What if you were surrounded by people you truly trust—people you would gladly share a journal of your most intimate thoughts? There is hardly anything more powerful than to be witnessed in radical truth, with radical acceptance. This is how a strong community functions. Everyone is encouraged to be their most authentic selves and live the sovereign life of their dreams with the full support of their peers. Fit For Service has accomplished this feat to such a degree that some outside forces have attacked it out of fear. “It must be a cult!” they exclaim. When actually, Fit For Service is the Anti-Cult. It is a remedy to the relentless conditioning of our culture that tells us that we have to conform to a set of ideals and standards to be “a success” or “a contributing member of society”. Just look where the cult of our culture is getting us. We are more sick, more sad, and way more in fear than ever in my 40 years on this planet.

AUBREY: Family, here we are. This is our fourth year running our fit for service program and one of the missions that we had from the drop was to figure out all of the tools and all of the techniques to actually form a really tight knit community and then completely open source all that because of course, not everybody can be in Fit For Service. So we gotta make this widespread and share everything that we've learned in all the years. And this is our opportunity to do our best to do that. And what's interesting is that we set the goal to teach people, allow them to become fit for service, physically, mentally, emotionally, financially, spiritually, romantically. But we wanted to create a community, a place where people could come together and feel like they were loved and seen and can meet people. And we did such a fucking job of it, but now everybody thinks we have a fucking cult and it's crazy. It's like bonkers when I hear it, cause it's like, it's a fucking coaching program. What are y'all talking about? But nonetheless, I think something about people really loving each other and loving this program. It just equates to people like, must be a cult, but I think it's actually, probably the best compliment that we could get. Because cult comes from the Latin cultus, which is to worship, but the kind of reverence and the love that people have for the Fit For Service program, whether they sign up for one summit or they sign up for two summits or they sign up for three summits, we have a couple of people who've signed up for more.

CAITLYN: There's people that have been in for three straight years. 

AUBREY: People who've been in from the start, continually signing up to each different summit. But I think the feeling that people get when they're around somebody who loves a group of people, it freaks them out because of all of the examples that they've seen in the world. But I think it's like, when I really take a step back, I'm like, “wow. I think that probably means we're fucking doing our job for sure.” 

ERICK: That's a sign that we're doing something right. And I've been thinking about this a lot because as one of the coaches, we get this question pretty often in the Instagram lives that we do, where someone will ask, what do I say to this family member, this friend who's asking me if I'm in a cult. And there are so many different threads that we can go down. But the first thing that I often offer is what's the root word of culture? It's a cult. And fundamentally what a cult or what is being accused is that there's essentially a collective story. That's not like the story that I have and people behave in a way that I don't behave that can either scare me. It fundamentally is fear and there's some interesting things there, but there are people who are not a part of our culture who would look at our culture. And if our culture was brand new and it was coming up on the scene, it would get the same accusation. 

AUBREY: And when you say our culture, you mean like the American popular culture?

ERICK: Right. Like modern Western Civ. 

AUBREY: Right. Like if they saw everybody like looking at this strange device in their hands all the time and obsessed with it and scrolling through and like, wow, they have a fucking power object in this cult and everybody's obsessed with it and they're like tied to it constantly and they're on it like seven hours a day. This cult is strong. No, it's an iPhone, bitch, fucking relax. 

ERICK: And the God that we worship is this line of progress. Like if you actually think about what the stock market is. And like how every company is legally bound to have to make more, we're obsessed with this shape, that is this line that when you really think about it for a moment, like these people are insane, they think that you can grow infinitely anything on a finite planet, and so. But I want to open it up to the other two coaches because I could talk about this for the entire part.

CAITLYN: I think part of that too is our culture, largely it's a bunch of individuals with tunnel vision and you only see people really gather for festivals or concerts and there's no cohesion there. There's not actually a sense of familiarity amongst the people that are gathering where they know each other and they can come up and give each other a hug and they can call each other by name. And when you do see people gather outside of that, it's largely like civil unrest, protest or something where there's a cause.

AUBREY: But even that doesn't have the familiarity. It just has the gathering. 

CAITLYN: Exactly. 

AUBREY: It's either for inebriation or rage. People gather. 

CAITLYN: Yeah. And we're familiar with a culture of individuals, who aren't looking at each other and aren't comfortable. When you get even in an elevator, everybody protects themselves by kind of going into their own space, avoiding eye contact, saying polite phrases that don't really have any depth and answering accordingly, how are you doing fine? We don't live in a culture where we are building true bonds and looking at each other and being in intimacy with each other. So it's disruptive when you see a large group get together and be intimate with each other and celebrate and worship the divine within. 

KYLE: I think, yeah. It’s exactly that, hitting the nail on the head. And I think I'm just picturing myself ripping one in an elevator for some reason. I like to go against the grain. So I'm just going to let this out now and act like nothing's happening. 

CAITLYN: And then nobody talks about it, right? 

KYLE: Exactly. No one would ask that though. If I do that, no one's going to say shit, especially to me. And maybe they should, right? That'd be a great conversation. 

AUBREY: But that reminds me of, just to go on this tangent, that one time that I ripped a fart on an airplane and it was horrible. And I was just reading a book and I was like, I'm just gonna keep it calm here, just keep reading. And this guy in the row in front of me, he's probably like 55 or whatever, older man, Like he had a hard day being a salesman or something, selling tires. And he just gets up, he stands up and he goes, “Oh, Oh, Oh, Oh, Oh!” And I'm like, just reading my book and he's just looking around for the culprit. I mean, he fucking lost it. It was like the last straw. It was like the last final offense that he'd received that day. He might have gone like, what was that movie, Falling Down? 

KYLE: Falling Down, Michael Douglas. 

AUBREY: He might have went full Michael Douglas. If I caused harm to anybody, I'm sorry. 

KYLE: He'd stab you with a plastic fork.

AUBREY: He's like, Oh! Oh! He was like ringing his call button. Oh! Justice must be served! 

KYLE: Well, I think the point that I was going to make outside of farting on an elevator is that some of this has to do with what Jordan Peterson was talking about with the analogy of the lobsters or the crabs in a bucket. It's really hard, like if you're a male or a female in a marriage and you're both hefty, but one of them doesn't want to lose weight and the other one does, that can be one of the hardest things because effectively the crabs are all keeping and preventing any crab from getting out of the bucket or lobster, whatever you want to use. And I think more specifically, when we get locked into the merry go round or the rat wheel of going through the motions every single day in a job that we don't like, and going through the motions of a relationship, pretending everything's cool. And we really haven't had that spark since the beginning in the honeymoon phase. And you live for the weekend, and the weekend is numbing. When you're on that wheel, and all of us have experienced this, I mean, all every one of us has, and have jumped off that fucking thing. That's why we can see it clearly now. But for a lot of people that are still there. When you watch a video and you see somebody dancing freely, initially, you might be like, “wow, what the fuck is that?” And then the second that gets washed out with, “oh, that's weird. What are these guys doing? They're doing something different. That's weird.” And I'm not saying I'm a great dancer or a bad dancer or anything in between. Like there's no judgment on the way that I dance, but all of you've seen me dance when I'm in the fucking moment and I don't give a shit how I look. It's feminine. It's whatever, it doesn't matter. It's being danced through me. To look at that from the outside, if you've never moved your body in a way like that, if you are uptight from all of the should haves and should be from society, from your parents, from your teachers, and you've never broken through that. That's scary to a lot of people. And the easy thing to do is to say, “damn, my daughter's being brainwashed” or “damn, my husband's being brainwashed” or whatever the thing is, or look at all these idiots following this cult leader. That becomes so much easier than the reflection of, “holy shit! I want to do that” or “holy shit! Why can't I move my body that way? Why is it so hard for me to give a real hug?” Everyone, we all know this, like there's some people you hug, some of them new members, first day and then by the end of it, it's different. But that kind of half side hug where it's like, Oh yeah, nice to meet you. And you get one shoulder and then there's that genuine, like we are outside of sexual relations, going to get as close as we possibly fucking can to each other and hold each other and merge for a moment in each other's energy fields and really open that up and feel into that. And that's the genuine sweet spot of what a hug should be. But a lot of people have never experienced that in their entire lives. 

AUBREY: This idea that if you see something that you really want. You have really two choices. One, you can say like, “fuck, I want that. I really do want that. And I'm going to figure out how to get that.” Or two, you can actually denigrate that thing. You can push that thing into a box or a category where there's no possible way that it actually exists. Like it won't work. It can't happen. This isn't real. This is a cult. They're on drugs, blah, blah, blah, whatever else. And that way you can discard it from your idea of what's possible. So you don't judge yourself for not being able to do that thing, whether it's dancing or feeling like you're seen or feeling like you can share your feelings openly, whatever that is. If you really are faced with a choice, it's either like, all right, I'll do the work necessary so that I can be that free and I can feel that thing, or you just lob insults and put that thing in a box and then you never have to worry about it again because you've already said like, “all right, that's not real. That's bullshit.” And that could be a relationship structure. That could be these experiences that we're having a community. It could be actually I think a lot of people have done this with psychedelic medicine, like, oh, that's just drugs. Well, that's obviously, there's been so much clinical research now that it's harder to do that. But back 10 years ago when I was talking about it, it was all that same thing. Like, he's just a druggie. 

KYLE: Yeah. My mother in law calls it like you two go down to the Amazon and work with witch doctors, demons in the room. You don't realize.

AUBREY: So those are the choices you have. And it is that part of fear and worry. Like I really do want that. I want that healing or I want that experience, but fuck, I don't know. I don't have the courage to go actually do it. So let me just get it out of my field of possibilities. 

CAITLYN: I think there's another deeper aspect too is when you've invested in an agreement to operate a certain way, function a certain way, and you've been living your whole life in this agreement with a sacrifice, so you are basically agreeing to make yourself uncomfortable and numb out the needs of your body and the natural impulses of your body to make the collective of more comfortable. You have now lived your entire life this way. And when you realize that there's a possibility of living another way, there's almost like this undercurrent of grief. For all of the years I have given up my constant invitation and opportunity to be in full expression of myself. And that could be crying too. That's another thing that we share with each other in this community that you stifle it everywhere because in the interesting paradox, we think of ourselves as individuals. We operate individually, but we're actually making the sacrifice of our essential needs to make the collective more comfortable around us. So there's this interesting subterranean depth that's grief. And you almost have to double down on how you've been living to cope with that on some level. I think that's an aspect for a lot of people that's not even really conscious. 

ERICK: Yeah. I love that. And the perspective that comes through for me really powerfully is feeling into the little child inside of the other and that the child wants to dance. The child knows how to dance, the child wants to cry, knows how to cry, wants to laugh, knows how to laugh, and either through the parents or through the culture, they download an inner bully that's like, shut the fuck up. Be quiet, be good, be how mom or dad or coach or culture want you to be and whatever the external critiques are of us or of any group that the label cult is put on. And just by the way, feeling into how cheaply we throw that word around and what you're actually accusing when you really feel into it, like that's a word that our culture uses in the same way that like the Crusades use the devil. That it's this heretic, it's this word to represent like the worst possible thing, because when you really feel into it, if you put forth that label, you're saying a group is intentionally trying to rob the will of the individual and like hijacking maybe their most divine aspect. And to me, that's like one of the heaviest critiques that you could ever charge someone with. But anyone who is denigrating what they're seeing in other communities that they know that they want, if it's external, that's evidence that it's been an internal abuse of their own inner call to do those things for decades. And that there's massive compassion when I feel into, like, every photo you've ever seen of a Fit For Service, we're sober. Like, I think that that's one of the things that people misunderstand. We're not doing sex parties and we're not doing psychedelics. It's an explicit invitation to show up and learn how to cultivate these experiences endogenously. If you see a picture. 

AUBREY: You said cultivate and didn't even, didn't even get happy about that. Pun Master Gazi. I really do enjoy these podcasts because they're usually pun free and it's like a great discourse that we have. But I just want to commend you for passing right over that word.

KYLE: When you said culprit, I was like, “culprick.”

ERICK: So what I've done is I've ruined everyone on this team because I've punned so much that now they are making the puns for me and I wasn't even meaning to do it. 

CAITLYN: In my own mind alone. 

ERICK: But let me see if I can land what I was about to say. Nope, it's gone. 

AUBREY: This idea that people are accusing us of these wild accusations. The irony is that it's literally the opposite. We come with no dogma, there's no script, there's nothing. It's like, what is going to get you, individually? To the place where you can live the most flourishing life. And I think that's one of the keys. If we're going to transition now into the keys of really cultivating a community, one of the things is not to come with an agenda. I mean, we have a structure of different ideas of different initiations and experiences and things we're going to learn, like coming up, we have beyond biohacking, mastering the body for total transformation. So how do you use your breath? To access different states of consciousness meditation. We're going to do a race that involves this challenge from ancient Sparta that I don't want to ruin the surprise about. We're going to do some cool shit flow state with Jamie Wheel, here's things that we have on there, but it's not all of these things are designed to elicit someone's own self awareness about where they need to go, what their next step is without a dogma of trying to get them to do anything. And I think that's the thing that, that people kind of miss is oftentimes there's this intention about, I don't really feel like naming them by name because people have been involved, but there's always this like intention for some marketing thing. Like, all right, now that you've done this, go talk to 10 people and you got to bring 10 people back into this fucking thing. And I think probably all of us know which program I'm talking about, but there's all kinds of shit that you hear about where it's like, you get people all fired up and in this riled up situation, and then hit them with the pitch. That’s I think where the people who are a little bit more sensitive are going to really push away from that. And that's something I think, one of the principles for, if you're starting anything like this, it's like, don't come in with a fucking agenda. Like if you're going to have people become Fit For Service, like genuinely be of service. Like that's the guided thing, like genuinely be of service. And don't have that fucking hubris to think that you know what's going to be of service specifically for that person. Give them the container to figure that out for themselves. Whatever the fuck that is. What healing do you need? Let me see if I can support that. Without this top down, like, I know what you need. Like this is a big part of the paradigm that the whole world needs to shift. Which is reverence and trust. For everybody else out there like I trust you, I trust you to figure it out. If you want to dance, fucking dance. If you want to wiggle around and not dance, wiggle around. If you want to sit down and watch us dance, sit down and watch us dance. Like, do you, do you. Whatever you need to do. If we're doing breath work, go fucking go for it if you want. Chill out if you want. This is your journey. There's not an idea that I know what you need. You know what you need. And you have to make the step. Because if you don't make the step and someone else does it for you, then you're going to become codependent.

CAITLYN: Yeah, there are no healers. But for the people who hold space enough to inspire or invite you to have your own intelligence, your own psyche and physical intelligence, originate your own healing, it's space holding to allow self healing. And that's the process that yields lasting transformation is when somebody's own innate intelligence starts to spark and guide them in their own perfect, unique way for their own medicine to flourish. And I think when people see these and there are people out there offering themselves as healers, I am going to fix you. And that's a big misinterpretation of what we are doing. We are creating a space to invite people into recognizing their own intelligence to self heal.

KYLE: Yeah. We've talked so often about, sorry, brother, I know you want to jump in, but we talk so often about how much has changed from the very first year until now. And the sum of all the parts are so much greater than we ever could have imagined because of the community specifically. That was the first thing that stood out where it was like, damn, this thing is phenomenal. And I think about some of those things that weren't necessarily on the radar, but are super evident in the last year and that's as we heal or some people come here they don't need healing. They just need direction or clarity but as we go through these things with as brothers and sisters and arms and in the containers that we provide and set up for each other with the experts that we bring in, we're reconnecting people to their intuition. We're reconnecting them back to their internal compass and their daemon. They have a connection now to the high self, whatever you want to call that. The inner voice becomes stronger and the inner judge will always be there, but it can be recognized for what it is and it can sit in the passenger seat. And with that, people can actually have full identity with the true self and they can move into designing. All the things that they want in their lives and taking steps towards that. 

ERICK: Yeah, so that actually really helps clarify something for me. And it's that the tragedy of a lot of classical psychiatry and even therapy and even kind of classic Western Healthcare is it's implied. You don't know, I know, come to me and I'll give you the things that you need. That fundamentally is the opposite of what we are seeking to do with our container. And what I think any community that is going to be successful must do and what we are seeking to do is how can we create a space for you to go through whatever you need to go through, so you can connect to that inner voice, where now there is no external power that's in between you and what is right for you. And that's actually radical in the spaces that we're used to that we call health care or healing or whatever the thing is.

AUBREY: Think about thousands of years of religion where the religious institution has been the middle person between a human and the divine. You gotta come through me. Oh, you, God? Yeah, yeah. Come through me. Pay me 10%. Come through me. I'll show you God. It's like, what? What the fuck are you talking about? This whole concept, and same in medicine and certainly doctors can have expertise. I think we've probably all gotten our life saved at some point by an amazing doctor. But still this idea that we can't take most of our health into our own hands and that you have to go through this system, this middle person. Yeah, sometimes you need to. No fucking doubt about it. But for so much of the experience, you talk to someone like Dr. Zach Bush and their whole point is to remind people of their inner healer. And I think that's why Joe Dispenza is just on this wildfire of like attraction to people because he's showing people our own power to be our own inner healer. And like this takes our power back kind of mentality of recognizing the sovereign majesty of the entirety of who we are like that is a revolution. I think it's part of the revolution that we're currently in where more top down control is being pushed onto the world, less trust, less reverence. And then other people are like, “whoa, this is too much.” So they're pulling back and being like, I'm going to take my health in my own hands and I'm going to trust myself. So it's creating this kind of interesting contest between control and people recognizing and trusting themselves and each other. 

CAITLYN: All of that highlights for me, it's wild to feel how we're just born so immersed in our culture that we don't even question that passive, like giving away of our authority and really a fun and interesting and kind of mind blowing question to ask would be like, what cult am I already in? What cult was I born into? Am I ever pointing a finger at the powers that be that I surrender my sovereign majesty to? Like, let's ask that question. 

ERICK: And it's such an interesting dance and it's part of the beauty of getting to be a human because nothing is A or B, nothing. It's either this or it's that.

It's this beautiful interplay of all these different things and that one of the things that we have to balance is how much do I need to come into myself so that I can come into a community? So you are not serving a community by completely giving yourself away to a community where you transgress yourself and you abandon yourself and you don't listen to that inner whisper, but also you do not serve. You are not of service. If you are only paying attention to what is healing for you or good for you at the expense of being in relation with others. And so there's this interesting balance between I'm sovereign to the degree that I can authentically serve and I serve to the degree that I can be in alignment with what is true in my body now, which is not truth, but try to do something that doesn't feel true for your body now and see what happens.

AUBREY: So let's take this to somebody who's just listening and they want to start to create this kind of relational construct with their peers. And I remember I was, I don't know, it was probably 24, 25, I was post college. And I felt like, man, I really don't have a true friend. I don't have, not a single one. And then I met Bodhi. And Bodhi was like somebody where– 

CAITLYN: Hey, I was your friend. 

AUBREY: Yeah. You were a different type of friend. 

CAITLYN: Just kidding. 

AUBREY: But it was really about being seen. I felt like he really saw me and I really saw him and there was this kind of relaxing like, holy shit, I think this is one of the five basic drives that we all have is to be seen, but I think it's not about necessarily you have to meet that special person that sees you, which is a way that it was there because I didn't have the technology to actually cultivate that. And I think, what we've discovered is there's ways in which you can do this, either through one conversation, sitting down, making an agreement and maybe having some prompts like what is that thing that you're most ashamed of? What is that thing that you judge yourself the most for? And then the important thing is that when someone is sharing, you have to be a clear and loving mirror. Like if you judge them, for saying the thing that they judge themself for, it's just going to reinforce that thing, it's going to bury that shame poison pill even deeper into the psyche, like you have to be willing to hold that reflection with non judgment, what is the thing you desire most, like all of these things, what is the thing that you think is the best attribute of you, but you would be too shy to express it. Like all of these prompts where you allow someone to be comfortable to actually say the truth and then you go back and forth, like sharing these things. We've done this in men's groups and different other places. It's always very powerful. It's just, first of all, just a conversation technology to get you to a point where you're actually speaking what's really going on, not filtering it so that the watcher of you is knowing what the watcher of them is going to think, but just like letting it out. And what you're going to find is everybody's got the same shit. Everybody's operating on this slightly superficial level where we're just modulating how things are going just enough so that people don't go, “Whoa, you're fucked up.” But really the truth is that we're all fucked up. We all have weird shit going on in our brain and in our psyche and different lusts and different shames and different things that are happening. And if we all just actually like, let it out. Like, wow, I'm not alone. I'm actually not alone. 

ERICK: The thing that is interesting is, so your path of being seen for the first time came through meeting someone who was able to create that effect for you. For me, I had to see myself, I didn't have anyone around me that could reflect back to me in a way where I felt like I was fully seen and I could relax, and for me it was journaling. I think I was like 24, I had just gotten out of a 4 year relationship, and I felt fucking broken, I was like, no one knows me. And I started reading the artist's way by Julia Cameron. And I started this practice of journaling three pages every day where the way you journal was expressively stream of consciously where you never picked up the pen, you never worried about how you were spelling anything and you would never reread it. And that the point was just to be honest, just to admit to yourself. Whatever was true in that moment, and I realized after I did that for a couple of weeks where I was like, I have never created a space in my life to have a conversation with myself where I wasn't in persona trying to win other people over, I'd never had a space in my life where I was being honest with myself. And once I cultivated being honest with myself and it took months and there were some brutal fucking pages. I could start to just be honest with the people around me who weren't used to that. And it actually weeded out a lot of my relationships at that point in my life, but it created a vibration in me where the first person I met after that became, still to this day, my longest tenured friend, because I had created the commitment in me to see myself and then just to share that with people. So it's like there's two ways to do it. You can find the person who has the ability to meet you where you're at and look through your persona. And then there's the other way where you can start internally and I love journaling.

AUBREY: I think that's a great point about what a good place to start. For me, I think one of the challenges was, that this was 22 years ago, I was 18 years old. I did a psychedelic medicine journey with a shaman in the mountains of New Mexico, MDMA and psilocybin combination. All night, alone in the hut, in the fuckin mountains with coyotes howling and rain swirling and a fire to keep me warm, and I went through that experience and nobody that I knew in my fuckin peer group did anything even fuckin close to that. So I spent all night feverishly writing and understanding and actually getting to know myself through that. That was my awakening technique moment where I understood the entirety of myself. But then I couldn't find anybody and it's a different world now. I mean, fast forward 22 years, it's different now. Like everybody's like, “yeah, I do. I lost 17 times and blah, blah, blah.” But it was just different then. And so, I think one of the reasons that when I met Bodhi is, he was just cruising around as a kid in New Hampshire, picking up mushrooms out of fucking cow patties and eating them and cruising down to the stream and hiking up a mountain and skiing on mushrooms at 10 years old. And he was in it. So he saw me and there was a depth of like awareness of self. Like he knew himself as not only Bodhi, the persona. But Bodhi, the infinite, undying, unborn consciousness, and he could see me as the same, and I was like, holy shit, I'm not fucking crazy, like, here we go, but I think it's a different world now, but I think it is very important to really be able to see yourself. And I think if I hadn't done that, I wouldn't have found that person who could also see me in return. So it's a very similar idea and this is not a recommendation to go do psychedelic medicine. This is like, whatever your method is, you got there through journaling, like whatever the method is, like to deeply know thyself.

CAITLYN: Yeah, I will say I've always been, I haven't always. I grew up very, very shy and I compensated and adapted to that as I came into my adulthood by being hyper social. And so I've always had a lot of community, but a lot of it originated in my early twenties from getting myself in a state through drugs or alcohol where I could feel my inhibitions subside and be in full expression and it's been some work to unpack all of that. But I will say there's a couple of things that worked for me, always. And one is seeing people. If you make a commitment to yourself to be present to somebody and really show up and see them, then it offers that doorway, like you're describing with Bodhi, where there's an opportunity for them to open up and actually be who they are. And a lot of the ways it built community was creating the invitation. I'm going to be in full expression. I'm going to see you and help you feel special and seen and someone is presencing to you. And that I could feel it and I'm just open and feel like, yes, I'm invited into more expression. I'm invited into being heard and seen. And I ultimately started moving through my own rites of passage and finding deeper levels of myself. And letting down some of those crutches I use to be more uninhibited and getting to actually—

AUBREY: You let those down? 

CAITLYN: I did. 

KYLE: She's still got a pair in the corner. Just in case she needs to bring him out of retirement.

CAITLYN: I mean, they're more like fun toys now, rather than like, I depend on them for walking.

AUBREY: Yeah, it's like a cane with a bedazzled, sparkly rainbow cane. 

CAITLYN: Yeah, like a dope, like a staff. 

KYLE: It's the walking stick. It's the staff with a crystal on top. Yeah, mine hurts. 

CAITLYN: But the other thing I just wanted to mention too is poetry. Like art, for me, I'm such a full spectrum being and had all of these dynamic sides of myself. It was like they needed a place to go. And so journaling was massive for me, being honest with myself in the journaling space, but also giving a channel for whatever felt too wild or too dark or too unconventional to have a voice and be transformed into art. And every time I share it, there's this outpouring of people being like, “me too. Thank you. Thank you.” And that just invites that forward in other people. And so you get to honor all of yourself when you're willing to take the full spectrum truth of who you are and put it into poetry or art of some form. And you find those people that resonate with that and you can look at each other and say, “I see you.” 

KYLE: It reminds me of Jamie Will, telling me after my hell loop, he said anytime “you feel like it's groundhog day or if you're stuck in a rut, seek novelty, create art and help others.” And I said, “well, how do I help others?” And he says, “help others seek novelty and create art.” It's so basic and so true. I share a lot with you, Caty, and that from 13 years old on, there was never a stretch where I was sober. Maybe a couple of weeks or something like that and then football season comes around and be sober for football season ish. And yeah, when football ended, that was probably the darkest time of my life and fighting started to give me that doorway were unlike football demanded so much of my body that if I fucked off with cocaine or alcohol, like I would have months just trying to get my cardio back. So I actually had much longer stints. And if I fought three times a year. I was dead sober for at least six or seven months of that year. And that really forced me in a way to sit with myself and along the way sports psychologist, breath work, all of these things that I thought were weird or fucking silly, they mattered because it mattered how I showed up in a cage. And thankfully I had my coach, my first maestro. We'd see it was my boxing coach working me with traditional sweat lodges, Tim has calls and plant medicines. And in those experiences, that further peeled back the onion thoroughly, I actually felt comfortable in my skin for the first time in my life and eventually no longer identified with being a fighter or needing that, or this is what I do. It's like, no, this is what I do now. And when it ends, that'll be cool too. But I think the main driver for me at that point, and for my wife, Tosh was, we two, were seeking others. We had found it in each other and we weren't experts by any means when we met each other, neither one of us had done ayahuasca, she hadn't done anything. But we were willing to grow with one another and that brought us to that place of self realization where it was like, we're not being fed by the relationships we have, we need that. And of course, I and psilocybin would lead us to you, Aubrey. And I just said yes. And here we are. But I think so many people find themselves in a similar situation where either through journaling or meditation or yoga or plant medicines, or even just through pain, like Paul Chek talks about the pain teacher. Through that pain teacher, they come to a space of fuck this, something's wrong and I want it to be better. And the first thing they see is the thing that's closest to them and that's the relationship either with a significant other or with their friends. And if the group of friends is doing the same old shit that they've always done, not to shit on people, but if it's fantasy football and getting hammered on the weekends, that's going to run its course and it may not. Some people may do that until they die and be happy with it. But for some of us, that's going to run its course and we're going to want more. And I think that's one of the biggest factors that brings people into this group is a desire to be around like minded individuals that want to grow. 

CAITLYN: I really want to just piggyback on that a little bit to say. It is a lot of the time when we're craving community we think of the people that we know and it's like I want a different kind of relationship, I want to build this here where I'm at with the people that I know, but sometimes that mirror is when you talk about your peers back then, same for me in nightclubs or something, there's a mirror that expects a persona, there's a mirror that's comfortable with you being the way that you always were. And so one of the things that really helped me when I was at my rock bottom living in Las Vegas was I was like, I want to write. I just found a writer's group. I knew nobody. I went there and I showed up vulnerably and shared my writing and made new friends. And it was like putting yourself in a space where you don't have a familiar mirror. And seeing what emerges from you and what wants to be and allowing that to be received by people can really help you just get to know yourself in a way where you return to your communities and you can call it forth in how you show up.

AUBREY: So here's something that I would like to propose to people. Everybody thinks about writing your most intimate truthful thoughts down in a journal. Think about you writing all of that stuff that's on your heart and mind. And you probably should actually go do that at some point. It's always really helpful to do that. And now imagine, okay, who are the people or is the person that you would hand that to to read? 

ERICK: And feel safe. 

AUBREY: And feel safe. Like, who would you hand that to to read? Just not thinking about now, of course, if you think about that, you're about to hand it to you, you'll start to self edit and start to just write things in a way that, well, let me just round the corners on this jagged piece. I can't fucking say it like it is if someone's going to read it, but no, it's already been written just from the truth. You believe fully that as you're writing it, this is going to be locked away forever or burned and incinerated. No one will ever see it. But at that point you have a revelation, someone comes to you. Okay. Who do you feel comfortable showing this to? And if that answer is no one, then this is the opportunity to form a different type of relationship, to form a relationship where you would share your absolute unfiltered, unedited, most raw, vulnerable thoughts with like, who are those people? Now, all of us, we have this little ritual where we trade beads and we wear a necklace and we all have each other's beads on the necklace, which is signifying that very thing, that all of us, and if not, we should probably have a chat, but I would trust that with everybody who's beat is on the necklace. Now, I will say one challenging issue is in romantic relationships, despite how close you are and how some things, like Vy knows the way the hair pattern is around my butthole whereas I don't want anybody else to know that, but she does. That's cool. 

KYLE: Polaroid at the bottom of your self reflection.

AUBREY: So there's certain parts that I'm really comfortable with her seeing, but like that's where it's a real challenge. And we've talked about it where the first ayahuasca of the year I was like shown like, man, I have a lot of lust still, even though I'm not polyamorous, it's still in there and I'm not trying to do anything with it, but I want Vy to see it, and Vy didn't want to look at it because it was scary based on her past relationships. And then through the course of this year, like, allowing her to see that has just brought us so much more intimately. So it's a challenge in those romantic partnerships because there's also a cult of relationship, which is, once we're together, you're only going to be attracted to me. You will be attracted to me and only me, like this is what the fucking thing is. And it's like, really, maybe not. I mean, let's be honest. Let's just be real. 

KYLE: Nope. You signed a contract.

AUBREY: Well, I was talking to my sister today and my sister's had a lot of challenging relationships as well. My sister, Shannon. And she was like, I just want fucking someone to be honest. Like, yeah, you're my favorite, but I'm still gonna want to bang some other women on the side. But you're the best of them. You're really the best of them. She'd be like I'd fucking take that. I'd fucking take it. Just because she's craving that honesty because so much has been sheltered and hidden behind this wall of like, I'm going to show you just a little bit. So I think this is really an important thing to think about. Like who are the people that you would share that journal entry with? Who are the people that you would fully let that out? 

ERICK: And what this brings up for me as one of the key components to cultivating community is essentially initiation rights, which is more fundamentally do hard shit with the people close to you where there's a clear set of rules and there's like a goal. And sports tries to get at this in high school. And like most of us, almost everyone who is on our team has played, has excelled at some type of sport. And sport, what it can do when it works is it can show you that you can go beyond what you thought your limits were. And you also get to see what the people around you are really made of. When there's no more energy in the brain or the nervous system to cultivate a persona like you really can know, do they show up when they think that there's no hope. And it can be as simple as a basketball game or a football game. And that what we have found in Fit For Service is like breathwork is initiatory, dancing which is so wild to me and really makes me emotional when I feel into for most of my life, I had the story that I could not dance, which is gaslighting myself because children know how to dance. And I can feel the people in my life, like the people in my family who all hold that story. They don't believe that they can dance and they don't even believe that they can hug and they don't believe that it's okay to cry and they don't believe that it's okay to properly or to honestly express themselves. And so, initiatory rights in the form of ecstatic dance or breath work can give people the opportunity to see a whole bunch of other people in real time go beyond their limits. And there's something binding about that. And then when you bring the lens of initiatory rights to conversations, that's essentially what we're talking about here. When it talks about cultivating honesty is like, will you make the agreement with someone else of, I will never lie to you. I will do my absolute best to cultivate how well I can speak the truth, but what I will not do is consciously lie to you ever. You've just created an initiatory container with someone. Once you get to the point where there's no one in your “community” that you are actively in deceit with, which is something that before I started it, that's just baseline, like baseline is I'm going to manage you with my language, so I don't feel uncomfortable. But it costs so much cognitive energy to not be honest. And it's one of those things where, like, if you eat like shit most of your life, you don't know how much you're taxing your nervous system until you do a fast. And then you're eating Skittles the way that I used to as a kid feels like poison in my body now. That once you get to the point where you are not managing your appearance through line with anyone in your life. The fucking– 

CAITLYN: Yes 

ERICK: That comes from that. It starts to create what I think is the third really important piece to creating community is to have an ethos that is above every individual in the group. And that fundamentally is what makes a cult impossible, is that if there's truly a collected, agreed upon ethic. That transcends any individual, there's no one who gets to act outside of the ethic and doesn't get called out by the community. Those three feel like really key aspects for people who want to start to create a community where they're at.

CAITLYN: Absolutely. And I think there is an opportunity for anyone listening for all of us right now to start with ourselves. If you create an ethos for yourself and how you're going to relate to yourself and you give yourself permission to express in truth to yourself, that's a massive baseline to start from, because, I mean, I'm personally recognizing, still moving through this process and it may be a lifetime process of work, but there are so many ways where we inhibit our truth from ourselves, even in the privacy of our own space. You dissociate from anger, from shame we hurry ourselves, we busy ourselves, we feel the tears rise and we suppress them. And so much of the ethos that we can create for ourselves is radical permission for the body to do what it needs to do. And when we practice that with devotion, we learn to give ourselves permission to express in a way that becomes an invitation to everybody around us. So if we can be with what's arising and let it move through our bodies, and maybe dance alone, weird, in our underwear, in our house, or maybe screaming and raging.

AUBREY: Well, this is something that I think is very important to take a pause in. Because the ecstatic dance container is radical permission to dance, but you're in a group. And now the group is encouraged to either keep their eyes closed. You're not dancing, looking at somebody. It's not like a dance circle at a wedding party. We know where everybody's looking at that, which is pretty fun. We've done that a few times. A few worms, you did some break dancing. We're getting after it. That's a different– 

KYLE: That wasn't an ecstatic dance. 

AUBREY: That was not an ecstatic dance. The ecstatic dance is about your full permission to express yourself however the fuck you want to express yourself, but it's in a group. So it's understandable. Like I get it. I understand why. And sometimes ecstatic dance is blindfolded. That's how I learned it actually was blindfolded. And we had different facilitators who had little feathers and they would like trying to move you away from running into people

KYLE: Or speakers.

AUBREY: Yeah, exactly. But the truth is that most people would be afraid to dance in their own room in the dark in a freeway. Now, why? That doesn't make any fucking sense. It's because we have two parts of ourselves. One is the person that's alive, the living body, the one who just witnesses life, perceives life, the perceiver, just life is moving in and out of them with each breath in the present moment, the one that's really alive. And then the one that is watching the one that is alive. And judging that person, creating a contiguous story in a timeline of past and present with all of the shoulds and all the indoctrinations of culture, everything that it's learned and watching and trying to guide that to a successful outcome. The outcome being an increased chance for reproduction and survival, et cetera, using pleasure versus pain, all of the things that were biologically programmed, it's all part of what the watcher is doing. So the watcher has a purpose. It's trying to get us into a story that actually will yield a positive result. But if we're in the identity of the watcher, then we're stifling and strangling the person that's really alive. And you'll know that because you won't be willing to do something in the privacy of your own room. And this could be dancing, this could be if you're a man finding your own prostate. It's you, with you.

CAITLYN: Yeah. It might be where we're most constricted. 

AUBREY: It's so crazy. And we think like, “oh I wouldn't want to tell my buddies about,” “yeah, sure, all right. Fine.” But just try to be you, with you and deal with the watcher. Deal with that part of you that's watching you. And the beautiful thing about community, though, is even when you're having trouble with that, when somebody else goes first, they give you radical permission. You see that person really going like, well, fuck, I guess I can do it. It relaxes the watcher, because the watchers like “Oh, wow. This is a different set of rules here.” I got to reframe my whole construct of indoctrination to say like, “wow, I can do it. I can cry. I can totally lose my shit.” I mean, there's people in the breath work. It was like full exorcism mode, full on screaming and crying and whatever. And we had experts there. And fortunately, we had Blu and that experience for the most, it was like– 

ERICK: She’s beyond expert.

AUBREY: Yeah. All right, Blu. You got that one over there. But it's not that any one of us couldn't, that we would hold them, it's just like There's somebody there that just is gonna see you and love you and help you move through, and allow you to just experience what you're experiencing fully. And then you're like, wow, I'm fucking free. Wait a minute, I'm free. 

CAITLYN: Yeah. And you can do that for yourself. 

AUBREY: I'm really free. And then the watcher is retrained. And I think that's what Fit For Service is doing. It's retraining someone's individual watcher. So that they become free. They're really free.

CAITLYN: And the higher expression of the watcher is the loving witness. It's just compassionate witnessing and that's the God in us, if it just watches. 

AUBREY: That's actually the one that's alive. It's a loving witness. That's what Ram Dass was talking about. He's talking about the alive person. The one that's really alive, that's a real being, that's just lovingly witnessing all. That's God, the loving, a perspectival witness of all. I'm just perceiving and breathing and breathing and living. 

CAITLYN: I think that's the spectrum of our human experience. The human is divine, wildly divine, but the human is going to fully merge with the experience, have all the emotions, feel all of the pleasure, feel all of the suffering, and be in that. And you get to kind of move as a human being, a conscious human being of a divine nature, move from loving witness to full immersion into the human experience and have the full spectrum of what we came here to be. 

KYLE: This reminds me of Sam Harris's argument back in the day that we don't truly have free will. And that is because of the societal impulses and nature and nurture all of those things. The biological drivers that are behind us today. We can steer, but we don't have full range of motion with the wheel yet. And this is really what we're cultivating together, is to give people back that steering wheel, is to give them full access to the full range of motion of their entire being, and then they can decide, and they can also, with that compass, catch themselves back in the old narrative, like, holy shit, I did it again. Oh, that's okay. Wow. All right. That's cool. That's okay. It's like when you first learn how to meditate and not beat your own ass for not doing it correctly, where you're like, “idiot, those 20 minutes of fucking thinking.” Like that dissolves, like Emily Fletcher said, she's like, you could have 19 minutes and 30 seconds of pure trash. But if the last 30 seconds, you're able to quiet your mind, that's a success because it's just a practice. There's no good, there's no bad to it. 

ERICK: And a thing that comes up for me that's really interesting is, for 10 years of my professional life, I thought that the key to helping people was to help them change their stories. And then I started researching trauma because we were actually working on a book and I was doing research on what creates addiction. And I found Gabor Mate and he was essentially like all addiction comes from trauma. And I was like, I've heard that word, but I've never really studied it. And I started going down that rabbit hole and it revolutionized entirely how I see people can heal themselves. It actually starts with the trauma of the body. And a really interesting thing to feel into is, if the body is traumatized and there's no one in our culture that is privileged enough not to have trauma, that if the body is traumatized, what the watcher is seeking to do unconsciously is as if it doesn't have free will, that it's flinching in a way based off of things that happened in the past where it's unable to fully express. And what I've learned just in the last couple of weeks through working with a physical trainer, because I have a decade of trauma in my shoulder from an injury when I was in high school and the truth of my body, without the presence of someone to push me beyond it, would actually be to keep me in my trauma. Like I would not go beyond what feels safe because the authentic life flow of the living one is like, “no, no.” And it took an external person who I trusted to tell me, you're actually safe. Your body signals right now are incorrect. Trust me. And I fucking hated him in that moment, but then I went beyond, like physically, I went beyond a range of motion that I would never have gone beyond if I was only listening to the intelligence of my body. And so when I think of the watcher, like the ultimate expression of the one that's living would be that Ram Dass, God, breathing, but the ultimate expression of the watcher is like, it's the just right parent. It's the one that can see the child. And it's like, I see you. I feel that you're telling me that you can't do more. You can, and you're safe. And it's one of the things that we are constantly trying to learn as space holders, what is our responsibility? When it comes to honoring where their body is at right now. Honoring what the child is really saying, and then when do we ask them to go beyond? And we still haven't figured that out. Like that's a constant like musical–

AUBREY: Situational. Yeah, you got to really read, read this situation. What occurs to me is, if you define cult as a way to actually indoctrinate and put a new set of constructs into the watcher to control people, what actually is happening is we're the anti cult. It's really the irony of the situation is, the accusation is actually the opposite. What we're trying to do is restore people's radical free will. Like the radical freedom and sovereignty that we all have, like if you were to boil down what we're actually doing in Fit For Service, it's absolute radical freedom and permission to be you in the fullest extent of what that is beyond all of the programming that it is. It's really the anti cult. It's the unwinding and unlearning of everything that's kept you small, kept you restricted, kept you from being the fullness of who you are. And the example that we all try to set. I mean, one of the things that I know about leadership is if you want to lead, go first. And this is always the way, when we did that exercise in Sedona where the idea was to share something that was really deeply challenging in your life. Something was really hard. I knew that the way to get this kicked off was to go first. And I shared the story to you about when my father became mentally ill and I had to go into the house and I had to confront him and I had to let in the police and the police took him away and it's a very powerful story that's actually getting woven into the darkness documentary from what was filmed there. But I just broke down and I was just sobbing and there's 200 people watching me just drooling and sobbing and crying and you being there and just putting your hand on my heart and saying like, I see you. And then all of a sudden everybody else is like, well, fuck, I guess I can say some shit too. I guess I can share what's really been hard for me. I guess it's okay if I cry and lose it. And that's, I think the big thing here, is that if you really want to lead and you really want to do this, go first, go first. Just have the courage to go first. And then maybe some people won't be ready yet and then that's okay, then you know where they're at. That's all right, but if you go first, it gives the permission for everybody else to be like, okay, this is safe. 

CAITLYN: It feels like with Erick's metaphor of the parent instead of the judge like the antidote to what the like the shadow parent or the parent that kind of shaped us, whether that was society or religion or our own parents was the withdrawal of permission. So that was all shaped by saying, “no, you can't behave well.” And we have a lot of unlearning to do there. And it starts with permission. I just had a radical experience this week, because I was so deeply ingrained to be good, to be a nice girl and to help me feel safe. We're animals. We, the watcher, are helping us survive. It believes it is, but what your story is so powerful. It made me emotional because at a certain point we can't trust it anymore that it's actually got our best interests at heart. And I had permission from someone I'm working with, to work with a dream I had where I was being attacked by a man. And he said, “what did you want to do at that moment?” And I said, “I wanted to turn around and grab him by the throat and throw him.” And he put pillows in front of me and he said, “do it.” And I was like, I can't. Like it feels awkward. And I was choking the life out of this pillow and screaming, “don't fucking touch me! Don't fucking touch me! I'll fucking kill you if you fucking touch me!” And I was in kill mode. I realized my whole life, everywhere I walk, the story is like, make sure they like you so you don't get hurt. See a stranger on the street, you smile, even if you feel something in your gut, especially as a woman. And all the times I let people touch me and I didn't say what I was feeling and what I was feeling was I want to turn around and grab you by the neck and fucking kill you. And just to have that space to express that. I don't need to kill somebody, but I need, my body, needs to express the primal rage that is there 

ERICK: It needs to feel that you'll defend it. 

CAITLYN: Yeah. And I wasn't for my whole life. So the energy that comes back, all the energy that's taken to dissociate from my anger. Like, no wonder I was tired all the time. No wonder I love stimulants, et cetera, et cetera. It's such a coming home. 

AUBREY: Yeah. Repression is corrected by expression. 

ERICK: Get 'em, write that down somebody. 

AUBREY: I mean, that's it. Like, all of this thing that we've repressed, when you express it, that's it. And it relieves the pressure. I mean, this is something that Stephen Jaggers taught you. He just told me that once and I was like, yeah. These words are very important. 

ERICK: Just got goosebumps. Yeah. Shout out to Jaggers. I saw him post either. I believe he said numbness is an active process. It is your birthright to sense and to feel. And if you don't feel you are actively expending energy to blunt the natural function of your body and that when you express you break through the numbness and you free all of this life force inside of you. 

CAITLYN: So true. 

AUBREY: When you talk about these ways in which you can get to that, one of the interesting things about sports is, sports is great because it reveals the truth about somebody that you normally wouldn't see because pressure reveals things. And we've seen this also globally, like the pressure of this pandemic has revealed things about different people. And we have the choice then, we can either judge that, we can either judge what we see, and that's a very natural inclination, is to judge what you see. But the other invitation is to look at it from the ceremonial context. And that's the beauty of seeing something as a ceremony. When you see it as a ceremony, like you see breathwork, there's no judgment. Like if someone's crying, if someone's rageful, if someone's going through whatever, it's like, oh, this is a ceremony, but we have the invitation to look at life like a ceremony or sports like a ceremony. Someone's like getting really hard on themselves and beating themselves up. All right. This is their ceremony. How do you hold space for that? If someone's like gets panicked and terrified and freezes in a moment of challenge, like. Okay. That's a ceremony. Like, how do you be there for that? Instead of getting in that place of judgment. So I think a lot of times we use these kinds of intense things and then we reveal something and then we're like, well, we found out what's found out what's wrong with that person. And maybe that is the right choice. Maybe there is a discernment that you need. Like, all right, we're not in alignment yet. And so I do really like playing sports with people. I like seeing what's underneath the surface there. I like going through these things, but I haven't reached a level of consciousness and universal radical love where I don't still be like a little bit judgmental, unless I've overlaid the ceremonial context, which is the whole entirety of a Fit For Service experience is like the whole fucking thing is a ceremony. So there's no judgment during that whole thing, but if it's on the pickleball court or if it's on the basketball court or we're like in a fucking cold plunge or just out in the sauna, I won't look at that like a ceremony. I'd be like, what's wrong with this fucking person? 

KYLE: Get your ass back in here, you've been here for fucking eight minutes. Come on. It's 180, it ain't 230, let's go.

AUBREY: So it's like it's very powerful to bond people together in that, but I think the invitation is not only to do hard shit, but do hard shit and try to get to the place where you're not going to judge them and look at it like a ceremony and recognize that life is hard shit and everybody's in their ceremony. But nobody knows that they're in a ceremony. So they just think they're just being, they're just acting accordingly, but like we're all being tested always. Like, how are we going to respond? How are you going to respond? And how are you going to respond as a witness? 

ERICK: Yeah, the interesting thing to feel into, and I wrote about this a little bit a couple days ago because it's been really heavy for me. And it's that when you overlay the ceremonial context, you're essentially saying, how is this happening for me? And how is this happening for us? And one of the things that I've been feeling into is, most people's default is how is this happening to me? 

AUBREY: Or why is this happening to me? 

ERICK: Right. It's essentially to look for not how I can learn and grow from this, but who's at fault for why this is. And the thing that I've been feeling into, and this is also an interesting thing about anyone who wants to be a part of a community. And it's that these agreements are psychotechnologies and they're incredibly powerful when you claim them for yourself. If you ever try to force someone else to claim them, I think that's where you're transgressing. Because that's essentially where you're robbing them of their ability. 

AUBREY: And it won't work. 

ERICK: It won't work. 

AUBREY: And it has to be chosen. 

ERICK: And it can fucking hurt other people, like when you look at someone who isn't ready to put on the ceremonial contacts and they've been through a tremendous amount of pain and you tell them this is happening for you, it feels like one of the cruelest things that you can do to someone. Because for them, I think why it feels cruel is you haven't bore witness to me to the point where you get to say that to me. And largely that's because they haven't witnessed themselves fully or allowed themselves to be witnessed by you. And that for anyone who is trying to cultivate community, whatever the agreements are, they must be self chosen and they cannot be imposed.

AUBREY: One of the things that I recall from spending time with Mike Dolce back in the day is he said the favorite part of his job was at the very end of a weight cut. And Mike Dolce was helping a lot of fighters go through weight cuts. Because at the very end of the weight cut, when they're completely dehydrated and they're in that, hot bath for the fucking 10th time, spitting in a cup, trying to get the last fucking ounce of moisture out of their body. There's a real truth that emerges. And sometimes the truth is that person is a fucking dick just like angry. But underneath that is there's a real truth that emerges and he would always look at that like a ceremony, like we're going into a ceremony. So if that person cusses at me and is an asshole, like, it's okay. This is a ceremony. Like, it's all good. Like I'm here for you, and I'm not going to take offense for that. And I wonder, for you, Kyle, having been in that type of environment. If that's something that like, just because of the hardness of that part, of course, fighting is hard too but there's a lot of judgment that can happen in fighting in the actual contest of the sport, but in that moment, whether you felt like you access something, cause this was probably even before you were really deep in your own spiritual path and you're probably with other people in the weight cuts. And I think it's just kind of like an understood scenario. Whereas if your homie who's fighting is in a weight cut and they fucking break in some way, like you don't hold that shit against them. It's an understood ceremony amongst fighters and warriors in this position. Like, yeah, I fucking get it. 

KYLE: Yeah. It's bringing up tons of memories. I always had an easy time, not easy, but I always made weight fairly easy. I put it back on, but it wasn't the right way to put it back on. I could get it off quick and it just it affected my cardio immensely when I was fighting, but bringing up memories, like I know we'd see would take us to do a sweat lodge before each fight camp to really clear and get clear on what we were going to focus on and what we were trying to accomplish and what needed to be exercised out before we got really serious about the camp. And then at the end, after the fight, we'd go in to heal, to let go, to see everything and to forgive and just say, I'm going to let go of all this shit now and not hold it. New direction, new directives, but I'm not going to let that linger. And I remember doing a sweat with John Fitch and a bunch of other guys. And we'd see it was a bit of a hard ass, you know? If he goes, anybody leaves in between rounds, you don't come back in. And it was super hardcore warrior sweat and he's with all fighters so I could see it. You can get away with that. But Fitch felt like he was fucking trapped inside the weight cut and he goes, “I can't.” And I'm like, “just stay with us, brother. Just lay down. You're fine.” So he's laying down. And I think another, he gets through like one more round. And the second the flap opens, he fucking bolts out and waits he chases after him, right? And so I asked John, I was like, “what happened, man?” And he goes, “there was a weight cut that I had where Bob Cook, our coach, actually stood at the door and locked him in there until he made weight in the sauna.” So he felt like he was back there, fucking locked in the sauna until he made weight. And I was like, holy shit. So whatever judgment I had in the moment about like, come on, dude, don't be a fucking pussy. We're all sitting in here. At that point it was like, wow, it brought me to like another. Level of the game and recognizing just how hard each person's experience can be and like every little memory like that. I mean, we do breath work. We've done quite a few breath work journeys. We've done Iboga together. We've done some really gnarly experiences with plant medicines. And initially if you see somebody struggling in breath, it's kind of like, come on, it's breath work. But like the second that voice comes up, it's overcome with the John Fitch story it's overcome with, Oh my first time I fucking completely broke down and was turned inside out and shit my pants or sobbed like a fucking baby for eight hours. I mean, even talk about crying, like I couldn't talk about guiding breath work without crying for a week after Sedona. Because of the level of connection that I had with a couple of our members. And I think that there are so many gifts in that. When I think about how much we learn and grow as coaches, because we're all walking the same firewalk with each one of our members. Some of the most powerful experiences are just that. The level of compassion that I have from going through these things with our members and the connection points that I have to members that I've been with for a very long time when they crack wide open, it cracks me wide open. And that's special that goes well beyond anything that happens in everyday life. 

CAITLYN: Compassion is oneness, when we connect to that we are breaking the barrier of other and self. And that is such big medicine every time we can touch it. 

ERICK: And the thing that comes alive for me when I hear that story, and it's so powerful, Kyle, I appreciate you sharing that, is all the people who would use the judgment of cults, or all the people who are “on the outside” and looking in and judging, there's a child in a sweat lodge, and there's a guard at the door, and we know what we're touching when we're in community with each other, and their inner guard is traumatizing them and it's like, no, you can't go there. You cannot go there. And so it just, it spews all this stuff, but it is compassion. It's like, we all know what it feels like to just feel free to hug someone fully. Like as a man to hug a man and not have any bullshit. They're like, I remember for a long time where that wasn't possible. For me, the people that really stand out the most are my family and it's the friends that I grew up with and it's like they can't hug me. They still don't have it in their body where they feel safe to hug. I've never seen them let themselves cry or if they do, it's this type of crying where they're shaming themselves as they're crying and it's deepening the pain and just feeling how heavy that judge is that's like you can’t have that.

AUBREY: The way that this watcher works. The watcher being the where the judge lives the way that that works is, it's always going to be a little bit harsher. Then whatever you've experienced, that's been painful in your life. So that's how we prevent ourselves from getting in that same situation that hurt us. Well, if our own internal watcher is more severe than the external watcher, well, then we'll be safe because we'll navigate ourselves away from that situation where we're really hurt. And this is like, I can think back to my own life of certain situations where my watcher was activated in a way that took a long time to unwind. All right. First one, I really liked my little ponies. I really liked them. I like to have a whole stable of them. Like I was the Genghis Khan of My Little Pony. It was like, look at all my horses, aren't they pretty? And they smelled good back in the day. I don't know whatever kind of toxic chemicals they used, but man, I was really sad when I got a new My Little Pony. It was like this weird, sweet, rubber, poison.

KYLE: Flame retardant

AUBREY: Sweet rubber poison of My Little Ponies. And my stepbrothers would start to accuse me of being like a little gay kid. When homophobia was rampant 30, 35 years ago, like this was just a part of our culture. This was, you use language to denigrate another person as a man by using homosexual references. So all of a sudden I was like, Oh, okay. No, Milo, you're fucking he man all the way. And I liked he man too. But I also never stopped loving my little ponies. But ultimately, so actually it was our friendship, Kyle, that actually really started to unwind that. And I remember it was like a certain point, I think we were just out drinking or something. And you really hugged me and gave me a real kiss, kind of close to the mouth, but on the cheek and I was like, oh wow, that's like one of the most manly dudes I know and he just hugged me and kissed me almost on the mouth. I guess I'm good. And we would hold hands sometimes and it's like, “oh, oh,” and I know psychologically like, there's no issue I have with anything involving homosexuality, but still because of the way that my stepbrothers and culture acted about me and my little ponies, I was like a little like, I can't look that way. I can't. Like, this is something  that I have to steer away from, which is a real tragedy. And that experience of you being a different type of watcher, you being the external watcher and why I was like, oh, wow. I'm like, I'm free and actually I have my little ponies in my shower now like if anybody goes over, I'm running back. So that's one experience. And then another experience actually you helped to really heal me from and this was a really brutal girlfriend I had in college. I was intoxicatingly attracted to her and she was gorgeous and sexually. So I had sex with her and I came like way too fast, that's, I guess subjective. But it was fast enough where she didn't orgasm. She didn't climax. And it was like, I was certainly wasn't quite ready to, but I was like fucking so into it. And she just looks at me and she goes and rolls over. Turns her back on me and starts masturbating. 

KYLE: She looked you in the eyes and said, you're no knight.

AUBREY: Yeah, exactly. 

CAITLYN: It was a dagger into the heart. 

AUBREY: So I'm just laying in bed and she's just masturbating with her back to me. And after looking at me in disgust. And I was like, I am a loser. I am the loser of most losers. I don't even deserve to be alive. 

KYLE: I'd somewhat might've turned me on in a weird fucked up way. If she kept going for it, I'd been like, all right, all right. I've still got another chance here. Just give me time. And we just bide some time for the rebound to come back and I'll fucking show her you're gonna get it. 

AUBREY: That was the quest. The quest was to always show up in a way that she was fully conquered and satiated and I was redeemed. So I got stuck in this toxic cycle of redemption with her forever, but it never worked. I was always chasing a, chasing a dragon that I could never catch because she was always going to treat me in that certain way. And then ultimately like, I had a very good relationship in between, but it didn't really heal, it started to a little bit. But then in our relationship, it was like, I think because you're such a compassionate person, I felt like, “Oh, actually I'm going to be loved no matter what.” And then it went from this kind of fearful response, which was then creating the reality that I was afraid of more likely, sometimes like I couldn't actually get hard enough, or sometimes I would come too fast. Cause I was so terrified of this external thing that happened. And it's so terrified really of me punishing myself because that girlfriend was gone. But I was so afraid, my own watcher got so harsh to me that I was so scared that it was actually ruining sexuality for me. And then we get into that relationship and then everything starts to heal and then all of a sudden I'm like fucking King Kong, like beating my chest on top of the bed like, Oh ho ho, I'm old as man!

CAITLYN: And you stayed that way ever since? 

AUBREY: I have, it has healed. But it's interesting because for me these patterns are so deep, and I think the point of this is, I'm very blessed, I'm so lucky to have been in a relationship with you, to have found you as a friend to heal and really correct these things, that psychologically I knew this was all bullshit, but I needed like a reflection to help me like break the pattern of my own watcher. And I think at the highest level, when you can find these people that you really connect with in that way, you can correct these patterns and at the same time, recognize how hard it is to correct your own patterns. Like maybe we can lay down the venom stinger of judgment that we're trying to stick everybody with in society. Because as you said, understand that their watcher is tormenting them, is absolutely tormenting them. 

CAITLYN: Our watcher adopts the watchers that we allow to be in our space. So, for you and that girl, your watcher took on the qualities that she reflected to you about who you needed to be and that's why it stayed with you and we got hooked into relationships or familiar constructs and communities that may not be the most self loving. And so if we want a healthy, loving witness, healthy parent watcher, how we need to look at those relationships and really just at least draw a line in the sand of self love. My one commitment to myself is going to be ruthless self love through choosing wisely with who I'm going to be around until I can really hold myself and let that permission slip to everybody else around me.

ERICK: Yeah, the thing that arises for me that is interesting is like, the fourth quality of cultivating a community and you kind of touched on it a little bit, Caitlyn, which is being of service through your true expression, because when you do that, you put forth the best representation of the watcher that the people around you could begin to integrate. Like you've taught me just through your behavior that it's okay to use aggression for the good. I have a long history with how I grew up where any expression of aggression meant that I was just like my dad and that was never a good thing and that was a thing that haunted me for a long time. You taught me how to fucking express myself in a way where my vitality, my “sexual energy” can be in a room and that that'd be okay and that that's something that I repressed for a long time. And you taught me that it's okay to be a fucking savage and that was something that I knew in basketball, but basketball was the only place where I felt like I could express that. And when I got injured for 12 years, I watched my body deteriorate, like when I first came to Onnit, I was like a skeleton type thing. 

KYLE: Old videos of Godsey are like, who is that? You ate old Godsey and became new Godsey.

ERICK: And that's one of the beautiful things about community is that when you give people the permission to be their authentic self, their genius, their specific genius gets to emerge and it gets to act as a tuning, resonating fork for other people's watchers and it's easier to transform in community.

CAITLYN: I'm really glad you're here because you hold a tuning fork for truth that has really changed my life. So I just want to say that. 

AUBREY: And if we want to touch back on that ethos, I think the ethos gets really kind of simple when you want to talk about the ethos and the ethos is one of radical reverence for the divine being, whoever they are, like the being behind the actions that that being has taken, understanding all of these psychodynamics of the watcher and the judge and the way that they're being tormented. So it's an understanding of the reverence of the person that's underneath all of that. And then with that compassion, but it's not pitiful. I'm separate from you. Compassion. It's like, no, I'm with you in your suffering. I've been there. I know that part of me. I see that part of me. And I'm willing to feel that with you, you just for a moment to let you know that you're not alone and like, these are some of the key core elements of really what this is all about. Like, can you hold someone in reverence and are you willing to show them they're not alone by being with them in their suffering? To say like, no, no, me too. Like I am that too. What are you going through? What are you experiencing? What are you feeling? Me too. And then everybody's like, okay, cool. All right. Well, what do we want to do now? And then all of a sudden, like everybody snaps out of all these cycles and they're like, okay, well fuck, we're free now. Now let's play now. It's like create now, let's do awesome shit. 

KYLE: I think the first time I was in a group ceremony with ayahuasca, it amazed me how much in the sharing circle, every person's story applied to me in some way, every person's story lifted me in some way. And of course, over time with more and more group sessions, that really becomes something that's unshakable. And I remember going out to Paul Chek’s earlier this year for a painting workshop on mandalas. And he reiterated that he said, “all of you have come here this weekend because all of you share something in common with one another. So don't tune out when I take a deep dive into someone else's art that may look nothing like yours. Pay attention because something I say about them is gonna apply to you. We're all divine mirrors for one another.” And I was like “Oh, yeah, of course, life's a ceremony and and yeah, of course that applies to a fucking painting workshop.” And it for sure applies to Fit For Service. Whenever somebody comes, however long they stay, and whenever they go, they come at exactly the right moment with the exact right people to receive the exact medicine that they need. And whoever out there wants to form their own group, trust in the fact that whoever's decided to show up in that group, each of you is a mirror for one another. Each of you is experiencing something now or in the past or will very soon and can relate to each other in a way that really no one else can. 

ERICK: Yeah, the quote that comes up is, where two or more of me are gathered, there I am. Where two or more of you are gathered, there I am. And the thing– 

AUBREY: And that was coming from God. 

ERICK: Right. I think the fifth thing for building a community is commit to meet in person. Charles Eisenstein has this quote where he said that like gatherings or festivals are synchronicity amplifiers. Synchronicities are one of those things where I was a hardcore scientific atheist. You couldn't tell me shit about shit without me arguing with you about how it wasn't real. And the thing that cracked me open was synchronicities. And that there is something that happens when you gather in a group with the intention of doing truly anything, but ideally the intention would be radical reverence, tell the truth, be of service, express yourself. There's something that happens when you gather in person where there's this collective intelligence that begins to emerge that to try to talk away the miracles that you witness, it really is like gaslighting yourself. Like there's something about the felt sense of a synchronicity that if you bring skepticism to it, at least for me. It feels like I'm gaslighting myself and I just have chosen to stop doing that. 

AUBREY: So for people, we've talked a lot about the positive attributes. Let's talk about some of the ways that people can see some red flags because we deeply desire these things that we mentioned. And there's been people from the beginning of fucking time who have abused our own calling to be seen, to be loved, to be in community and abused it for their own personal gain and purposes. So let's take a moment to think about situations maybe that we've been involved in or just generalities in which there's some warning signs, some things to look out for and go for it. You go first. 

KYLE: No, you got more to explain. 

AUBREY: I was just going to say like one of the things, the first thing that comes to me is something that Paul Selig said about spiritual guidance and he says, he only has two rules. Paul Selig is one of the few channels that I actually think has a clear channel to the guides, like a real connection to something. And I would have never believed that was possible until I met Paul. And I always approached as skeptical and the guides are fucking on point. And what he says is says if anyone or any guidance or anything that's in person or in some other kind of channeled form is either creating more fear or inflating your ego, get the fuck out of there. And I see this so often with so many different types of leaders. They're either in some kind of doomsday situation creating fear. Well, that fear is one of the best ways to control somebody. And then the other way to control somebody is to inflate them is to really make them and give them some story. Like, I know certain psychics that tell everybody that they're the queen in the emperor of this fucking star nation and this fucking thing. And then it was like, they've probably told 14 people that they were Cleopatra in a past life. I don't know how many people can be Cleopatra, but not that many, probably one. I don't know. I don't know exactly how it works. The collective Cleopatra. But all of these things that you see are for me, I've used those two as like two bumpers that I can always anchor to is like, okay, is this creating more fear or is this inflating me in some way? Because both of those are fucking dangerous. 

ERICK: The thing for me that is really alive is, if the leader of the group or one of the collective ethos of the group fundamentally turns you away from your demon. If they seek to be the arbiter of your truth above your demon, like that inner whisper. Red flag. I will not be a part of it. And fundamentally, I think that one of the stickiest points in the “spiritual community” or the transformational community, are guides or channels or whatever you want to call them because they seek to be the demon for the other person. And if they're not impeccably clear, they're projecting their shit onto someone else in a type of container where the other person allows it to supersede their knowing. And that to me is absolutely a red flag. 

KYLE: I think that was coming up for me. I mean, shamanism and like we've heard Amber lion on Rogan and talk about some of her experiences. And I think anybody that first starts looking into plant medicines realizes there is a dark side because humans are fucking human.

AUBREY: There's a predatory universe everywhere. 

KYLE: Yeah, no doubt about it. But that's maybe on one end of the spectrum, sliding it back and bridging into what Godsey was just talking about. I remember there were circles that I was sitting in initially and early on where the maestros at the end would wait for someone and sometimes not wait for the person to finish saying their piece and closing ceremony and interrupt them to tell the group what that meant. And interrupt them to lay their interpretation of that person's experience down. And this doesn't just apply to plant medicines. It applies everywhere. If you're sharing and whoever's facilitating interrupts you or goes, that reminds me of X, Y, and Z of my own life. And this is how this applies to your story, because I know your story better than you do. Anytime that comes in, that is effectively robbing somebody of the full gift of what their interpretation is and what that will become. Because there's the story and the idea that the things that we learned through an experience initially and then that's what that blossoms into over time by continuing the investigation in the inner dialogue. But truthfully, whatever you're into, and it could be even something Western medicine style with a psychiatrist. They should be guiding you back to your own inner voice, guiding you back to your own inner intelligence. Because at the end of the day, we are the co authors of our own life. And without that, we just become an actor in a play. We have to take that back for ourselves. And this is one of the greatest lessons in the ceremony of this round for us is sovereignty. And that really comes back to how do I effectively become in charge of my own life and let go of the inner victim, which we all share. Caroline Mace is a universal archetype. How do we let go of that, learn from it and let go and move into a sovereign individual that can choose rightly what is the best decision for me and for the good of all.

AUBREY: Yeah, and go off what you were previously saying, if your spiritual leader is trying to fuck you. That's also a big red flag. I mean, how many of these fucking movements have been like, oh, that sounds pretty cool. Those are some pretty cool ideas. And then they tried to fuck everybody. 

KYLE: Yeah. Some high level dudes know, high level.

AUBREY: It's like over and over and over and over again. And I think obviously, I mean, it's an obvious one, but like be mindful because you're gonna be so open and vulnerable in the magnetism of anybody who accesses that spiritual mystery to a higher degree. The magnetism is gonna be strong, but if anybody takes that bait, that's the wrong fuck. Get the fuck out of there. It's not right. 

KYLE: Aleister Crowley went through how many cohorts? They kept coming to him because he was able to give them something no one else could. He wasn't a good looking dude. He was fucking hideous. But he was in some ways a dark Sith Lord of, of spirituality who could access things no one else could. And yet, the line was long to get in the door.

ERICK: Yeah. One of the things, or there's a couple of things to feel into. One is, leaders naturally emerge in community, period. I think having the ideological hope that there will be no leaders is naive. I haven't seen an example where that doesn't emerge.

And so if you're in a community and you're in a position where you are emerging as a leader, you have to do the self work to be able to hold complete power, because if you have complete power and you have any type of kinks and your desires, you can ruin the group. And I think one of the beautiful things about why Fit For Service has worked is you've done so much of the work before getting the power that this would allow you where you're like, I know what I do with complete power and it's worked. And so I'm thankful that you did all the sexting that you needed to do to get to the point where you could have all this power and that, we trust you, and that you've been impeccable with it, and it's felt by the people in the community. The other thing that–

AUBREY: Honestly, it's been something that's reflected to me more often, and it's always surprising. I just want to thank you so much for making me feel so safe. And the woman saying that, I'm like, “yes, of course. Obviously you're welcome.” But what happened? It's the deepest level of virtue that you have that somebody would abuse that. It's the sacred, like such an honor to be in that position and to abuse that is like, it's a real travesty when that happens. It's a real violation.

ERICK: That is a compliment that all three of the male coaches get from females in the group. And every time I get that compliment, it breaks my heart a little bit when I feel into receiving the presence of a woman as an individual and not a sexual object or experience. It breaks my heart to feel that just showing up to them like they're a person. First, is something worth them seeking me out afterwards and saying, thank you. The other point that I was going to share before that came up for me was, if there's a culture of line or gossip, that if there's an inability for the truth to be held by the container it's being poisoned.

KYLE: That's a great one. We have to bring that up if you're fucking open sourcing this, our sit downs as a group at the beginning of each year and as needed, where we have the airing of grievances and in the container that you put forward where all will be heard, all is acceptable is such a massive piece of this equation because gossip brews when you don't have an avenue to share the lies start and the backdoor conversations start when you don't have that container that openly welcomes it and says you have a voice and I want to hear it. And every turn you offer that, but not just along with the offering, you actually create a container where we sit down and maybe we do a little hop a or something like that to tune into co resonance, but then it's let it fucking out. Everyone gets the talking stick. Everyone's going to have a turn. And these are the things, these are the prompts I'll go first. And then we each get to really say what's on our mind and how we feel. 

AUBREY: Yeah, that's essential. 

CAITLYN: Yeah, I feel this is a huge one and one thing I was gonna say about red flags is just bad othering, period. If it's a collective, like us against them, that seems to be kind of a hallmark of the more common interpretation of cult, it's like we are either superior or they're bad. And that's the essence of gossip. It's like sort of there's degrees but it's kind of like– 

AUBREY: What's also the dark side of tribalism in general. It's like, we are this that is different from you. And I think a lot of different groups have put together ways in which we all wear the same color. Well, okay, cool. That can create some internal cohesion, but it's also psychologically going to be like, this is my team and everybody else who's not on this team is not me. So it closes the circle in a way that like, we're this and you're on the other side and it's reinforcing these things. So I'm not saying like, you can't wear fucking team colors or whatever. It's fine. Especially if you're playing basketball, it's helpful to have a jersey. I get it. But for most of these things, it's probably actually doing more harm than good because it's training you to think this is my people and these are the other people, which is the antithesis of what like what we're really going for, which is like, no, we're all one organism. And different cells of that organism. And so it's like, be mindful of those types of situations where it's like, this is us and this is them. 

CAITLYN: Yeah. 

ERICK: And the thing that that brings up for me that feels incredibly important, it's not necessarily a red flag, but it's like a maroon flag, it’s if the leaders of a group aren't explicitly aware and actively trying to navigate the evolutionary processes that want to think muddily, want to stay in biases and heuristics where fundamentally it starts to create an echo chamber that lacks epistemological humility, like if we believe we know. And we aren't willing to question all the things that we think that we know as a group consistently and intentionally, because it doesn't matter how dope the group is, if you don't have a space to question all of your “sacred cows”, the chances of you devolving into tribalism is almost guaranteed because it's woven into what got us through our evolutionary history to get to the point where we can talk and record shit. 

CAITLYN: I would say, to add to that, I think that one's very important. And also, we talk about on the light side, offering permission and connecting to what Kyle shared, asking for permission are the people who are cultivating this space, not only inviting you and giving you permission to do something, but also having a dialogue with you about whether you want to do it and offering the permission to go at your own pace. And to decline if you're not ready. And really fostering that mutual permission that's actually a conversation and not an imposition of pressure. And also, this one's really a little bit more tricky because we talked about how the body can kind of be deceptive and it's guarding. But ultimately we all have this super sentient capacity for feeling what is good for us. And there is a gut feeling and there is a sense of relaxation, expansion. There may be fear, there may be timidity or trepidation about something unfamiliar or meeting new people. If you put yourself in that space to get to connect with people, you have a tuning fork inside of you that's going to go like, I am not comfortable. And this is not okay. Or that was scary, but this feels really, really good. And I'm going to take the next step. And I'm going to take the next step. So like being in that conversation with your intuitive guidance when you're stepping into community and if you're feeling fear or discomfort, is it a safe place where you can just voice that and say, I'm feeling kind of off, I'm feeling afraid, I don't want to do it, how does the community receive you in that and allowing the community space to be a place where you actually flex that muscle of using your own intuitive compass and and develop it more rather than losing it in the in the group. 

AUBREY: I think another thing that's worth mentioning is, if you're ready to go and the group is like no you have to stay or uses leverage to keep you, wrong fucking group. Get the fuck out. It doesn't matter. If you're ready to go, beautiful. We'll offer refunds to anybody up to the point they're there and say, like, alright, cool, you didn't make it, here's all the rest of your money back for the rest of the time we have, whether it's nine weeks and they're four weeks in, and they're like, alright, well, fuck, here's your money back for the time you've had, and if they fuss about it, and like, “I want all my money.” Sure, okay, good, we wish you the best. Go live your life, we trust you. If this is not for you, we trust you. That's fine but so many of these other situations you see, and there's this intense pressure. I watched that fucking Scientology documentary, and I was like, holy shit.

KYLE: Was that on HBO? 

AUBREY: It's on HBO? Fuckin A, man. So they do a couple things. One, they have this coming clear vulnerability thing where you share all the things that create tension in your body. But then they record it, and then they use it as blackmail against you later as you're coming clear and like confessing, it would be like if the priest that you were confessing to, then all of a sudden was like taking notes or had like a little tape recorder and was like, I'm not really feeling the church anymore. And they're like, but what about this?

KYLE: Goat fucker. 

AUBREY: Exactly, fucking crazy. And then, if they tried to leave, there would be people that would be, pressuring them to come back. I mean, this is just a movie, and I don't know the truth of the truth. From what I saw in that fucking documentary, it was called Coming Clear, I was like, holy shit, this is dark.

ERICK: It's based off really good investigative journalism, and it's probably true. And the thing that I feel into is, anyone who is a therapist, or a psychotherapist, or a psychiatrist, or a “healer”, or whatever, if their primary goal is not to get you to never need them again, I think that they're in that devouring parent archetype in the same way that if your parent is not actively seeking to be such a good parent that you never need them as a parent again, they're fundamentally sinning in the way where they're missing the mark. And our goal for Fit For Service and we say at every single event is, we want you to get to the point where you do not need us and you go do this where you live. This will not work if you only feel the heat of the fire when you come here. This will work if you put in your stick and bring your fire back where you're going and then spread it there. That it's the only way that it works. And so we are seeking to do such a good job where people don't come back.

AUBREY: And it doesn't mean that they may not want to dive back in and come experience the initiations and the new awesome shit that we're doing, but they don't need to. And I think that's a big distinction between want and need because we have some awesome shit, especially this year, and I think it's worth talking about. This year we're offering way more than we did before. So we got a couple of different programs and I'll let you start first. Cause yours is fucking first up– 

KYLE: The world's first, first, first, first, first ever. First ever immersive with my brother, Eric Godsey. We were in Sedona and you started proposing some of the different things that we were going to change going forward next year and it just hit us all. I mean, I can speak for myself, but it was like the fucking biggest blast of novelty wave that I felt where I was like lit on fire. And it was almost to the point where I didn't realize, was I coasting for a minute there? I don't think I was coasting. Cause I was still bringing the sauce and we teach what's alive in us.  So it's not like I'm rehashing shit that I don't want to go over, but now we had this opportunity for something brand new. And we were doing a soul wander on the land with Miss Anahata Ananda, one of our dear medicine women. And I went and chickened out of it and I camped out next to your natural water pond. And I was like, she said, connect to the elements and water's calling me. So I just laid down and I could hear the trickle of the stream going by my head and it just started flooding in everything that I've taught for the last three years and done by myself at different periods of time, I've never actually done that, experience that with a group and I've never actually connected all of those dots in the same moments on a daily five days straight. And so as I really started thinking about that, I was like, well, I've been teaching people about fasting and intermittent fasting and fasting, mimicking diet, and I've done it all. What if we gave that to him? What if we had 30 fucking people? All fast together and each day while we're fasting, they're getting a crash course on the body as a tuning fork from myself on the mind and the psyche, journaling and rewriting your life going forward from Godsey, also breaking down dream analysis for the very first time Godsey is going to be doing daily dream analysis. And even though she's not going to be there, we're going to be working with Ziva Meditation and Emily Fletcher, and we're going to have a two week course that gives people access indefinitely. So they're going to ramp up for two weeks leading up to the event with twice a day daily meditation practice that literally changed my life. Her meditation practice, I put as important as ayahuasca, for me. And that many people may not have experienced ayahuasca, but if you've heard me on a podcast I hold Aya with the most reverence. So that meditation practice, and I've tried all sorts of shit binaural beats, everything. So like to be able to have access to that and then drop into that twice a day with each other to go from a fucking blazing hot sauna and then run and jump into an ice cold, frigid Texas pond, late January. And then to start our practices from there every single day together, there's nothing like it truly. Like I could really feel that how much, number one, I needed. And number two, how cool that is to actually go through that. And we have events with 150, 200, 300 people. There's a lot of people and there's only so much time people have with the coaches. And I think one of the things that some of the members have really been asking for is more time with us. You're going to live. Every full fucking days with me and Eric, where they really get to pick our brain and really get to have every single question answered on anything. And then at the end of this, we're going to have a sound healing ceremony, that's just going to blow everyone's fucking mind. And we've got blood work at the beginning through way too well, every medical question will be answered, supplements, medications, anything someone needs that I can't really service. They're going to have that service from some of the best nurse practitioners on the planet. And we're going to get to see how did eating like shit, I'm fucking all November and December affect my health internally. And then from there, we can have blood work done after the fact. And one of the beautiful things about the fasting mimicking diet is that this shit changes you internally for months. We will see a benefit to many markers for metabolic flexibility or inflexibility inflammation, all sorts of things that are precursors towards disease. We get to see all of that unraveled for us in one of the coolest ways where we get to back things with data points internally that we're not going to hit. And then we get to experience all of the shit you can't quantify. What does it actually feel like to meditate every day, twice a day? What does it actually feel like to start a day with a sauna and a nice bath and move from there? What does it actually feel like to get incredibly clear on what it is that you're cultivating and write it out and become masters of that?

ERICK: The thing that feels alive for me. And like the fundamental thing that we found is we got so good at doing these large events where we almost filtered ourselves out as coaches because we found ecstatic dance, breathwork, these types of group experiences where we're bringing in experts doing super dope things. We, as coaches, started doing much less and we've got a bunch of stuff that we know that we can share and the members are also asking for more time from us. Our events are packed and people are getting as much as they can hold and–

AUBREY: And also the amount of master coaches we're bringing in. For the core event, we have Jamie Wheal and Emily Fletcher and then Lukis Mac and Hella Westan and then Blu and Jaggers. And we're there and we're doing our thing too. So it's just this like fucking Avengers lineup of people there. So these smaller ones give us a chance to dive in on something specific, which is cool. That was exciting for us to think about while we're going to keep doing these fucking amazing transformational initiatory experiences, condensing them slightly down from four months to nine weeks, just because we actually saw that the pattern of behavior was building of energy up to the summit. And then that was the peak. And then there was this kind of downslope at the end through all of the integration. So offering the master classes on the front end and all the integration calls and the small group calls that we all do, but condensing it a little bit. So people know exactly like, all right, here's the time to a lot for this. And then here's the container. And that gives more space for these, if people are interested to go dive into these other little immersives too. So I think that's something that we're all really excited about. And it is possible. This podcast is releasing January 5th. It's possible that we just gave people the biggest bummer ever, because it's already going to be sold out by then, but if it is we’ll run it back.

KYLE: I'm confident that this will sell out. And I'm confident that when we offer this later on in the year, that that too is going to sell out. And I think this is an immersive that I would be happy to do twice a year. Some of the guys, I know Dr. Peter Attia, a lot of people that understand the science of this stuff. And just the fasting alone, they're going to participate in that quarterly or twice a year, right? Our buddy, Ben Greenfield, does a lot of things I got and he's a bit more hardcore. He's doing water fast, this fasting mimicking diet. We get a thousand calorie shakes every take. 

AUBREY: He’s doing something right. Cause he looks like he's 14. 

KYLE: He does look like he's 14. He's a fucking perfect, handsome little boy with jacked arms, crazy endurance. But yeah thinking about that, what is the thing that I want to do? When I worked with you here at Onnit in product development, everything that came to be before I was here. And then once I got here was birthed out of a fucking true need to create something super dope. Like what is the product that needs to come out now? Before I got, I was fucking slamming a new mood. Just because it worked. And that was born as roll on roll off because of the necessary needs of the Molly to come down. So this immersive and the immersive that we're putting together really comes from a combination of what is this self need and what is the self want to experience. And then checking, does that reverberate with the rest of you guys? I remember telling you about this in Sedona and you were just like, fuck yeah, I want to be a part of that. And guys was like, fuck yeah, I want to be a part of that now. 

ERICK: As soon as he told me, I was like, I'm going, I will figure out a way to help.

AUBREY: One of the hardest things in the world to do, especially if you're in a partnership, is to go on a fast while your partner's not fasting. 

KYLE: While you gotta cook for your fucking kids? And then taste to see how hot it is? 

AUBREY: For sure. 

KYLE: I’m gonna taste your food, but I won't swallow it.

AUBREY: I can't tell you how many fasts have been ruined because like, somebody's like, “do you mind if I eat?” And I'm like, “no, of course not, sweetheart. Just eat.” And then I'm just watching him and I'm like, Fuck it. 

KYLE: Your nose is like 10 times better, 10x better minimum than it normally is. I remember doing a water fast, the hardest water fast I ever did. I was still working at the strip club and I could smell an unopened bag of Doritos. Oh, Caty, you can fucking stuff money in my thong anytime you want. I could smell an unopened bag amongst all the other smells in a strip club. I could smell an unopened bag of Doritos in the bag, in an outfit bag, in the locker room for the women's locker. And I was like, “who's got Doritos?” It was fucking bananas. It was next level Superman shit. I was like, I really need to fucking eat. And then of course, I just pounded more water and stuffed my feelings down, and let it happen. But this is a lot easier than that. And just as we've been speaking about to go through these things together with other people. The fast in and of itself is a fucking pressure cooker. We're going to be peeling layers of the onion back. We're going to see what's going to come up for people. Burning man in and of itself is a challenge just to be there from the weather, the hot, the cold. 

CAITLYN: You’re fasting cause you're too busy to eat.

KYLE: Too busy. That's it. 

ERICK: I was thinking the same thing. 

CAITLYN: So busy. 

KYLE: But you know what happens when you're at Burning Man? Shit comes up. They're like, expect to lose your shit at least once. And it doesn't need to be your first time. It could be your 10th burn. Expect to lose your shit effectively. And that may be screaming. That may be fucking crying and sobbing. It may be fucking anything. 

AUBREY: Wandering the desert, like Mad Max for the tribe. 

CAITLYN: Every time you're going to get lost. There's a metaphor in there.

KYLE: So I know that the fast alone is going to be that core piece for the body and the body is a tuning fork. And when we were thinking of titles for this, it was like, well, the body is the temple and we have this temple of body. We have a temple of mind and psyche and we have a temple of spirit and we're going to hit as best we can. The practices for all three of those inside five days, then feast our first meal, first real food in five days together to ground that experience. And of course we'll have integrative coaching calls one-on-one afterwards for the following weeks that I go after that. But it will sell out. 

AUBREY: Hell of a way to start the year. 

CAITLYN: And for people listening who don't make it in time before it sells out, we're gonna be approaching the body in the same sort of reverent way with our core summit program. It's gonna be really about tapping that, the divine potential in our universe and the physical universe.

AUBREY: Which also might sell out. So we may be really fucking all up right here, but it's just in case. But this is generally the ID, even if these are sold, but check it out. It's all at Fitforservice.com. But either way, there will be openings. There will be opportunities. What we're doing is expanding the opportunity for more people to get access to different things that may speak to them on different levels. And the other immersive program that we have is, one thing that we've realized, especially with Vylana and I coming into union the way we have, is so many people who are curious about how to get to the point where they find their sacred union, they find their divine partner. And it's a very interesting world that we're in this new dating world that we're in. And also, as people go through this evolution of consciousness, how to find people of similar resonance is this constant issue that we get on every live, every call, all of the different things. And whenever we talk about it, there's a lot of interest generated. So like, all right, fuck it. We'll go straight at it. So Vylana and myself partnering up with Matthew Hussey, who's like one of the OG geniuses of this whole field. I really deeply respect everything he has to say about attraction, manifestation, dating, the whole process, discernment about whether the person you're with is the right person or not, and discernment in the choices about who you spend your time with. And of course, Vylana and I have, we've had a long journey that we're bringing in Rebecca Boatman. Who's also an expert dating coach and really focuses on how to take these things that you learn into practice out in the real world. So some real world challenges. So we're going to go through this with a group of unpartnered people. You don't have to be necessarily single, but people who are looking to call in another partnership. And so single ish, I would say, and really go through all of the different techniques, practices. It's called the road to union. Everything from discernment, manifestation, attraction and dating, and it's ultimately going to lead to a mock date on Valentine's day, where we actually coach everybody on how to have the most awesome date possible and just pick someone in the group. Now, you may actually find that fucking incredible person at this summit, because there's going to be an equal number of single men and single women. And obviously, this is going to attract a lot of people who are interested in doing that deep work and interested in kind of becoming self aware in that way. And one of the interesting things about our community is there are enough men to actually pull this off. Like most of the communities out there that you see are mostly like, very women dominant, everything from Joe Dispenza to a lot of these. So we have some amazing dudes in this and also of course, amazing women. So we're going to go and have that immersive February 12th, 13th, 14th. Again, I don't know if that's going to sell out or not, but these are just examples of some of the themes of like, all right, let's take this thing and go over everything from philosophy to science. The science of histocompatibility is something that I think people are really sleeping on. This idea that someone's scent is actually signaling to us whether they're a DNA match. And we can try to think with our mind all the way through, all of the reasons why someone's attractive or not attractive. But if the smell is off, we're going to be fighting an uphill battle. And actually how that smell will shift, whether the woman is on birth control or not, it'll actually flip. So a lot of these things that Wednesday Martin is showing in the aggregate sexuality drops off a steep cliff for women, after a certain number of years. Well, one of the conflating variables is usually oftentimes, at least in the aggregate, when you're looking at mass numbers of woman is on birth control leading up to marriage, and then it's time to have kids, a couple of years in, and then they get off birth control and all of a sudden their histocompatibility flips, which is a very strange phenomenon. And they're no longer attracted to their partner. So going through everything from a scientific perspective to a psychological perspective to just really learning how to interact and discern, and also understanding what our trauma bonding patterns are, the ways in which we seek redemption, like my story about my college girlfriend, like becoming aware of these traps that you might be finding yourself in, how you're trying to redeem yourself through. A redeem a relationship with a parent or something else that's happening that you're not aware of that's driving you into the same type of relationship over and over again and try to break those patterns. So it puts you in the best odds percentage chance to really navigate towards a really beautiful union. Also like awareness of all dating app culture and things. It's a wild, interesting world, so we're going to go right into it. 

ERICK: And the goal by the end of the year is we're going to have the three core summits like we normally do, but we're looking at 8 to 10 immersive sprinkles throughout the year. Caitlyn's going to lead some dope shit. I'm going to lead some dope shit. We're going to bring in other incredible coaches and facilitators that we trust who have very specific medicine that doesn't fit into the container of the course. And so there's going to be a lot of dope shit and I'm really excited for 2022. 

CAITLYN: Me too.

AUBREY: Yeah, me too. It's going to be fun. I fucking love you guys.

CAITLYN: I love you. 

AUBREY: Thanks for being on this journey. Thanks for being the people that I would show my darkest, dustiest, dankest journal to. I have. There is a great liberation in what I've found is, you're actually pretty safe sharing that with everyone. You know what I mean? And I get as close as possible that in my whole darkness documentary is like one giant journal episode of me going through the most brutal transformational ceremony in the dark with my tape recorder and sharing it. And there's a little moment of like, whoa, that's a lot. That's a lot of ugly cries and a lot of deep shit. But the reception is always kinder and more loving than you think it will be. Like, the world is so much nicer than your watcher, than your judge. 

CAITLYN: Yeah, sometimes a stranger's easier to show it to. 

AUBREY: It's a really interesting phenomenon. Like, the more you step into your vulnerability, the more you'll actually be a magnet to the right type of people.

CAITLYN: Yep. 

ERICK: And the thing that you said that I think maybe people would pass over is that the hallmark of everything that we just shared is like the ultimate goal of community is to get everyone to the point where they can share their deepest truth with everyone. 

CAITLYN: And where they can be okay with it themselves. 

AUBREY: Which is the prerequisite.

ERICK: 'Cause you're a part of everyone. 

AUBREY: That's a prerequisite. 

ERICK: I love y'all. 

AUBREY: All right, so much love. Look forward to seeing some of y'all this next year and seeing y'all every fucking day pretty much was great. Or done a life, what a life.