This conversation with Charles Eisenstein, author of Sacred Economics, changed the course of how I will do business forever. Instead of obscured financial mechanisms and win/lose metrics, the model of the More Beautiful World is based on voluntary reciprocity and complete transparency. Our conversation covers many of the aspects of economics in this protopian future, including the differentiation between Crypto and Central Bank Digital Currency. This episode is the second of a sneak peak of 8 conversations available only to Arkadia attendees. If you want to hear the rest of the series which tackles 7 more domains of society, they are available to Arkadia attendees and will be uploaded to our premium podcast channel on supercast after the event. We’re only selling 1000 tickets, so if you want to be a part of the Arkadia revolution, apply here.

Charles Eisenstein's newest book, The Coronation, will be released in July of 2022.  It is available for pre-order here

AUBREY: Charles Eisenstein, my brother, good to see you. 

CHARLES: Yep. Good to be back with you, Aubrey.

AUBREY: Yeah, for sure. So, this whole festival that we're throwing, Arkadia. Arkadia was another name for a kind of second Eden. And we're really using it to mean the more beautiful world our hearts know as possible, which of course is the name of your incredible book that we've podcasted about and talked about. And the idea is to create, also your language, an Island of Sanity, a place where people can gather together and find those magical synchronicities and anchor the kind of spirit of the more beautiful world. And so, obviously, you could talk about every aspect of the more beautiful world as you really did in your book. But today, I was hoping we could just talk about how one of the fundamental structures of this world is how we exchange goods and services, and how this whole thing works, which of course, right now, is mediated by cash money, but of course in the more beautiful world, it could have a more beautiful solution. And so that's what I was hoping to talk with you about today.

CHARLES: Yeah, I think that's as good an entry point as any, to whatever wants to be said through us. Yeah, first I'll say, the Island of Sanity, I'm feeling really good anticipation for this festival. The water rises from many springs. I have the feeling that the water table is rising, and springs that have been dry are starting to gush forth. People who had been maybe immersed in the matrix are awakening, and something else is coming through them. And events like this are starting to happen. And I just intuitively, not that everything is perfect, whatever, but that spirit is the fountainhead of the event. So, I'm looking forward to it, and I'm happy to invoke that in our conversation today. So, as far as economics, I think, just to start with the way that you introduced it, about how we conduct transactions, how we provide goods and services, beneath. So, the core of what I call sacred economics, it's not the transaction. It's something underlying that, which is the gift. In traditional societies, but even in our own lives, to some extent, yeah, there's exchange in some relationships. But there's also relationships where, I mean, you could look at it through the lens of exchange and some anthropologists do with transactions. But really, the way it's experienced is, I'm giving or receiving. And it may not be that I've received from the same person to whom I give, or it might be that I give to somebody and receive something very, very different. Like the relationship between a child and a grandparent. A grandparent is going to be giving a lot to the child. And what the child gives back to the grandparent, it's not something very tangible. But in fact, maybe it's the child's parents or the society as a whole, who is giving to the grandparent in "exchange" for what the grandparent did for the community when they were in the prime of life. So, I guess, I want to really come to sanity. We have to, I'm not saying transcend the mentality of transaction or exchange, but what I would say is hold that as part of a much bigger picture. And especially at a festival, I hope I'm not talking too long, but at a festival, what a festival actually is. It's a special time and place that is separated off from normal life and normal society, in which certain conventions are suspended. And you're therefore free to experience and express different parts of yourself, then are available in normal day to day life. So at a festival, it's a really beautiful moment to experiment. And Burning Man does this really well, of course. But to experiment with, yeah, how about we operate in another paradigm besides the exchange? Not that exchange isn't beautiful and sacred, but here's a different container.

AUBREY: It's amazing what that does to the individual, when you experience something that goes against the convention of the norm, which is, even if you give something to someone, typically you're receiving the wow, the graciousness, the thank you, and you get this immediate feeling. And I remember at Burning Man, we rolled up in our bikes, and it was this music camp, and we all got out. And we were just dancing our hearts out, just really like giving everything we could. And we could feel the energy of the dance area that we were in. There's no dance floor, it's all playa. But you'd feel the energy really like buzzing from our just heart pouring, sweat pouring energy. And we had all of our coats in a pile. So we finished, we expelled our energy, the music kind of shifted. We took all of the coats out and somebody had gifted like three quarters of a handle of Jim Beam, right? Which is not like a big deal. But it was kind of a big deal. We didn't have a bunch of alcohol with us or anything like that. And someone just slid it underneath our pile. We had no idea who it was. And we all knew, oh wow, this was just a gift from some random person that we'll never know, in appreciation of our general energy that we offered to the vicinity. And that one moment, I've never forgotten it, and it's shifted something. Hell, it's $14 of, I don't know, not probably the best bourbon in the world, it's $14 of this thing. But it made an impact, like very few gifts ever have because of the nature of it. And so, that concept has really stuck with me, and I think it speaks to what you're talking about.

CHARLES: Yeah, yeah. There is always some kind of a return on some level. So, when you gift, say to a friend, you give something to a friend, it's not that mysterious how the return happens. Like, it's your birthday present, Aubrey and then on my birthday, you're probably going to give me a present. Or other people might see me give you a present, and they might give me a present. Or in a community, someone might witness me doing something kind to somebody in the community, and then they're going to want to do something kind for me next year. But there's a mysterious element too where you're giving into the beyond. You're giving into the mystery, you're putting that bottle of Jim Beam under the coats. And then, it’s like, are you being witnessed? It seems like you're not being witnessed. But actually, traditional cultures understood that we are always being witnessed, and that everything we put into the world enters the community of being and comes back to us, because we're not really separate from the community of being. So, this is what people experience at Burning Man all the time. These marvelous synchronicities. The more you let go of trying to control the outcome, the more magnificent the outcome becomes. Not always easy, not always what you were hoping and expecting. But so often it's beyond what you're expecting, and you realize that your very expectations and hopes were limiting the range of your experience. And I don't know, if people are listening who are going to come to Arkadia, I'd love to kind of see that, to come with that openness to the mystery of giving and receiving, and of the synchronicities that align themselves when we let go of controlling outcomes and controlling the return.

AUBREY: Yeah, so, I have to make an acknowledgement that I'm certainly not proud of, but also haven't done anything to change. I'm like one of those statistics of people who don't know their neighbors. I don't know what the statistics are, but some high percentage of people don't know the names of any of their neighbors. And I'm actually one of those people. I used to know a neighbor, because they had a very funny last name, and they were particularly friendly, and we got to know each other. But now they moved out, and I don't know the new people. I wave to everybody. Obviously, I know I can recognize them and their dogs, but I don't know them. But I wonder even in this scenario where we don't really know each other that well, obviously, we could do the traditional thing, which is invite them over, we could have a barbecue. But what would happen if all of a sudden we just went on a campaign where we just put random gifts from, and we have a little gated community. And if we just put little gifts from, talk about it like I won't say the name of my neighborhood, but Swirling Brookeast, from your neighbors, it's Swirling Brookeast, and it was just a nice thing. I wonder how the neighborhood would start to think about neighbors in a different way. It feels like if that momentum was started, that our little community, even if we didn't know each other that well, we probably would start to want to and that mystery of it, and that kind of idea of wow, the neighbors are kind of starting to take care of it. It might really catch, just as a thought experiment.

CHARLES: Maybe. Yeah, I mean, it would be an interesting culture hack. It could also be one of those things that makes a little ripple that just dies out again, simply because, I mean, there's a reason why no one knows their neighbors in a neighborhood like yours. I mean, I've been to your neighborhood. It's not the kind of place where you're seeing a lot of neighborhood cookouts, and street hockey and stuff.

AUBREY: No. 

CHARLES: And the reason that people, I mean this is true, even of less affluent neighborhoods. The reason that people don't know each other is that they don't need each other. Because everybody is sourcing everything they need, at least as far as they know. Let's not talk about emotional and spiritual needs now. But they're sourcing everything they need from, through technology and through the market. So, you can get together with your neighbors, you could make that effort. But underneath it, there's, “why are we really doing this? I don't need you for anything.” Now, imagine if you're living in a village, and everybody's growing food and sharing it, and the kids are all playing together and running around outside together. And the only entertainment available, the only music available is what you make yourselves in a group, then you're going to know everybody really well. 

AUBREY: Sure.

CHARLES: Because another thing, to know somebody, you cannot just consume together. That doesn't bring out your character. If you're creating together, if you're struggling together, if you're on a sports team together even, or a theater troupe, or you're surviving together, then that brings out qualities of the real human being. If you're just consuming together, you can say anything and put on any fake persona, and it'll fly by the radar, because who cares? Speaking of unmet needs, like one of our deep unmet needs is the need to belong. We actually have a need to know people around us and know their stories, and to be anchored to a place. A place is not just a physical landscape. It's a social landscape. And, we're missing that so much. That's an endless source of misery and addiction. And again, like one reason, just to bring the festival back. One reason that transformational festivals are so powerful is that they, at least temporarily, offer some sense of belonging, some sense of place, and some sense of co-creation. It's not quite just going to a performance and consuming the festival. Just even by the way you dress, you're helping to decorate it. You're helping to contribute to the suspension of normality that defines the festival. And so, it's a little window of a more beautiful world, of a co-creative world, where joy and fun have a much higher priority than they do normally in our society.

AUBREY: Yeah, I think that was the impetus for the gift of the Jim Beam under the coats, is that we were contributing to that particular music stage by our dancing. That made the festival that was, yes, we were consuming the music, you could say, but also contributing, and in full reciprocity back to that whole environment by that. And so, that was surely the impetus of the gift. And that's the opportunity at all of these festivals. And I love how you bring that, the costuming and your energy that you're bringing, and also what you were previously saying, it reminds me, you were privy to a very unique event that we had at Fit For Service. We called it the Elemental Games, where we had five factions representing the five elements. And we actually went into contests with each other some form of Greco-Roman sumo wrestling, or ball throwing, or mace holding, or a variety of different things, or dance off or all of these different things. But what's interesting is, out of all of the summits that we've had, that actually bonded us closer with each other, and also with the people we competed against, probably more than anything. And we've done some really powerful things. We've breathed together, we've gotten themis skull together, all of this is really effective. And I think one of the reasons why Fit For Service creates such a strong community is we do challenging things together and contribute to each other's help each other go through challenging times. But that one thing actually stands out to me as the most powerful way in which, it was our dancing, it was our contribution where everybody had to bring from their costuming, to their contribution of energy, to their spirit of competition, to their dance, to all of it, to actually make this thing real, to make it feel like a real set of games. Everybody co-created and contributed. And there was ecstasy. There was an ecstasy that permutated the whole summit that time. And so, that is like a really good thing to keep in mind is that when you're building something like that together and competing and doing all of these things, but in the virtuous way, not in the win loss zero sum way, but competing to create something that's more beautiful, it's just really powerful.

CHARLES: Yeah, I mean, so interesting you're bringing up competition, which is one of the defining features of economics as we know it, whereas it's taught to us. And it got me thinking about the deeper purpose or like the true purpose, or a true purpose of competition. Because we tend to think of it so much in terms of domination, and division, and so forth. But really, one thing that competition has been in my life was an opportunity to refine my gifts, and to know my capacities, and to know my shortcomings, because they wouldn't otherwise be visible. And also to know what I'm here for. I like to go back to my days as an athlete. Originally, I think, I'm fast. So I'm like, yeah, I'm going to be a sprinter. I'm going to be a sprinter. Well, competition disabused me of that notion, and it showed me that what I'm actually good at, which was distance running, like middle-distance distance. And if I had tried to throw the discus or something like that, no matter how hard I worked at it, like we're different. Human beings are different. I would never have thrown as far as Jay Kislak. No matter how hard he trained, he would never beat me in a mile. No way. And so, competition, but then competing against people who are also good at what you're good at, then it brings out part of you that is a kind of a training for life. Because ultimately, and this is one thing I was thinking about when I spoke at that Fit For Service event. I was like, okay, this is fun and everything, but why are we doing this? And at first, I was maybe feeling a little cynical about it. But I asked that question with curiosity. Why are you guys doing this? And it's like, oh, yeah, this is a practice. A practice for life really. 

AUBREY: Yeah. 

CHARLES: Yeah, it doesn't matter, Team Red or Team Blue, which one of them wins the competition. But it's preparing us, preparing people to exercise that same capacity in something that really matters in the world. And, yeah, I mean, I could probably bridge this to economics. I mean, I guess that's actually standard economic theory. In a healthy market, that's not distorted, which is already asking a lot, the best product wins. The one that serves the public's needs the most will be chosen, and it will prevail, and we'll have more of the things that are well made, and serve health and wellbeing. And okay, we obviously see that there's a lot of problems today, where products that are harming ourselves, harming the environment, are very, very successful. And  I mean, I could go into the economics of all that. But I guess I just want to affirm, like before we throw the baby out with the bathwater, competition can have a bad name these days. All things have their purpose.

AUBREY: Yeah, it seems like there's virtuous levels of competition, which are actually inspiring the greatness out of both participants in a way. And I think of it like debate. Like you imagine a good debate where two people are really on the virtuous side of it, where they're really trying to explore and contest these different ideas. And you just see them in my mind being, that's a great point, I respect that opinion. However, let me counter with this, have you thought about it this way? And then the other person is like, “uh-huh, I hadn't thought about it this way.” But the issue I see with that is this, and then they're going back and forth. And at the end, something greater is created. A greater understanding, something greater. And then you contrast that with our political debates, which is like, how much shit can you talk about the other person? So, you're actually just degrading each other until the person who wins is the one who's the least degraded. And that can be obviously beyond debates, it can be with products, it can be with services. It's like there's the virtuous side, and then there's the degraded side, right?

CHARLES: Yeah, so in a good debate, both parties are actually serving something besides defeating the other one. They're serving the truth. And if you want to just win the debate, then you can say any kind of unfair thing, like jump on somebody's slip of tongue, try to make them look bad. And yeah, I've won the debate. But, we recognize and are repelled by that kind of viciousness, which like you said, it's rife in our politics. And competition too, to invoke the Greek ideal, the purpose isn't to defeat the opponent. It is to achieve something that might involve defeating your opponent. But the Greeks would have said, it's some form of beauty. And I'm going to, I don't know, I'm not sure, it might be a little bit of a stretch. 

AUBREY: It's in service of arte, of greatness itself. Again, it's in service to that, that higher, greater thing. And I think economics can be that. How can we create something that's in greatest service to the society at large, so the world at large? Like, how can we serve something that's higher in our own way? And that's, I think, the virtuous level of competition in economics.

CHARLES: Right. Because if your goal is to win, then you might as well cheat.

AUBREY: Right. Which is what we see now. Win at all costs, versus a bigger perspective of winning. Let's shift gears real quick, because I want to talk about the difference between, it feels like we have a divergence of courses. There's two different options that are kind of on the table right now. One is decentralized cryptocurrency. The other is central bank digital currency. Both are a new way to affect transactions and have a monetary vehicle. Just in your mind, what are the differences? Obviously, some of them might be self-evident, but what are your thoughts when I mention those two different pathways?

CHARLES: Yeah. So, my first thought is, how conversant are the listeners in even what these things are? Some people are probably deep down the rabbit hole, and other people are like, “What?”

AUBREY: Sure. 

CHARLES: I feel like we've probably, I'll just give a really brief summary of what. So, central bank digital currency is electronic money. Now, like you say, but hold on, money's already electronic. I mean, except for cash, most of my transactions are already done electronically, and tracked by the financial system, and by the government. There's a record of every transaction, what's the big deal? And what's the difference? The difference is, that if we use a central bank digital currency, then we do not need to go through banks, or credit cards, or debit cards, because everybody has an account with the central bank, with the Federal Reserve. Today, only banks and financial institutions have accounts at the Federal Reserve. So, basically, it's like everybody can do what only banks can do right now. And that seems like, I mean, you would have no more credit card fees, it would make transactions a lot cheaper and more efficient. There's a lot of good technical reasons to have central bank digital currencies. But there's danger too, and it's called programmable money. So basically, you could say we have food shortages. Well, you could have rationing built into the money system, where you're only allowed to spend a certain amount of money on food, or only allowed to buy a certain amount of gas to fight global warming. Or, if you have, say you're a spreader of disinformation, your access to funds, the ability to create transactions could be curtailed. If you have an alternative, like for example, cash, which is a central bank currency, you don't need a bank to use cash. Or you still have banks and you still have other kinds of money, then it's maybe not so terrible if the Federal Reserve cuts off your central bank digital currency. But the real danger is that these become exclusive, and that you have no choice. And that therefore, your entire economic life is subjected to essentially censorship, to a kill switch. So, it's part of a program of social control that would install a kill switch on your automobile as well. And maybe even your front door, and your internet connection, all contingent on your good behavior as defined by the authorities. So, if we had a fully enlightened government that really embodied the will and aspirations and conscious evolution of the entire people, maybe it would be a good thing. But obviously, we don't have that. In fact, it would be more the opposite. So, in this context, central bank digital currencies I think are really dangerous. So the alternative, like a lot of these problems with our current system of exchange, can also be solved by decentralized digital currencies. For example, Bitcoin's actually a bad example. But maybe some of the things built on Bitcoin and then some of the other cryptocurrencies allow instantaneous, almost zero cost transactions across the world. So, it solves some of these technical problems, like second and third generation cryptos, they've solved a lot of these problems. But oh, gosh, this is going to get even more involved if I'm not careful. There's the question. So, there's this kind of naïve ideal of decentralization, which says that we can avoid the messy politics of human decision making by exporting onto an algorithm, monetary policy. And that kind of sidesteps what is one of the fundamental questions of our time, which is how do we make decisions together? How do we come to an agreement? How do we implement our, like come to collective choices and implement them so that we create together? How do we come into coherence? So, what I'm really interested in, it's not decentralization, it's not centralized digital currencies, but it's something, a third thing, where we develop new ways of decision making. And some of the crypto projects are really, it's the governance, their governance issue. They're really developing innovative ways of, I mean, you could call it monetary policy, but of deciding how much currency should be issued, and to whom, and how. Because money is never value neutral. It's always connected to political and social authority, always has been, even in the days of gold and silver. So, I think we need to embrace that truth, that the creation of money is a sacred function, and return it to that. But anyway, that's like a little snippet of my thoughts on. I wrote an article about it a month or two ago. But yeah, I mean, this gets really detailed. We could have a week-long conference on this topic.

AUBREY: Well, I appreciate how you actually broke it down and gave a good foothold for us to understand both different sides. And then the possible third way. I think one of the things that I've seen that I've really loved looking at is there's a social platform called Zion that's built on Bitcoin internet three technology. It's actually built on transactions of SATs that go back and forth, and that's how the information is encrypted, which is top level encryption, because that's part of what cryptocurrency is, is the encrypted ability. So, it's safe, secure in that way. But also, because it's already working with microtransactions between people, that actually, you send it and then you get sent back. So it doesn't actually cost you anything, it's just using that. But you have the ability to send a little more, if you like. So, let's say someone posts something that you really like, a tweet for example. "You're like, "Man, that was really thoughtful, that really impacted." Instead of just writing a comment, with a zero amount transaction, you just add a little more to that. Like hey, thank you, that was meaningful. And then the creator could say, "Hey, thanks for your comment back." And just as easily as that, just transact a little bit more. So, there's a way built in without having to go to, "Hey, what's your PayPal? Let me send you five bucks." Which is so awkward to do, if you're going to do it. But it's just built in, and it's built in to, it makes things, like I know you're very fond of this kind of idea, like a gift value of a video that you create. I know a video, an amazing video that you and my other brother Ben Stewart made. You just had a donation up there. And so many of the things you do say yeah, if this is something that you appreciate, here's an opportunity to donate, and it's kind of reevaluating the model. It's what we actually do with our yoga studios, Black Swan Yoga. They're donation based. And it seems to be part of the model. But the ability for these next generation cryptocurrencies, or first generation in this case that I was talking about, to just easily be able to allow money to flow back and forth so that we feel like we're supporting each other in a more beautiful way. That got me really excited when I saw how easily that could actually happen when deployed in a social media platform, or a video hosting platform.

CHARLES: Yeah. I think that in the digital realm at least, the only natural business model is gift. Because it doesn't cost anything to create the second copy of a digital creation, or the third copy, or the millionth copy. Or the cost is very, very tiny. Whether one person downloads my video, or a million, it doesn't cost me anymore. So, how can I charge for that millionth download? I've done no more work. And the way that that commerce as we know it has continued in the digital age is through artificial scarcity. I could let you have it pretty much for free, but I'm not going to, I'm going to keep it, even though you are taking it, it's not like I have widgets in a store, like I'm selling watering cans in a garden shop and you take it. That's one less than I have. If you download my video, that's not one less video I have on my server. Because the natural price point of something with zero marginal production cost is zero, content creators, and we're talking to corporations, Disney and so forth, what they do is they create artificial scarcity with DRM systems and paywalls, and subscription models and stuff like that. And it's withholding something that could be free when we could have incredible abundance, but we create artificial scarcity. And that is the template for the physical material world as well. Our whole society runs on artificial scarcity. We could be in incredible abundance if we stopped trying to control so much. I mean, like the system of private property. If you're very wealthy, you could have the biggest ranch in Texas, but you will have less freedom to freely roam the land than a penniless hunter gatherer would have had 300 years ago. Their territory was bigger than the biggest ranch in Texas. And everybody had that freedom. You could go anywhere you wanted. You look over the landscape. I mean, this is something that I think about a lot. I'm driving along, beautiful New England landscape. All these inviting lakes and hills and stuff. And actually, I can't go to any of them. Unless it's a park. They're all off limits. And we are constricted, we're like imprisoned in these little patches of land. Is it because there isn't much land? No, there's land everywhere. And we don't take up that much space. It's because of a system of artificial scarcity. So, the digital realm is offering us kind of an easy on ramp to a gift economy. And the way to do it, is like you were saying. You do it by donation or with a system you were describing. It could be like a little tip. And yeah, we would be in abundance that way.

AUBREY: So, how do you respond to, alright, James Cameron, he's spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to make Avatar two and three. And actually, just as a side note, deeply appreciate--

CHARLES: Hundreds of millions, you mean.

AUBREY: Yeah, did I say billions? Yeah, hundreds of millions. Hundreds of billions, goodness. We're not in stimulus check land here. All right. So, he's spending hundreds of millions to do this. And it would be such a massive leap of faith to offer that with a donation model. Obviously, the movie theaters are a different thing. They got rent, they got seats and popcorn and things like that. So let's leave that aside. But just like they do, if they just offered it, I think the confidence to be able to create something with a hard cost of that magnitude, and not have that kind of artificial digital scarcity, which of course like you said, as many people watch "Avatar" doesn't cost them anymore. But the feeling like, uh-oh, if we don't do this thing, we'll never get our money back. I think that's what's tough for the big pieces that are out there.

CHARLES: Oh, yeah. You used the exact right words. It would be a leap of faith. Because we're conditioned, see, we're conditioned to a view of human nature, that everybody's trying to get the best deal. And that, of course, people aren't going to give if they don't have to give, why would they? That's less for them, and more for me. Why would they do that? So I have to force them to do that. Otherwise, they won't give. Well, that view of human nature, that we are all self-interest maximizing economic machines, that is a story. And in my experience, it isn't true. So, I use this model for all my online stuff, and even a lot of in-person stuff. And, it works for me. I mean, I've been doing it for 10 years. I don't charge for any of my online programs. But if there's a donation, people can give zero if they want. And a lot of them do. But a lot of them don't. Like close to half, if it's like an online course, something really substantial, close to half will donate something. Some of them might just give 20 bucks. But some of them might give 1,000 bucks. 

AUBREY: Yeah. 

CHARLES: It's working in the sense that I've been doing it for 10 years. And then when other people encounter the idea, they say, "Well, I couldn't do that, because I have a mortgage to pay." I'm like, you don't understand, this is not a way to make less money, it is not a sacrifice. It is stepping into a different reality, a reality in which human beings when they receive something they desire to give in turn. And if they are deeply moved by what they receive, then they desire to give generously. And so, I think that if that if James Cameron, now, this is way out of his hands, because he's part of an entire--

AUBREY: He's a big machine, yeah. 

CHARLES: Hollywood matrix, with many, many players, and so forth. So, I don't want to say that it'd be easy to do it this way. But just to say, if he did it by donation, and the film is as good as the first one, there are a lot of people who would give a lot of money. You might even make more money that way.

AUBREY: Yep. And it would take some kind of pioneer like that. That would be a move that would have ripples throughout the world. Like that thing, if somebody has that capacity made a movie that was that loved or "Star Wars" for example, obviously, that's part of the Disney matrix. And, I don't know, they don't have the best reputation for such things. But all things are fucking possible, who knows about reputations? Who the fuck knows. But if someone took that leap of faith, and just did that, I mean, maybe it wouldn't do well, but I feel with you. I feel like maybe it would, and if it did, it would change the fucking world to do it at that scale, and say that this is the biggest grossing movie of all time. And it was based on donations. Whoa.

CHARLES: And the other thing is, what about like the single mom who literally would come out of her grocery money to pay 10 bucks for her and her kids to see this movie? Does James Cameron actually want to take her $10? He doesn't. I've not met the guy, but I know people who know him. He's a human being, he's a feeling, loving human being, just like almost every one of us. He doesn't want to take grocery money from some woman. He would love those people to be able to pay nothing, and be compensated for by people who have the means. And that's another thing, you go into these things and you realize, maybe I'll pay a little more because I want this to be shared with the world, and I want to subsidize those who are in financial poverty right now. We can come together, it's just this shift of perception. We can come together as humanity and live in paradise. 

AUBREY: Yep. It's inspiring. It's inspiring to talk to you always, Charles. And in this case, it's personally inspiring because as I said, we have Black Swan Yoga Studios that have been donation based since the beginning, and it's been the suggested donation because people like to have an idea of, shit, I don't know how much yoga, it's 10 bucks. Suggested though. Some people pay zero, some people pay 20. But the average we get is $9.10. But our classes are full, and we've been voted Best Yoga studio of Austin, like six out of seven years. It's like many positive things are happening. So yeah, all right, maybe we're losing 90 cents per customer, but we're probably getting 50% more people showing up. This virtuous system has developed. But even with that success, personally, I still feel that little flinch that comes from my conditioning in ways in which more things that I do could be donation based. Now of course, with Onnit, you got bottles and capsules and things and it's hard goods, and it's very difficult in a hard goods world to have donations. But in a lot of the different aspects that I'm dealing with, there's more that I could push into that. And I just have this feeling, just my whole body feels like if I step into that, the Divine is going to meet me the other halfway. And that's the big availability that's waiting. So, I'm fucking inspired personally, and also appreciative that you shared this.

CHARLES: Yeah, it's like the divine steps in, you said. It's just like what we were talking about at the beginning, with Burning Man and the synchronicity. You are really stepping into a different reality. And when you do that, then other people step into it with you. And that old view of human nature as selfish, self-interest maximizers is no longer true. With your trust and the generosity of others, you invite them into that generosity. The thing is, especially when it comes to material goods, like your Onnit product line or whatever, we don't have the infrastructure for a gift-based economy. How would you do distribution, right? And we don't also have the psychological infrastructure for it. So, this means that you can't necessarily go full on a gift, and have it work. For me what it is, it's trusting the impulse, keeping my eye on the future. And then, knowing that there's a way to get to that future. And then that attunes me to what is the next step deeper into that reality, deeper toward that future? And it might be whatever that next step is for me, might be different for you. But usually, when you feel that sense of inspiration, there will be something that feels a little bold, but it's not beyond, it's not reckless. It's not like we're going to offer all our products for free. 

AUBREY: Yeah, kettlebells for free. Kettlebells donation based. Like shit, we ran out of kettlebells really fast. 

CHARLES: Right, right. So, yeah. Because people don't have a conceptual category for that. Their category is price or free. But gifts are not free. It's a totally different mindset. 

AUBREY: Yeah. Charles, I love seeing you like this, brother. I feel your radiance through the screen, and I've known you for years now. And always I leave every encounter I have with you feeling more alive. And this is no exception. But also, there's another layer of just really enjoying seeing you full of vitality and full of lifeforce. It makes me full of lifeforce, as I behold you today. So, such a pleasure, such an honor, brother, Thanks for being a part of this. Thanks for being a part of not only the inspiration for Arkadia, but also the speaker lineup and your presence there. We're going to do something really special there.

CHARLES: Yeah, I trust that. 

AUBREY: Absolutely. Thanks, everybody for tuning in. Much love. 

AUBREY (ADS): So, as I mentioned in the intro, this podcast lit a fire underneath me. And really, I realized that I want to start living and abiding by the Principles of Economics in the more beautiful world, which as Charles and I discussed, involves a donation based model based upon trust and the principles of reciprocity. As Lao Tzu said, trust them, and they become trustworthy. And so, stepping forward into this new paradigm, it's a paradigm of trust. So what does this mean? We're halfway through the ticket offer process for Arkadia. So, there are some logistics that we have to figure out. How do we transition halfway through midstream into a donation-based model where half of the tickets are already sold at the current price that we're offering? And we're sorting that out. There's some contractual obligations we have with artists and venues and all kinds of things that are related. But I want you to trust that it is our intention to do the best we can midstream, to transition into this elective freewill donation-based model. Because we trust that stepping forward into this model is going to be a way to lead the new paradigm, to actually have Fit For Service be an act of service to this more beautiful world. And starting with Arkadia. So maybe that just means that we change the way that we offer a refund after people have already bought it if they wanted to, in effect, donate less than already what they bought. Or maybe it means that we'll be able to change the different options of donation for what you want to pay for a ticket. We're still figuring that out at the time of the release of this podcast, but we're going to do our best. And then on a go-forward basis, Fit For Service and all of the courses, and everything that is not a tangible item that could be resold, I'm going to offer at a donation based pricing. Now, the reason that I don't want to offer things that have a tangible price that can be resold, of course, then people can just buy them and then resell them. And I do trust people. However, ultimately there will be that 1 out of 100, or 1000 or 10,000 people who could take advantage of a system, set up an eBay account or an Amazon account. And so, we have to be also reasonable and mindful that not everybody is in the more beautiful world. But for these events that we can actually offer, that aren't able to be resold, you can't resell your tickets to Arkadia, or to the next core event in Sedona, we're switching to a donation-based model. And all of the online courses that we offer from here forward, once again, it's a donation from here on out. And I really credit this to one, Charles, for his impeccable philosophy, to my own connection with what I believe to be the way things can be, what I feel in my own heart. And that's part of his message, right? It's the more beautiful world our hearts know as possible. My heart knows that this is possible. I trust people. I trust that this will work. And if it doesn't, then of course, that just means that this model is too early. And potentially, that Fit For Service is not ready to be in existence at this point in time. And so, we'll wait, and we'll come back when the culture and the consciousness has evolved. But I don't think that's going to be the case. I believe that it's going to work. So, I'm just incredibly grateful that this conversation happened, and incredibly grateful to be able to offer this to the world. When I started Onnit with Joe Rogan, we always had the idea that we wanted to create a globally disruptive entity. And that was not only the products that we offered, but the way that we did it, the return policy where you didn't have to jump through any hoops. And you could just say you didn't like it, didn't have to send anything back, and we'd give you a full return. It was an evolution of the current economic system, but not a revolution of the current economic system. And what we're looking for now is a revolution. This is the time of revolution. This is the time where the way that we've done things and small tweaks to the way that we've done things is not going to be sufficient. It's the time for radical moves, where we flip the tables over. This fills me with energy and passion, and I'm excited to be a part of that, and excited to have Arkadia be the first step not only in ideology, but in the pragmatic. And, of course, risk, the unique risk that offering this provides, in which there's so much hard cost. I mean we've never spent this much money on any event, like we're spending for Arkadia because of the musical lineup. And these are some of the best musicians out there in the world that are all coming to perform, and some of the best speakers. And so, this is a unique risk. Will this work? I believe it will, because I believe in you who are listening, and I believe that the spirit of this will carry the day. I'm excited. I'm excited about the future. So, thank you for listening to this. Once again, the last podcast I did with Zach Bush and this podcast are part of an eight-part series that we're releasing to attendees of Arkadia. These two obviously were released to the general public. But all of the other conversations, talking about different vectors of what this more beautiful world will look like, are going to be made available for all the Arkadia attendees. So, if you're part of this revolutionary event, then you're going to get access to all of that. And if you come to the event, you're going to be participating in a revolutionary act, part of the more beautiful world. And man, it's going to be fun. It's going to be so fun to be there in Alpine, celebrating, living, dancing, breathing, participating in community and tribe and reciprocity and joy and bliss. The antithesis of the deadness of the universe, the way to revivify the life force that really changes everything. It's a step into an alternate reality. It's seeing the world through the eyes of love and possibility. And that's what we're going for. And it depends on all of us coming there and creating that reality. I believe that we will. In fact, I have no doubts. So, for those of you coming, I can't wait to see you there. And for everyone else, I love you madly, and I look forward to continuing to share the ideas and ideologies about how all of us, no matter what events we attend, or don't attend, that we can just carry some of this ethos in our own hearts because that is what will change the world. So once again, if you're interested in attending, go to fitforservice/arkadia, and check it out.