information.
AUBREY: He says, "Are you sure, buddy?" "Are you sure it's any different than it was then?"
DICK: Well, so what do you say to him?" Sometimes it helps to just have him turn around and look at you and see who you are now.
AUBREY: I think the truth is, I'm still a sensitive guy. And I still have the sensitivity of that four-year-old in me. And I also have a reservoir of power and resilience. So, he's not wrong in identifying that there's a part of me that's no different, and I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful that I have that kind of youthful boy in me. It's part of my joy. And my sensitivity is a gift. And I think the part that I would just like him to see is, is also the man who has been through a thousand psychonautic and emotional battles. And I wear the scars proud, and I've made it through everything.
DICK: So how's he reacting now?
AUBREY: He's proud of me, actually. He's like, "Look at you now. Look at you go." I think he's really seeing the fullness of the picture. It looked like he was very myopic on the four-year-old, but he hadn't seen the fullness of…
DICK: He didn't know he wasn't the only protector of that four-year-old. So let him know, you can share that load with him.
AUBREY: Yeah, I'm with you, man. I'm with you. I'm with you. We're in this together.
DICK: And there's another step we could take if you're up for it.
AUBREY: Sure.
DICK: So, ask him, if we could go to that four-year-old, and get him out of where he might be stuck in the past so he wasn't quite as sensitive as he is now, would this guy be better able to relax?
AUBREY: Yeah, I mean, I think, an acknowledgement of where he came from, and I think I can feel, I can feel if I really kind of intuitively tap into what this protector is saying is, man, it's always been like this. And he has this feeling, like, it's always been like this. And it's always going to be like this, you're always going to need me. And really, I can remember where he developed. It was a similar but different experience where my intentions, and this was regarding my father. My intentions were always grounded in love, excitement, playfulness. And so, I would sometimes, I remember certain instances of this. For example, my dad, who did his best to kind of resolve the anger that he had inside himself. But he had a lot of rage. And sometimes that would be directed at me undeservedly. In one of those instances, for example, he's playing a heated game of ping pong with one of his friends. He took competition very seriously. Even if it was ping pong in his living room. He mishits the ball, I'm kind of watching. He mishits the ball off the top of his paddle on a hard smash. So, with the mishit, the ball flies through the air, and hits the corner of the room at the top of the ceiling. I'm just playing around as a kid, like four years old, I go, "Home run!" And my dad internalized that as some way in which I was mocking him, some way in which I was embarrassing him in front of his friend. And then he came, he finished the ping pong match, and then he found me, and then just kind of unleashed his anger. And I was like, "What do you mean? I'm just being playful." Ball hit the ceiling, looked like a home run to me. But of course, I'm not saying that as a four-year-old, I'm devastated. And so, this protector came forward and was like, no, no, I'll take that. Also, I'll watch. I'll step forward and watch and be out on the lookout, it became like--
DICK: If anything out of the blue happens, never let that happen again.
AUBREY: Right. And I'll just stay subtly in between you and the people who are dangerous.
DICK: That's right. Yeah. So, go back to the protector guy, and just ask him if that's all accurate. If you got that. That's where he got his job.
AUBREY: Yeah.
DICK: And ask him if he gives us permission to go to that four-year-old and get them out of there.
AUBREY: Yeah, I mean, it's time. I buried my father on April 6, and it was, we acknowledged the darkness and we celebrated his story and the beauty of it, and I feel deeply at peace. We spent, as you mentioned, referenced, like I spent 10 days with Gafni and Shiva house and doing medicine journeys, and all of the lineage practices and it was just a beautiful experience. And it really put the whole chapter with my father in a beautiful place. That's I think, part of the reason why my part is saying no, it's time. It's time.
DICK: So, go ahead and focus on that four-year-old and his feelings, and see where you find him in your body, around your body.
AUBREY: Now it's like somewhere between my heart and my voice, in that nexus, like the upper chest in my voice and it's kind of squirming around, not trusting what I'm going to say or do.
DICK: How do you feel toward him as you notice him there?
AUBREY: It's sad. It's sad that he's feeling like that, that he doesn't trust light, and doesn't trust that people will see his goodness.
DICK: That's right. So, let him know you have compassion for him, you feel sad for him that this happened to him. And see how he reacts to your caring.
AUBREY: He just wants me to hold his hand.
DICK: So, can you do that?
AUBREY: Yeah.
DICK: So, let's just do that. Let's just hold his hand and hang with him in this loving way for a while.
AUBREY: What I see myself doing with him is looking out at the world through my eyes now, holding his hand and explaining in a way without even needing words, but explaining the world and saying like, it's not your fault.
DICK: That's right.
AUBREY: It's not your fault. This is just part of this world. And people have their own shit and their own stuff. And it's okay. It's okay to continue being who you are. In a way, now I'm saying, I'll protect you. Like grown man Aubrey, my 42 years, I got this buddy. I got this.
DICK: Does he believe you? How's he reacting?
AUBREY: Yeah, he does. Now he's kind of hugging on my leg and my hip and I got my arm around him.
DICK: That's really great.
AUBREY: He trusts me. He trusts the man that I've become.
DICK: That's fantastic. And ask him now if he does feel like you'd get everything that happened that was so bad for him. Or if there's more he needs you to feel or see or sense about it?
AUBREY: He says he's good. But he says that he's not the only one.
DICK: So, there are other parts back there?
AUBREY: Yeah, there's other parts of me that are stuck, at different ages. And he feels good. We feel we're really together. But he's pointing to, and I don't know where, but he's pointing to somewhere. And I bet if I tapped in, I could for a minute, I could see another one.
DICK: It's up to you.
AUBREY: Yeah, there's feels like at least one more that--
DICK: Then just follow where he's pointing.
AUBREY: He's pointing to 31.
DICK: Age 31?
AUBREY: Yeah. 31 was when I started my company Onnit. And there was a part of me that came out that was constantly afraid that the world was going to tear down my baby. And I was so hyper vigilant, or that part, through me was so hyper vigilant to protect me from the world that I thought wouldn't see the goodness of what I had to offer, and what I was trying to do. And in a way that part has been kind of invisible and not named as a part. But that's when it started, when things really, I started to get momentum, and I started to be successful. And then this part stepped forward and said, "I'll keep you safe. I'll never sleep. I'll be looking out at the horizon at all times. I'm on watch." The company was successful, and sold it in 2021. It was an amazing, challenging, at times, ride. And there were things that happened that were outrageous and difficult. And so, it wasn't like this part was wrong. But also, it's time. It's time for that part to come home because everything's worked out. It's worked out so well.
DICK: And he's still doing it.
AUBREY: He's still doing it. He's still out there in his encampment, with his binoculars, looking at everything and it's just, there's a sense of ease that can kind of come over. It's okay.
DICK: So how do you feel toward him as you see him that way?
AUBREY: I feel a lot of, he's older and I feel a lot of admiration for him, and real respect, because it was really a warrior part in this way. And I guess a lot of protectors have that kind of warrior archetype, but this one, the way I see him is like a soldier.
DICK: So, let's honor him for that. Just let him know you get how much he made it happen, and how much he had to look out. And see how he's reacting.
AUBREY: Yeah, he feels like a brother. Like when we're talking now in my imagination he's saying like, we've been through some shit together. We've been through some wars, we've been through some battles. He says, it's been an honor to serve you.
DICK: Wow, that's beautiful. Beautiful. But ask if he does realize your trust, he doesn't have to in the same way now.
AUBREY: Yeah, in a way, what he says is, he says, you know more wars are coming. But I can recognize when there's a time for peace. He says it's been a long shift.
DICK: He's tired, right?
AUBREY: He's tired.
DICK: He's really tired.
AUBREY: He's fucking tired. And he's ready if I--
DICK: If you need him.
AUBREY: He's ready if I need him, and he's also ready to go off duty.
DICK: Good, good. So, let's see if we can help him do that now. Maybe even lay down and sleep or whatever he wants to do.
AUBREY: Yeah, it's funny. Yeah, he just wants to go home and cuddle with his woman, and just take off all of his service uniform.
DICK: Absolutely.
AUBREY: Lay down his guns, and he wants to enter into the Eros and the rapture of life in a way. I think he just wants to experience the other side. It's funny, I heard a story and who knows if it's true or not. But I believe it was, the legend is that the Sumerians, I believe it's the ancient civilization. They had love temples, and temples like many of the mystery school temples back in ancient times. And they had a policy that when their warriors went off to war, before they would be able to come back and inhabit the village, the town, the city, the kingdom, whatever, they would need to stop at love temples to get the war fucked out of them. To like re-engage with the erotic nature and the erotic beauty of life. To rebalance the violence of war, of combat. And whether that's true or not, I think there's a beautiful parable that, and we told him that, and it's interesting that this kind of warrior part, that's what he wants. He wants to make love.
DICK: He remembers that parable.
AUBREY: Yeah, he does. He remembers that parable and his desire is to really step into the field of Eros in both the sexual and non-sexual ways, but really feel the goodness of life.
DICK: So he's good now. Is that right?
AUBREY: Yeah. He might be more than good actually. He might be really good.
DICK: So let's go back to the four-year-old then. So, just focus on him again. And ask how he's reacting to seeing the 31-year-old at peace now.
AUBREY: Yeah, he's happy. He's like, thanks for taking care of my brother.
DICK: Good, good.
AUBREY: It feels like they all, of course they do. But, just understanding how they all have their own relationships.
DICK: Yeah, internal family systems.
AUBREY: And really, the sentiment is like, thanks for taking care of my big bro.
DICK: Beautiful. So, one last thing. I'd like you to go into that scene with the boy and your father, and be with him there in the way he needed somebody. Wherever, in particular, he's stuck.
AUBREY: He wants me to, and what I'm saying to him is, is hey, man, hey, buddy, you didn't do anything wrong. That was a home run. You called it. You called the shot. It was correct. And, everything else that came after that was some kind of neuroses, pathology, projection, whatever you want to call it, coming from my father. And as me, I'm whispering, you see what this really was? This wasn't anything that he said it was. You called it right. You were right, you were playing, and you called what you saw. And that triggered this response. And I don't even know if I have the words exactly myself to explain to you what that response was. I haven't thought about it in that way. But I know that I'm telling that four-year-old like, I got this, I know exactly what this is. We can pin this down, we can find the source, we took the time. We could see where this came from, and why he needed that competition, why he felt the impulse to be, like it was possible for him to be humiliated. And if he could sit down here with Dick and do a podcast back in the day, maybe he'd understand where this stuff was coming from. And so, it's just kind of letting him know, you called it right. You didn't do anything wrong.
DICK: How's he reacted?
AUBREY: Yeah, he trusts me even more now. He really trusts, wow, you really got this, you really get it.
DICK: So, ask him if there's anything he'd like you to do for him back there. Before we take him to a good safe place out of there. Or if he just wants to leave with--
AUBREY: Yeah, it's interesting. Really, he wants me to almost replay the scene in a way where I'm actually there. And I step in, and I just go to him and I say, "Hey, buddy, you didn't do anything wrong. Let me go handle this with dad."
DICK: So do it. Go ahead and do it, in there.
AUBREY: Yeah, I mean, it starts with just like, Dad, Dad, relax, relax. Just a boy, just playing, just called it like it was. So, settle, settle. I'm very calm. Settle, like sit. Telling him, settle, settle. All right, where's this feeling coming from, Dad? What's causing this big reaction? Because this is just a boy playing and calling. So this is, something is misaligned here, Dad.
DICK: And what's it like for the boy to watch you stand up for him? With the dad?
AUBREY: He just has supreme confidence in me actually, because he realizes that I'm wiser, stronger, actually, than my father was. And so, it's like he's got, he's watching curiously, like as the scene unfolds and learning. But it's this immense confidence.
DICK: That's great.
AUBREY: Yeah. And safety. Confidence and safety like, oh shit. I got Aubrey on my team. I got the full Aubrey. I got him in his full selfness. And he's coming with all of the knowledge that he has, and all of the resilience that he's forged, and all of the strength. I got Aubrey at his best. I call that the best of myself. I've named it Dragonheart. Like, I got Dragonheart over here. He's just proud. He's proud and safe.
DICK: He's safe, yeah. So, ask if now he's ready to leave that time and place with you. And come live with you somewhere.
AUBREY: Yeah.
DICK: Just see where he'd like to go. He could come right here or a fantasy place, whatever he wants.
AUBREY: He wants to go into my leg.
DICK: Perfect.
AUBREY: Like into my right thigh.
DICK: Yeah. So, let's bring him right there. Tell me when he's there.
AUBREY: Yeah.
DICK: How's he like that?
AUBREY: He loves it. He gets to be a part of every time I dance as a part of my leg.
DICK: That's great. Yeah. Good. And let him know, he never has to go back there. And you're going to take care of him this way now. And see how that is for him now.
AUBREY: Yeah, I got you, buddy. And he's saying, perfect. Let's have some fun.
DICK: Before you do that, ask if he'd like to unload the feelings and beliefs he got back there now. Now that he's safe with you.
AUBREY: He says he doesn't necessarily know how to do that.
DICK: He doesn't need to know how.
AUBREY: He wants to but he says, "Yeah, but I don't know how." He thinks that the patterns are stuck, the grooves have been made.
DICK: Not a bit. So, he doesn't need to know how. All we need is his desire to unload it.
AUBREY: Yeah, 100%. He's all in.
DICK: Okay. So ask where he carries all that? In his body, around his body?
AUBREY: In his stomach.
DICK: And ask, what he'd like to give it all up to. Light, water, fire, wind, Earth, anything else.
AUBREY: Water.
DICK: So, take him to water or set that up how it should happen. And tell him to just let all that out of his stomach, and let the water take it away till it's all gone.
AUBREY: Yeah, he's purging in a pool that's fed by a waterfall and that goes downstream.
DICK: Tell him to just keep going until it's all out of him. No need to carry any of that anymore.
AUBREY: Yeah, I mean it's an intense purge. It's going all the way. Reminds me of one of those Ayahuasca purges where you just keep going until you just taste the different types of bile.
DICK: Yeah, tell him to just keep going. No rush.
AUBREY: Yeah. Yeah, he did it.
DICK: How does he feel without all that?
AUBREY: Restored, whole.
DICK: That's great.
AUBREY: It's funny I can actually see myself. Somehow, my vision of him was kind of obscured. It was actually hard to see him as me. And now, I can see my young face, my actual young smiling self.
DICK: That's great, that's really great.
AUBREY: Yeah, it's interesting how, until he did that, I couldn't see the truth of who he was.
DICK: That's right. Tell him if he wants to now, he can invite qualities into his body and you can see what comes into him now.
AUBREY: Yeah, his crown chakra is opening up. There's a pouring in of light and information and energy. And I think the thing that it's showing him, and the qualities that it's calling forth and evoking and in training is equality of faith. It's equality of faith in the divine. That the Divine is always there, always kind of guiding. He can rest in a deeper faith that there's a higher power.
DICK: Beautiful. Good. So before we stop, let's bring in that guy who didn't trust your wife to see this four-year-old now, and just see how he reacts.
AUBREY: He's saying, "Well, if this little whippersnapper can do it, I can certainly do it too."
DICK: That's right, that's true.
AUBREY: He's like, I'll follow your lead as well. I'll open up, I'll open up to trust in the divine, open up to the higher power, and just a deeper trust. A trust that extends even beyond this lifetime, and trust of the eternal continuity of consciousness.
DICK: Fantastic. Ask him if there's anything he needs to unload to be able to do that, that he carries in his body, around his body.
AUBREY: He has anger, and he has a desire to, I almost see like a snake coming out of his mouth, like a desire to attack with venom.
DICK: Yeah. What does he want to do with the snake as it comes out?
AUBREY: The snake, he doesn't have full, it’s like he has a tenuous control over the snake. And the snake wants to attack the people who he's felt hurt by. But he doesn't want that to happen. But the snake's out and it's looking and it's ready to strike, and it's bending towards it, and he's kind of bending it. So it feels like we need a place for the snake to unload its venom safely that doesn't hurt anybody else.
DICK: Perfect. So let's find that place.
AUBREY: It's interesting, what I see is, I don't know if this is right. But, what I see is, I see another beast, almost like a king snake anaconda that wants to eat this snake. But I'm not letting it happen because I'm not sure if that's what I want. I'm not sure if I want the snake to be eaten. I think maybe, like moving that beast, that other snake that wants to eat it aside, which is I think this desire to just kill and crush my anger. But I feel like it's not the right move.
DICK: Okay, so let's see what the beast is. Just ask what it is.
AUBREY: The beast is the one that wants to protect everyone around me from the venom of the snake. Yeah, it wants to make sure that the snake doesn't hurt anybody unnecessarily.
DICK: Yeah. So let it know, we can help the snake change. It doesn't have to be eaten. And see if it's okay with that.
AUBREY: It feels like it's a crocodile right now. It's kind of been an amorphous beast, but it's a little bit stubborn. And it says a snake is a snake, and I eat snakes. And that's what I do.
DICK: Okay, but would it make an exception? Just watch. It can just check it out.
AUBREY: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I just witnessed a little bit of a battle. So, here's what happened in my mind. I told the giant alligator, I was like, look, we got another plan for the snake. And the alligator started to move away, crocodile, whatever. Started to move away and the snake bit at it as it was kind of moving away. The snake sees this crocodile is a threat, bit at it, and then the crocodile wheels around, and grabs it in its jaws and it's just letting it know, like, I can eat you but on request of--
DICK: It's going to honor our request.
AUBREY: Aubrey is going to honor the request, and he's going to let him go.
DICK: We appreciate that.
AUBREY: Yeah. And then the snake is kind of humbled, pacified a little bit. A little bit wounded, actually, and is no longer looking to strike anybody. It's been humbled and pacified in a way. But now I feel like I need to help the snake.
DICK: Yeah, let's do that.
AUBREY: I see myself, we're in a forest setting. So I'm like making a poultice of herbs. And where the crocodile had bit it, I'm wrapping the poultice of herbs around the wounds of the snake with, I don't know, gauze or something. Packing in the healing herbs, and it's working. It's healing the snake. The snake is now actually, not coming out of my mouth. It's now part of the forest. It's almost like, yeah, it's now cruising around no longer connected to inside my mouth.
DICK: Does it still carry the venom? Does it want to unload venom?
AUBREY: No, it has the venom. But it's not active, it's not desiring to strike. It just wants to kind of cruise and be a snake.
DICK: Okay, great. Great. So we're going to backtrack. So, the snake can be a snake. Let's go back to the guy whose mouth it came out of. How's he doing without it?
AUBREY: Good. I mean, he's not purging, but he's spitting a bit. Just getting the taste of the snake and the venom out of his mouth. And I actually have my medicine sister, Huaira, who’s, I love her so much. She's incredible. She's from Ecuador, and she has this spray, that's kind of a solution of alcohol and this particular herb. And it makes your mouth really tingle. And I love it. I can see myself spraying in my mouth to get the taste out. Yeah, he's happy that that's out. It's interesting. It was almost like another protector nested within a protector.
DICK: That is what happened. That is what it is. Yeah. You find that once in a while. And then before we stop, check with the crocodile and see if he's okay with all this.
AUBREY: Yeah, the crocodile's okay. He's close by. I watched the destructiveness of my father's anger, and there was only a few times where I saw that come out of myself. And I do not want that to happen.
DICK: We got that, and the crocodile kept it contained. So we can appreciate him for that.
AUBREY: Yeah. And he's happy to just cruise around, but he's in the ecosystem. And actually, truth be told, I want him in the ecosystem.
DICK: Yeah, that's great. So, does that feel complete? Or is there anything--
AUBREY: It does. Yeah, it feels complete. And actually, I'm grateful to know the snake and I'm grateful to know the crocodile, because now they're externalized and separate there, and I can see when the snake moves up through my mouth. And then I can see the crocodile. And I can see this whole scene--
DICK: The battle.
AUBREY: I can see alright, this is what's going to happen, yeah. And because there was no place that the snake, the snake naturally, if we're just looking at biology and zoology, a snake doesn't unload its venom, except in some person or animal. I was trying to think of unloading it in the tree and the snake was like, "What are you talking about? It's not what we do. We don't bite trees. Don't be crazy. We bite fucking flesh." Yeah, it's cool. The snake's being the snake, the crocodile's being the crocodile. And my protector is, yeah, it's cool to be, the thing is my protector is as big as me. And it's the same age, this is a week ago. So, it just kind of overlays completely into me. Just kind of full, doesn't feel like it lives anywhere. It just actually feels like an integrated full body size on full body size.
DICK: Yeah. That's what happened. You integrated a bunch of these guys who were sort of out on their own. Really cool.
AUBREY: Really cool. I know we did some of this last time. And I was like, “I don't know if I got…” But it's so powerful to get in here. I mean, thinking about therapy in general, and I've been to a variety of different therapy. Very few things, I mean, I'm just being kind to the field. Truly nothing has gotten to this level of depth and this level of service to my psyche this quickly.
DICK: Thank you.
AUBREY: I mean, it's astounding, really.
DICK: Yeah. And you're really good at it. This is one of the more powerful sessions I've been a part of.
AUBREY: It's funny, how I visualize things so well.
DICK: Let me speak to that for a second. Because for me, you weren't imagining any of it. It's not like you're making it up. You are entering this other world where they all live.
AUBREY: Yeah, no, that's what it felt like.
DICK: It's very real. And psychedelics take you to the same place a lot of the time, and what you do in there has a big, big impact on this world.
AUBREY: Yeah. So, when you're working with other people in this, is there sometimes that their ability to enter this, Ram Dass called them locas, planes of consciousness, dimensional realities, wherever it is, in our psychic kind of field, is that where sometimes the difficulty is, is people have trouble kind of entering into the field?
DICK: Yeah, they have trouble because they have manager parts that don't trust, it's safe to do that. So, we have to work with those parts and get permission. But once what's called the ego, pejoratively in most spiritual things, once the managers give permission, the door opens and people just enter the way you did. And like I said, it's all quite real.
AUBREY: Yeah, that's the thing. It's like, you say imagination, but in a way that was a euphemism because I knew what it was. I knew that it was real. I think sometimes we can be shy about claiming things like this.
DICK: Believe me, it's been a challenge for almost 40 years, to come out and say, no, it's not a metaphor. Yeah.

AUBREY: So, one of the things that I haven't really, I understand the protector, and I'm starting to understand the manager parts. There's other aspects, there's the exile aspect--
DICK: Which was a four-year-old.
AUBREY: Okay, so that's the four-year-old. So the exile is those younger versions--
DICK: Younger, more sensitive, more vulnerable that is stuck in. My father was very much like yours. So I was doing some work along with you. So, they're stuck in those kinds of scenes. Because he would, out of the blue, just be furious at me at that age. To this day, if my wife ever starts to get angry like that out of the blue, it's just, yeah.
AUBREY: Yeah, it's like the deepest desire, and ultimately, with the reconciliation, the deepest desire is that the default assumption is that I'm coming from a good place. And that my intentions were actually good, beautiful, true. I was in the field of value. And let the exception be, if I was being a dick.
DICK: That's right.
AUBREY: But let's lay down the assumption that, actually, I'm being good. And in that assumption, it can really soften all of this. And if my father had that, "Aubrey, he's a good kid. So I'm going to assume that what's coming from him is coming from goodness, rather than some kind of vindictive urge, or some desire to harm or some disrespect." And I think that's ultimately what I want to establish as a field between everybody in my intimate circle. Look, let's all just assume--
DICK: Presumption of goodness.
AUBREY: Presumption of goodness.
DICK: The other thing I want to point out, because we haven't really talked about this yet, but it's really the centerpiece of IFs, is what I call the self with a capital S. And as I got your parts to relax back and open space, you knew what to do with them. I kind of guided a few things, but you basically did it. And that's what I find, that this essence of people can't be damaged, is in everybody just beneath the surface of the parts. When it's released, it knows how to heal. Just know how to do it right.
AUBREY: Yeah. You could say almost a density of selfness, if you want to use some, like trying to measure it, which is kind of, it's beyond actual measurement. But there's a way in which, especially in certain medicine journeys, I can feel almost a greater sense of selfness kind of coming in. And it's interesting, because I think we often think of our self is just ourself. But actually, there's the hollow version of ourselves, where there's still aspects and still structure. But there's a way that selfness can pour through into your body and fill you up.
DICK: That's right.
AUBREY: And when that happens, that's when you're absolutely at your best, your most magnetic, your most humorous, your most joyful. There's a whole other expression when you're really full of your selfness.
DICK: And that's what I'll be talking about this afternoon, because psychedelics has, it's somehow like put these magic parts to sleep. And that releases what you're talking about. So, you find yourself with a huge amount of those qualities. And then that's a big invitation for all these exiled parts to come in and get help.
AUBREY: Yeah, it's like, the selfness is the real father in a way, and the manager parts pretend to be the father, pretend to be dad, internally dad, and be like, I know what to do everybody. And then the real father comes in and says--
DICK: "I've got this."
AUBREY: "I have got this." I know you might be playing daddy over here, but I'm Father, like capital F father. I fucking got this.
DICK: In family therapy, we would call those parentified children.
AUBREY: Parentified children.
DICK: The kids in the family who think they've got to run things, because the parents had abdicated or something had happened. But they're young, these manager parts who act so grown up are really young and scared. And so once the grownup comes in, they feel a lot of relief. "Oh, my God, there is somebody in there." And we had to have that initial protector, really good to know you, and see, no, I don't have to protect this four-year-old alone. Because, Aubrey's there.
AUBREY: Yeah. So often I think we have one of these manager parts who's really quite young. And they're driving the car, and then yourself, whose is, they're pretending that yourself as a child, and the self is in the backseat. The manager dad is like, stay quiet back there, here's some fucking sugar, I got this. And then every once in a while, the self wakes up, and like, what are you doing driving?
DICK: Why are you driving? You're six years old.
AUBREY: Do you know who I am? I've been driving these ships for millennia. Lifetime after lifetime. I got this. Step aside.
DICK: Yeah, so one of the goals of IFS we achieved with a bunch of your parts, which is to help them transform out of their extreme roles. So, they can be who they're more designed to be. But the second goal is what we're talking about now. Having the parts come to trust self as the leader, because they didn't trust you. You couldn't protect when you were four years old. Then this protector comes in and says, "I got this, I'm going to make sure you never get hurt again." And doesn't know that you grow up. And so that's what we were updating.
AUBREY: Yeah, what's been interesting in the psychedelic space is, I've felt my body kind of really open for more selfness to come in. It's kind of like upgrades, and it's interesting because it's not like a new self comes in. It's not like a possession or like some entity is entering me. No, it's just more me. And as more me comes in, it clarifies my natural tendencies and who I really am. What Marc Gafni would call my unique self. It just expands and intensifies the gravity of that. When I feel that happening, it's like everything that I'm looking out in the world, is like, I got this.
DICK: That's right.
AUBREY: There's just amazing confidence that comes when the self is really present and full.
DICK: Well, and I have what I call the eight C's of self. And you mentioned two of them just now, confidence and clarity are characteristics of self. As well as calm, curiosity, compassion, creativity, courage, and connectedness. And as I found self showing up in people, I just started to, “how does it show up? What are the qualities?”
AUBREY: Creativity is an interesting one. Because I did notice this correlation between when I'm in the fullness of myself, I am hella creative. Dangerously creative. I'm coming up with ideas, like, that is a fucking good idea. There's some interesting, and it's really beautiful to actually recognize that that's part of it. And I think, if I was going to understand why that is, I think the self while it is yourself and unique, it's also connected to the field, and can source creativity from a larger bed, a larger pool.
DICK: Yeah, for me, what we call self, quantum physics has photons as both particles and waves. So there's the wave state of self, which is the numinous, non-dual. And often in psychedelics, you enter that place where you're not connected to your body, you're just in the field. And then you particlize, you come into your body, that's the same god or whatever you want to call it who is in your body, that you just experienced a lot of. But there is that connection. And, yours was a good illustration of how as these parts unburden, they feel more spiritual energy. Because at the end, there were two of your parts that said, there's the spiritual connection now. Remember that?
AUBREY: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, the four-year-old wanted the light to come through and then instructed, and then my older part was like, I can learn from you. I can learn from you. They were pointing to that as the desired resolution, but they didn't say you asked, it's interesting. You asked what characteristics or qualities would you like to add? And the quality was, this pouring in, and really, I can see that now, as we've been talking. It was a pouring in of selfness. And the self as connected to the divine as well.
DICK: That's exactly right.
AUBREY: So, it was just pouring in. What do I want? I want more self. Let's go, maximum.
DICK: Yeah, it's a great description of it.
AUBREY: Yeah, I mean, what a gift. And as we keep talking, there's like little subtle things, like the parentification of the child, all of these little gems. I'm just curious, I just want to open the space, if there's anything that's in your mind that you think might be cool to explore, and cool to offer for the listeners or for me.
DICK: Well, I suspect that some of your listeners were working along with you. And once you do connect with all these parts, it's great in the session, but it may not stick unless you follow up. So, to you and your listeners, I encourage you every day, for at least a month, to check in with all these. I think we met five parts today. Some people like making a map, drawing them or somehow keeping track of them, journaling, listening to this podcast again so that they don't feel neglected or that they don't feel like you forget about them. And then there'll come a time where they trust that you're not going to, and then it'll all stick. So, that would be my homework.
AUBREY: So, I'm imagining, so we got the four-year-old, we got the snake, we got the crocodile, we got my 31-year-old soldier, and we got my 42-year-old, one-week-old protector that popped out last week before this podcast. I have a very special place that one of my teachers, Maestro Hamilton Souther. He encouraged me to make what he called a medicine world, which is a place in my own personal astral consciousness, and it was actually the place that the four-year-old went to purge. Because when I go there, I wake up in a cave, and I'm on almost like an altar bed in the cave, and there's a little bit of water trickling down where there's an opening in the cave. I go down, and then there's a rose garden and a winding path through the rose garden. And I go to the right, and there's a big waterfall that comes down, and then there's a stream, and then there's woods that go there. I can keep playing and go deep, follow that and I follow it off to like a desert, eventually. Or I cross the stream, and then there's a cave where I can meet allies and different... So there's a whole world that I built. And it's my very special world. And I'm wondering if letting them free in that world to have their own kind of little existence is an appropriate kind of move. It feels like a good idea. Like they're all there in my contained little world, and they get to have their experience. The soldier gets to make love, the boy gets to go play around in the waterfall. The snake gets to be a snake in the forest. And the crocodile gets to move through, and eat fish in the stream. It feels kind of like a cool place to just check in with everybody there, rather than, I know we had them in my leg. And that felt cool too. It feels good to have them in my body. But also feels good to me to have them in this little playground.
DICK: They can be in more than one place. But you want to make sure they want that. So I don't know if we have time now, but check with them and see if that would be good for them, or if they'd like to stay where they are.
AUBREY: Yeah, everybody but the one-week-old. The full name wants to just be in me, wants to just actually be with me, with me as I walk, as I talk. It wants actual full integration into my selfness. It wants to actually dissolve into my selfness, completely. The other guys kind of want to, at least for now, they want to kind of have lived their little life and live it in a different way, play a different role, and have fun.
DICK: That's great.
AUBREY: How cool, how cool. And it's cool for me to actually weave some old teachings in this old place. I remember, I have a story and I'm telling the story in the book that I'm writing, "Psychonaut". I had this wild Ayahuasca experience. And in this wild Ayahuasca experience, it's a very long story. And I won't tell the full story. But basically, I ended up in the belief that a demon had taken my heart which was false, actually. There was only my fear that that was possible. And ultimately, divine guidance came through and assured me that nobody can take your heart, son. It's you and nobody can actually touch it because it's God. And God's not going to take God, like it is just is. It can't, it's not possible, right? So it's my Atman, it's the center of my centers.
DICK: It's what I call yourself with a capital S.
AUBREY: Yes, yes. So it couldn't happen. But I got tricked by these forces, external or internal, but I got tricked by these forces. The demon who I called the world crusher, he tricked me and said, "Here, I'll give you your heart back." And he gave me a red stone. And the red stone, I was so eager to get my heart back, I grabbed it and I tried to put it in but it was not my heart. It was a false heart. And again in the Rosicrucian kind of model, this was like the Luciferian action. Lucifer being the light bringer but the bringer of light as if you needed light. It was a false light. It was like, here's this false light, denying my internal light. So then I was stuck with this false light that was actually incredibly destructive. It was almost like the ring of Sauron. And I was like, fuck, what do I do with this? And I remember my first impulse was, well, I don't want this. Let me put it in my world. Then I put it in my world and my world started to decay and get destroyed. It almost turned like the stranger things upside down where I was, shit, I can't put it there. This place is too special. So I ended up dissolving it back into the entirety of the cosmos, and just releasing it. But this place is like, it's been with me in so many of my journeys that it's been a really powerful tool for me to actually guide journeys. I'll often step into there. And as I said, there's a cave. Because I'm very curious and part of my psychonautic journey has been guided by, of course, the healing but also curiosity. And so, I'll go into the other cave in there, where I'll meet allies or entities or guides that'll speak to me in the medicine. And so, yeah, I mean, I just kind of want to offer that from my own experience. It has been really helpful to have, and really build out this world and go see and go touch the roses and feel the walls of my cave, and then go in the water and make this more and more real. And use this as a tool in my journeys as well. And it's interesting to see now that this is a place where my parts are playing.
DICK: They can populate. It's great.
AUBREY: Yeah, that's really cool. Now, when you go into your own medicine journeys, how often do you encounter your own parts? With your breadth of knowledge, and your kind of, you and your wife are deep in this. So when you go in, how often do you interact with your own parts in the psychedelic space?
DICK: It depends. So mostly, I've done ketamine. On medium dose ketamine, I totally leave my body and I'm in the non-dual, in a kind of blissful place. But then when I come back, I feel what you're talking about, the self comes back into the body. And then my parts start to come forward. Unlike you, I don't see a lot. I do it all with the lights off. But I can sense them, I hear their voices. So yeah, then I have been able to do a lot of personal work that way.
AUBREY: Yeah. Are there any places that are stubborn?
DICK: In me?
AUBREY: In you. Yeah.
DICK: Yeah, I just did a podcast with a woman named Tsultrim Allione, do you know?
AUBREY: No, I'm not familiar.
DICK: "Feeding Your Demons" is a book she wrote, Lama. And she asked, something I wanted to work with. So, I have a little guy, who if my wife, like I said, comes at me out of the blue, comes at me is not really what it's like. I mean, what she's doing, but it feels that way. So, this little guy jumps out, and really starts to defend. So, I asked her to help me with that. And we traded sessions. Yeah, that's something, because I've done a lot of work, but that guy still does that automatic thing. And only with my wife. Never anybody else. And so, I think it was helpful.
AUBREY: Where in the sessions, have you found also, have you come up against because this was very fluid and very effective. Everything kind of moved real smooth in this. Where do you find that there's like sticky points in your clients without obviously telling people's personal stories, and naming them but just as kind of like a general meta category, or even personal experiences without naming names of, this was a tough one. This was a puzzle that really required my best to solve this puzzle.
DICK: So there are clients who had horrible histories. And so, they have lots of what I call exiles. And they have lots of protectors, who swore they would never go back to those places again, and they never wanted to feel any of that again. So, the prospect, like I asked the original guy, do we have permission to go to that four-year-old? Many clients would say, hell no, I never want to go there. So then I have to go through a series of discussions with that protector, going over all the fears he would have about letting you go to that point. And there's a common set of fears. A lot of times, the fear of being overwhelmed again, or you can't do anything about it, what's the point? I don't want to feel any of that again, or that he'd be judged by me or somebody if you open that door. So, we've gotten good at addressing each of those fears. But we also learned the hard way not to try and bypass those protectors, because they'll punish the client after, what we call backlash. So, we don't go. Like if your protector had insisted we not go, we wouldn't go to the four-year-old. And that's some of my concern about psychedelics, because like I said, these protectors go offline, then you access all this stuff, then they come back and what the hell happened here? And then there's backlash. So to counter that, in the prep sessions, we're soliciting the protectors, like do you have any fear about taking this journey? And we get into some of those fears, and we're addressing all those fears, and we don't have them take the medicine until the protectors give permission. So that's the biggest place where you get stuck.
AUBREY: Yeah, yeah. So somebody's now, obviously, this, going through the personal, actually, it helps people understand the transpersonal. And hopefully, people as the first time we did the podcast there's an amazing response. So hopefully, people were able to do some work along with me and understand the process along with me. But if someone feels, man, I really need some support. So I know that you have a network of IFS kind of facilitators. What do you call yourself first of all, therapists?
DICK: Yeah, although there are IFS practitioners too. But yeah, on our website, there's a directory. It's pretty extensive.
AUBREY: So you could go through the directory, find someone in your area.
DICK: And there are people who are certified, that we certify that they've gone through a certain number of steps. So, we can at least sort of say that they've done those things.
AUBREY: Yeah. Alright, so what's the URL to the website?
DICK: It's ifs-institute.com.
AUBREY: Okay. And also, presumably, if somebody wanted to go through the certifications, is there any pre-qualification? Do you have to have a certain level of education? Do you have to be a therapist, a psychiatrist, psychologist? What is the pre-certification to actually get certified in this?
DICK: Yeah, there was a period where we didn't have a lot of that. And there were a lot of coaches, as well as therapists, and sometimes teachers and so on. But we've shifted now to where the main training are mainly for therapists. And we're offering another training program for the other people. The tricky thing is having people who aren't therapists go to these exiles with clients. And so, the other training is going to not have that piece of it.
AUBREY: So there's different tracks. And a therapist is designated as someone who, like, what's the level of schooling that's required to be a therapist?
DICK: Just a master's degree.
AUBREY: A master's in psychology or?
DICK: Counseling, psychology, internal family therapy, social work, so on and so on.
AUBREY: So let's say you've reached the level of psychiatrist, which is an MD, ability to prescribe. What's your overall feeling about the field of these psychiatric drugs that are often prescribed? What's your kind of sense? So if you're talking psychiatrist to psychiatrist, all right, what's your guidance for the field about, if you're working, because even kids are getting on so many psychiatric medications that have so much complexity to what they're doing, and kind of the other effects that these psychiatric medications are having?
DICK: I'm not anti-medication, per se. I'm “anti-medication” as the answer. And that's been the problem with psychiatry, that there are conditions where if, for example, you're in a manic episode, or you're hallucinating or something like that, you need to chill. Your system needs to calm down and medication can do that. And the problem though, is it'll tend to suppress all the parts that were giving you those symptoms. And you can live your life, but it's a much more hollow life. So, my thing is, okay, let's show the system until we now can do some IFS kind of parts work, and heal the parts that were causing the symptoms. And maybe the medication can keep doing it during that period, and sometimes that can take a while. But it's not the long term answer.
AUBREY: Right. And have you seen that play out where there has been people who've been on a history of psychiatric medication, and then they go into the IFS therapy--
DICK: Yeah, it's harder.
AUBREY: And they're like, alright, maybe I don't need this anymore. You saying it's harder.
DICK: It's harder if they have a long history of being on those drugs, because it's harder for them to access self. That's just been my experience.
AUBREY: Yeah, it's almost like there's the deadening of all of the activity also limits the capacity for the self-healing to pour through.
DICK: Yeah. I mean, my experience isn't that extensive with that population, but that's been my experience.
AUBREY: Yeah. Well, this has been such a gift.
DICK: Same for me.
AUBREY: Such a gift. And I'm so glad that we got to do this in person.

DICK: Same here, I feel very connected.
AUBREY: Yeah, likewise, likewise. So, count me as an ally. We gave the website, and also the book that's recent. And I'm sure the book is being wildly, popularly received.
DICK: It's doing pretty well.
AUBREY: I'm sure it is. I'm sure it is. Thanks so much, Dick.
DICK: Thank you, Aubrey.
AUBREY: Yeah, it's been a real pleasure. And thanks, everybody, for going on this ride, and just being with me. Also, I just want to honor, I've always been rewarded for my vulnerability. It's really meaningful. it's meaningful to know that the world at large, is, it's safe to be vulnerable. It really is safe. And for anybody who feels oh, it's not safe to be vulnerable, I'm doing it in front of hundreds of thousands of people, all the fucking time. And the overwhelming response is, thank you.
DICK: Yeah, that's true. You're such a great model. For a strong man, who can be soft and strong.
AUBREY: Yeah, I think the strength actually opens up the ability for the tenderness, just like that's what actually got my parts to really relax, is when I showed up in the fullness of myself, they're like, oh, man, I got Aubrey here, I'm good. So, yeah, it's beautiful to be able to have that fierceness and the tenderness.
DICK: You're a wonderful model for many men.
AUBREY: Well, thank you, I appreciate that. Well, thank you, Dick. This has been a real pleasure. And thank you, everybody, for tuning in. We love you, and we'll see you next week.