In this powerfully vulnerable podcast with Rabbi Dr. Marc Gafni and his partner Kristina Kincaid we discuss the myriad wounds that culture can inflict, and our personal process of healing and resolution. In also clarify the reason why I am continuing my work with Rabbi Gafni, so for anyone interested in that topic please give this podcast a listen.

Connect with Dr.Marc Gafni

Website |https://www.marcgafni.com/

Twitter |https://twitter.com/MarcGafni

Instagram |https://www.instagram.com/marcgafni/

Connect with Dr. Kristina Kincaid

Website |https://www.drkristinakincaid.com/

Instagram |https://www.instagram.com/dr.kristinakincaid/

AUBREY: Marc.

MARC: Aubrey.

AUBREY: How are you, brother?

MARC: Good to see you, man.

AUBREY: Good to see you too. Kristina?

KRISTINA: Hey. Hey, hey, hey. Good to see you too. 

AUBREY: Yeah? Good to see you as well. So, all of us here, in our own way, have spent a good portion of our life and a big part of our dharma, in service of the Goddess. For you particularly Marc, in all of the Abrahamic religions, there has been a big emphasis on the masculine presence of the Divine. That's what we look at, we call it He. God, he. And this has been carried on through the traditions in many ways. And you came in, and you reread the lineage texts, all the way back to the ancient, ancient texts. And what you found was a through line, where it was actually the Goddess that was at the center of the temple mysteries. 

MARC: She. 

AUBREY: She? 

MARC: She. 

AUBREY: And she's been largely forgotten in our interpretation of what Judaism is, of what Christianity is, and what Islam is. In doing that, you became something of a heretic, of course. Changing the gender of the God that is worshiped. I mean, it's kind of a big deal. And I'm sure in your journey, you came up against a lot of resistance from conservative traditional Jewish faith saying, "Whoa, what are you doing here?"

MARC: Yeah, yeah. And it's funny that the resistance isn't particularly from what you would think are the orthodoxies. In other words, but that the sense of he, the sense of rivalrous conflict, are governed by win lose metrics, actually moves throughout organized religion. And of course, Hebrew wisdom is no exception. And to actually find the root of she, that's feeling differently, that's willing to put down the weapons and to actually open up is hard, right? Because organized religions are power structures. I came from a wonderful family, and a complicated family, and a poor family, and a powerless family. And so, I stepped into that world, and she was whispering in my ear from the very beginning. And I was trying to find her. And yet, I was operating deep in a set of establishments that felt threatening, that the embodiment of it was threatening. And so, there was a dance and it was a painful, poignant ecstatic dance that, and which many, many vessels were shattered. There's a lot of shattered vessels, there's broken hearts and broken vessels. And it's the only way we can actually birth and be in devotion to she. And so, I don't regret a moment of it. And she's never left me. And oh, my goddess.

AUBREY: Those who have defined themselves with a certain codification of knowledge, whether this is religious scholarship, or whether this is some form of academic scholarship. Either way, I mean, there's actually been studies on this. When there's a dominant viewpoint that exists within the academic structures, it actually requires that person to pass away. And I cited the study in the book until new citations are formed, and new theories are formed. When there's a dominant structure, there's an energy, almost an immune system that protects it, that the person who holds it has, so that they can establish themselves in the dominance hierarchy, and their whole power structure. And actually, the field itself has this kind of immune system. And so, your teachings have considerably come up against these structures. And we'll talk about some of the ways that this has transpired, of course, because there's a big issue to discuss on the table. But ultimately, the framework is that, regardless of which way your life has gone, you've been someone who's been flipping over the tables of established thought and codification, and the idea that people know something, and they're empowered because of their knowledge base, right? You've been challenging that deeply.

MARC: Beautifully said. I would just, gently, tenderly, fiercely, and maybe today's about those two words, about so tenderly, right? Quivering tenderness and fierceness. Just two things that just kind of come up. And one is that, you would think that the orthodoxies look like orthodoxies, but they're disguised in many distressing disguises. So, people can speak a certain language, and that language might even be the language of She. It might be a language of renewal, and it might be a language of Goddess, but actually, it's really he. So, it's not about the language, it's about what's the consciousness within it, right? Are we really open to hold each other? Are we really willing to put down our swords, and all of the implications of swords, and actually love each other not as a particular currency of power, or even love can be hijacked for power. And I sometimes think, when I read about the Borgias in the church, of course, Machiavelli was very close to Borgia, the Pope's son, we're not surprised that they were corrupt. Because when we look at Catholic doctrine, with all of its beauty, there's a lot that we feel is corrupt, is tragic, is just violating what we understand the human being to be. So when a pope is corrupt, we kind of expect it, right? But when, in the worlds of human potential and the worlds of the New Age and the worlds in which we think we should know better, when the same kind of dominance hierarchy comes up, the same kind of movements of power come up, we're surprised because the language seems to be right. It seems to be she, but it's actually the shadow of he. And so, we'll just notice. I noticed along the years that sometimes I would meet, and maybe I'll leave this with just this image. I was in Israel, and the Chief Rabbi of Israel, was named Avraham Shapira. He's a little man, wise, feisty, erudite, brilliant. And there was a group of rabbis in the particular area that I was, who said, "We need you to meet us at the Chief Rabbi's office. It's a meeting about Soviet Jewry. And I was 30\. I said, "Soviet Jewry, that's a really important topic. Of course I'll come, but why would they call me?" And I get to the Chief Rabbi's, the inner sanctum, the Chief Rabbi's office and he's sitting there. He's 85 or whatever age he was. These seven rabbis are sitting around who are in the area in Samaria where I was the rabbi of a community. And I walked in and I realized the energy when I walked in. I said, this is not about Soviet Jewry. I am on trial here. Right? And they started asking me detailed questions in law. Very arcane detailed questions in the Aramaic law. And Goddess has been good to me, so I know something about that. And they were surprised. And I answered every single question. And they just were shocked. And then the Chief Rabbi says, everyone, please leave. And then we're sitting looking at each other, and I'm not sure is he going to blast me. And then he says, kind of like rabbits, little people, all the rabbis who had left. And he said, "I understand what you're doing, I'll protect you." And this was the Chief Rabbi of Israel, right? And there was she in front of me. She is this old man. So, she appears in all sorts of disguises, and you never know where she's going to appear. It's not split along the lines of the Renewal people or the Orthodox people. It's about who a person is, am I in devotion to She? Or am I in, what's ultimately, some form of rivalrous conflict in which the currency that I'm using happens to be religious or spiritual? But, ultimately, I'm now in devotion to her. So, this rabbi was in devotion to her.

AUBREY: Such a good distinction. And that image really lands. Kristina, I want to go into your story a little bit, because obviously, a massively successful career as a model. But through that process, you incurred some trauma, sexual trauma, which, I haven't been with a partner that's not experienced that. It's not like I'm pre-selecting for that category. Or I'm attracted to the manifestations of that. It's just every time I get intimate with someone and really find the truth, it's there, and it's tragic. It's tragic. And so common in our world. And you had experienced this, and that led you on your journey to heal yourself, and then offer the insights to others. So, I don't mean to summarize your story for you. But tell us a bit of your journey through that process. 

KRISTINA: Yeah. I didn't understand, probably like a lot of your partners, what had happened to me until later in my life. I started having trigger memories when I was in my 20s, and I was modeling and having this career. And just started having sort of snippets of memories that started coming back to me out of nowhere, and I was sort of horrified and shocked and kind of terrified by them. I obviously didn't understand what they were at the time. And then thread through started, I started seeing some kind of thread through, something obviously happened to me. I even had very visceral memories of coughing up. I mean, I'll just say it, it was just ejaculate out of, like I couldn't understand what was happening. I mean, again, it was just shocking. And so, I knew that I had to find a way to heal myself. I was also having issues with relationships. I couldn't understand why I was struggling so much. So, I started a traditional sort of allopathic kind of psychotherapy. I did that for several years. And one day I just heard myself talking, and I thought, okay, it's time to go. It was important to actually begin to tell the story, but it actually wasn't healing. And I realized that I had to go deeper. There was a school called The Barbara Brennan School of Healing. And it was kind of like a Harry Potter school for adults. And I thought, well, in order to heal myself, I needed to walk through a different door, a different door of, there's sort of ordinary reality, and then there's non-ordinary reality. And so, my first year of school, like the first week, and I met a woman who had had her own story of sexual abuse, and she was starting to develop cancerous problems with her uterus and her female organs. And I thought, wow, I really have to find a way to heal myself. And so, she introduced me to a shaman who I won't go into the whole story, but a shaman in Mexico, who did an alternative kind of healing extraction. And so, I went to Mexico, and that door opened. I went to see him. There was a group of expats and a friend of mine who had a camera, and they took me to see him. And at the time, this was 20 some years ago. This was in Tulum, when Tulum was just a dry and dusty road out to the beach. But he lived on a cliff overlooking the hills, overlooking the ruins in Tulum. They took me there, we walked up the hill, and it was hot as hell. And I thought, oh, Lord, maybe I shouldn't have come. And so we got up there, and out he came. We didn't know he was there. We didn't have cell phones at the time. And out he comes this little Mayan man with a potbelly. They spoke no English. And so they basically said to him, what was going on with me, and he was tell her to go inside and take off her clothes. And I thought, wow, okay, here we go. And I experienced I won't go into detail, because it's quite graphic, but I experienced a non-traditional kind of healing, that actually began me on a deeper sort of understanding of the images and the whole sort of construct, and sort of narratives we have around sexuality. It was actually a vaginal extraction. In shamanism, they do extractions in all different kinds of ways. And so it kind of rocked my world. And of course, after I left, I thought, wow, did I just rewound myself, or was this an actual healing?

AUBREY: So, just for context, in the ayahuasca traditions, they call this type of work, they call it Chupar, which is the sucking, right? So, obviously, this type of extractions you're talking about, super taboo. It's not what you're going to find in a normal ayahuasca center, because of course, it's playing with fire at this point. But ultimately, if you have something in your stomach, or in your back, I watched them with my friend actually, in the first ayahuasca documentary I did, Don Rober, Banco Curandero out at Don Howard's place, he did a Chupar on my friend Mitch Schultz is on his back. And there was a healing mat in the center of the room. And then he would almost gag and purge and vomit and cough and do this. So, this is a technique that they've learned through their thousands of years of lineage. But of course, when the trauma is sexual, well, so many of these things are reasonably so off the table, because the impeccability required, and then the willingness to enter that space required, it's hardly ever going to be met in the right criteria for that to be warranted. But just wanted to put that out there, that this idea of using sucking on a specific area where you've been injured, or where you're holding something, whether it's your liver, whether it's your spine, or whether it's your heart, I've seen this many times, and I've seen it effective on other areas. So, as crazy as this may sound, I've seen it in other forms. So, it's not like this one guy had this crazy idea. This is part of a tradition.

KRISTINA: Just to add on to what you were just saying. My friend, Peter Beard, who is a photographer, was a friend of mine at the time. And he was in Africa and he got gored by an elephant in his hip. And the Maasai, and he wrote me these letters, he would write me, from Africa, these letters. And in one of the letters, it talks about how they cut him open and sucked the, he called it the evil el juices out of his hip. And so, just like you're saying, yes, those techniques have been used for thousands of years. But obviously, on my own, especially in the world that I was traveling in, after the healing happened, I thought, wow, I certainly can't go back and tell people about this, they'll think I've lost my mind, or they won't understand.

AUBREY: And also, it's potentially, it's iffy to tell people about this, because then if they go down to their local Hollywood shaman and say, can you do a vaginal extraction for me, and they're with the wrong person. I mean, I've heard stories of this same thing, where it's like, this is not held in the impeccability, that's required. So, it's interesting, because it's a very rare and unique path that this can actually be productive. So, it's almost an impossibility to recommend it because of the specificity of the individual, both receiving and the individual providing that service. So, it's like, look, I did this, but this is not a recommendation by any stretch of the imagination. So that's important. 

KRISTINA: Yeah. And I do want to say, later on, I actually did go back. I took a film crew with me, a woman who spoke Spanish, and we went back. And he spoke a lot about his healing techniques and his healing art. And she felt confident when we left that he was integris. And I did as well. Like I said, there were doubts that came in from lots of different voices. But I was also experiencing something that was profoundly liberating. And just to say, later on, just fast forward in terms of the Barbara Brennan school, it was a four-year program. And for your senior year, you had to do a case study, and you had to do a session with a person who... You had to do 10 sessions. And then you had to present your case in front of the group of faculty and students from the school. And so, I prayed, I was praying, I was praying, please, Dear God, send me like a perfect person for this healing. There's this guy who came forward. There was a series of meetings, and so on and so forth. But he was doubly insisted on a kibbutz by both his mother and father. And I thought, oh, my God, how am I going to help this person? I have these 10 sessions. And I was learning and I had been through four years, I obviously had some ground and some skill sets in terms of the learning of the school. But in terms of actually working with someone with such a serious trauma, and he had been working. He was older, he was in his 50s. And he had been working with groups. He kind of developed this body of work where it was about letting your genitals talk, right? And so, he was a partner of Eve Ensler, who went on to write "The Vagina Monologues". So, in Barbara Brennan, there's a particular protocol where you start at the feet, and then you go up the ankles, and then the knees, and then the legs, up the body. And you're fully clothed, and obviously the person's fully clothed. So, it's very, very boundary healing. Then you go up the chakras, and so on and so forth. So, around the seventh healing, I heard my guidance say, put your heart over his genitals. I thought, I'm not sure I'm supposed to do that. "Hello?" That's kind of against the boundaries in school. And then I heard it again, just put your heart down over his genitals. And I took a deep breath, and I thought about it a little bit more, and I asked again, "Are you sure?" And the third time, it's going to make me cry, but I just put my heart over, over his genitals. I'm sorry. And I realized he started crying, he burst into tears. And it was like the first time he had been touched without a sexual intention in his genitals, right? And I realize that's what the shaman did for me as well, right? There wasn't an intention sexually, even when he was doing the extraction. And that's what felt so different. It's all about intention, right? And so he could feel the love, and that's what actually did the healing. Does that make sense? It was from a pure place. There wasn't a sexual intention to take anything or an expectation of anything. And so I realized, well, that's what my guidance was trying to tell me when I was working with my case study. And so I wrote up the healing. You have to write it all up and present it before the faculty and the students. And almost got kicked out of school. And I had to do 20 more Jungian sessions, to make sure I had good enough boundaries to actually graduate from the school. But it was an extraordinary gift to know, just to receive that, to understand the depth of what that healing was about for me, and that healing was about for him. So, that was one part. Healing is obviously a journey. I went on to study a body of work called core energetics, which is based on Reich's work. Which was a lot about learning how to read the emotional energy that creates the person's physiological expression. And then using that sort of energetic wisdom to actually, rather than going in through the head, you go in through the body, right? And so you can see the physiologic, where the blocks are in the body. They teach you how to look and find the blocks. Reich's whole work was about helping liberate the armored man, right? We develop this armor, and this central channel gets blocked. And if we're not allowed to have our sex, then our energy has to run around the second chakra. If we're not allowed to have a sense of self, our energy has to run around that. If we're not allowed to have the fullness of our heart, our energy runs that way. If we're not allowed to have our voice, it runs around right into your ability to kind of visualize and create your life to your connection to source, right? And so, when all of that's blocked, we live this kind of awkward, weird configuration of our divinity, I'll say. And then the work is to actually unblock and unarmor ourselves so that we can have the fullness of our being and connect to our divinity. And so, I did that body of work for many, many years. And I remember Barbara Brennan, they said, when I first started school, your biggest wound will become your greatest gift. And I thought at the time, I was like, fuck. I can't imagine how I could think of that kind of wounding as being a gift. At the end of it, when you actually start to heal, and you start to grow and learn, you realize you can actually turn around and give something back. So, it does become a gift. And, when I met Marc, I mean, that's a kind of a long segue. The other thing, I traveled around the world with different kinds of healers and shamans to kind of understand. I had an anthropology background and studied primate behavior, but I was always curious about this whole process of healing. Like, what is healing? How do we heal? What needs to transpire in order for healing to happen? And, what's the common thread amongst cultures that we could kind of see how healing works, right? Because it has to be obviously humanistic, a deeper humanistic understanding and experience.

AUBREY: Before we go into the meeting with Marc, I just want to tell a story from my own life.

KRISTINA: Okay. 

AUBREY: I was very fortunate. I had no real sexual trauma that wasn't basically self-incurred. I put so much pressure on myself to perform in everything in life. And obviously, with that much pressure, there were times where I didn't perform. And I had one particular partner who was pretty ruthless when I couldn't perform, and bring her to climax. She would roll over and turn her back to me, and shut me out and masturbate herself. And I would just be sitting there boiling in my own self-loathing. Really not anger at her, just self-loathing that I was completely worthless, and I'd failed as a man. That was deep, and of course, it's not the same stories of so many people that I know, because it's not just women who've been abused. So many men that I know, especially so many high-performing men. Part of what their desire to have this wealth and to have this power is armor, like you said. It's just, let me get so powerful that no one will ever hurt me again. I didn't have that. And I feel very blessed for that. But of course, my own swords and daggers and poisoned arrows were pointed right back in me, and other people reinforced that. I was able to move through a lot of that, thanks to loving partners, like Caitlin and the loving partners that I had, and Whitney, and so many other loving, beautiful partners. But there was still a lot that I needed to heal. And actually, as it was unhealed, towards the end of my relationship with Whitney, that healing hadn't happened. And of course, polyamory is an incredibly challenging thing, where it's not only one partner that I was worrying about satisfying, it was many partners. And it was not many, but the other paramours that I had. Sometimes one other one or another one. And so, there was this feeling that something was off, and it actually manifested, as you described, obviously not as severe as the cancerous growths, but I would get these real dry patches on my penis that were just incessant. There was no way that I could stop them. Like the skin would get really dry and peel. And I was constantly doing this. Then it would form a scab, and then it would come off, and it wasn't an STD or anything like that. It was just like a skin condition, but it was entirely localized to my penis, right? I thought, alright, this is what I have to deal with. And then I would get pains in my prostate and different things. And again, I was in a fairly loving situation. I look back, it's a beautiful relationship I had. But when I got with Vylana, her nature is as a healer. And she's had, as I said, like her own traumas. And a lot of these traumas that she didn't remember. And the healing between us started, when before we were going to have sex in the intercourse form where we're both entering into the sex together, I was loving her sexually just in worship. And when I would do that, she would cry. She would just cry and cry. Because no one had ever done that, no one had just loved her in that way, without wanting anything, without needing their own pleasure. And that was part of her healing in the same way. And I'm no master healer or anything, but it was just love. It was just like what you did, just your heart. It was just my heart, my heart in her body. And time and time again, just crying. And she was like okay, it's time for your healing. She thought that she was going to have to do a lot of healing on my genitals. That's where she thought it was going to be. And we actually, we took mushrooms together. And she went in with a full plan to heal my genitals but in the medicine together, she realized that it was my heart. It was just my heart. And all of the healing went into my heart. And yes, some sexual things happened. But that wasn't what was happening. What was happening is she was showing me as an embodiment of the Goddess that she was loving my heart, and that all of that other stuff didn't matter. We were crying, and I was crying. And not once since that moment have I had any issues come back. Not one, not with the prostate, not with any of the dry skin patches. Something like that happens, it doesn't fit in the western model, which doesn't understand the energetics of the body. It discards it entirely. But you experience something like that, and you know, we're multifaceted, multi-dimensional, complex, energetic beings. And we store energetic trauma in different places. So, I just wanted to share that story because it's personal to me. And I know it, and I felt it, and Vy I felt that. And, we know how powerful that is. And of course, we're blessed in the fact that we were both able to offer that to each other. Not because we're masters, but just because we had a lot of heart, and some great intention. And of course, we've gotten more skilled at being able to heal each other since then, because it opened our eyes. But, it's a powerful story about what can heal in the container of sexuality when the trauma has come sexually.

KRISTINA: Yes, gorgeous. Thank you. 

AUBREY: So Kristina. Now, let's go to the part of the story where you meet Marc. And of course, this is more complicated an issue because as someone who'd experienced sexual trauma, you're going to meet someone who had internet accusations of sexual abuse, right? So, this was a complicated decision at the start. And of course, I just want to help bring us into your mindset as you made the decisions along the path, and you kind of encountered Marc as you know him, as your partner, as your lover. But of course, at first it wasn't. And just what was going through your mind and how that journey kind of took you.

KRISTINA: Well, I'll say, I had read some things about Marc before I went to the workshop. The workshop that he was doing was called A Journey to Love. And at that time, I had graduated from the core program, and I was actually teaching at the Institute. I was teaching sexuality. And so, I'm ever curious. And I actually brought the executive director of the institute with me to the workshop, and another colleague. And when I met Marc, and he began this workshop, like I said, it was called a Journey to Love. 

AUBREY: Did you meet Marc or just see him on stage? 

KRISTINA: It was a workshop, kind of at this place called Shalom Mountain. It was a smaller group, but there were probably 40, 50 people there. 

AUBREY: So somewhat intimate. 

KRISTINA: Yeah, and so, we didn't have any kind of close interaction. He came on, and began the teachings. By the second day, it was on a Saturday. I think a Thursday evening, or Friday. And then Saturday afternoon, we were getting ready to break for lunch. And Marc was giving basically a dharmic transmission, which I didn't quite understand at the time and the core were like, ha, we're moving and we're screaming, and there's all kinds of energetic movement. And this was very, very subtle and very quiet, but potent. I mean, I could feel something was happening. And as everyone began to break for lunch, I started to feel this strange, I just felt strange. And so, I sat up, everybody was leaving the room, and I sat up against the wall. And all of a sudden, I lurched forward in this force of Shakti. I didn't know at the time, just this force of love just started to surge through me. And I thought, oh my god, and I was kind of embarrassed because it just took hold of me. And I was kind of laid flat out on the floor having a massive Kundalini experience where just waves and waves of ecstasy were just penetrating my being. I was in this orgiastic state for probably half an hour. And the way I can describe it was like having an encounter with divine love. Basically, she broke me open from the inside. She just fucked me open, literally like on the floor there. I was at her, I'll say my greatest mercy in terms of the visitation from her. After it was over, I just laid there. And I heard this is the path of living with an open heart. Like I said, I just felt this divine love, it was an encounter with divine love itself that was so overwhelming, that I let it integrate. And that night when I went to bed, I heard my guidance say, you have to ask him to be your teacher. So, the workshop went on and lots of people had lots of, it was profound and deeper realizations. And at the end of the workshop, I never asked anybody to be my teacher. I was always kind of like the person that traipsed the world looking for different teachers I had. I got Shakti pad in India. I mean, I traveled the world, in Nepal, you name it. I went everywhere in search of healing for different kinds of healers. And never, ever had the experience of hearing guidance tell me to choose somebody as a teacher. So, I went up to him at the end of the workshop, and I said, "Would you be my teacher?" And he said, are you committed? And are you in? And are you willing? And I said yes. 

AUBREY: Was that hard, given what you'd read? Because at that point, I'm sure you hadn't talked to him about what you'd read online. And there's all kinds of wild allegations that have circulated the internet, and you having been a victim of sexual abuse, was it hard or did just your encounter with him cause you to just trust him by the expression of his being? And so it was already resolved in your mind?

KRISTINA: It was already resolved in my body, mind. I knew. I mean, I knew. That's the only way I can just articulate it. Obviously, the workshop was held in the greatest integrity. And, obviously, that energy that came in was so profound, there was nowhere in my body that I questioned the integrity of the energy of Marc and his transmission of that energy. And so, for me that was what I needed. It was my heart, I had to follow that. And, in my experience with him over the years, that was some 10 years ago. I've seen his unrelenting devotion to his students, the people that he works with, and just tireless devotion and love and gifting. And he's a man who truly walks the path of an outrageous lover. I've actually never met anybody like him.

AUBREY: And you're in a position to know him, to know him more than anyone. You are his outrageous lover. And he holds the same regard for you from the moment that we all got together. That was the thing that was so obvious was how attentive and how loving and how much he revered you and worshiped you, and how much he feels that way to the Goddess, in general. And I think, for me, that's been something that's hard to explain to other people who read things online, and wild things online. But then you're there, you feel it, and I feel you, and I feel like what feels like the truth and it's like yeah, all right, we could go through the hundreds of thousands of words and the letter from Sally Kempton, and Daniel Schmachtenberger and Barbara Marx Hubbard and Ken Wilber and all of this analysis of this thing, and the polygraph tests that show, according to this polygraph a less than 1% chance of deception. And all of this whole stuff where you can use your logical mind to try and figure out how the stories arrived, and where the stories got askew. And that's all valuable. And I think that's all important, because the mind needs to settle itself as well. But it's the feeling. And if people are asking me which they do, like, "Aubrey, what are you doing? What are you doing?" And it's like, I'm telling you guys, I feel it, like you felt it. I feel it, and I wouldn't do it otherwise. It doesn't matter how fucking wise you are. You are very wise, very wise, but I wouldn't do it otherwise. It's not worth it. It's not worth it for me, for Vylana. It's not. And when I was in ayahuasca, recently, ayahuasca said to me very clearly, which is a clear transmission that I had said, the true king, the true king stands for justice, or else he forfeits his crown. Simple. Simple, you stand for justice, or you forfeit your crown. And that simplified things for me. Because even with those hundreds of thousands of words that are out there, about the cases and the events, there's also stories on the other side. The actual stories. Of course, the internet has made stories into other stories that aren't even true, that anybody is actually even accusing you of, but that's another story. But there's yes, there's other people. And I could try and go down this, and be one of the people who's litigating by that feeling. But what I fundamentally arrived at ultimately was okay, the true king stands for justice. What is justice? Justice is that everybody gets their day, gets their day to address the claims against them. We must have that. We must. We must. Our everything. All of justice falls apart. And we have this idea that the vigilante is the way to create justice. And in some cases, yes, the police are corrupt. And so the vigilante needs to take justice into its own hands. But that's only in the case, in which there's such systemic corruption, that the justice system itself can no longer serve. And there was a day, there was a time when that existed because of the suppression of the voice of women. There was a time where the whole system was injustice, and racially as well. The system of justice was broken, was broken, completely broken. And so, people had to take justice into their own hands. And so, I understand the impetus for this based on the historical context. But we cannot continue to live this way where the mob just gets to come in and declare something, and no one gets to respond because of the onslaught of information that comes out. And then that person has to pay the steepest price. I know and I've felt you, and I know how much pain that you've been through because of all this. I know all of this, without ever having your day in court, your day to actually address directly the criticisms and attacks that you face. So, you have to put your stuff online and then other people put their stuff online, and nothing ever communicates. And meanwhile, look, I won't summarize that. But this is a good chance to turn to you just to talk about, like how this has affected your life. Your trajectory in Israel, your ability to reach the world with this message, this transmission that obviously is so incredibly powerful, and serves the goddess at large, and how it's unjust, that you haven't been able to have your opportunity to have this moment where you could say all right, here it is, now we're talking to each other. Now let's find the truth together.

MARC: I have been silent about this for so long, because it's so hard to know how to speak. And I love words. I come from Buddhism, which is a place where I practice at times, and I love dearly, is about silence. And the lineage is about words. So I'm madly in love with the beauty of words. But there's a place in which words just can't go. And so, I'll try my best. And yes, of course, you're right, Aubrey, that Sally Kempton, and Ken Wilber and Daniel Schmachtenberger and a host of, dozens of just fabulously beautiful people have evaluated, written about, and we did the words because we had to. Even the words, I didn't really put up in a serious way till I had no choice. I prefer to stay in silence. And I broke silence and we created this Who is Marc Gafni place, just because we owed people the words and we owed people a way to follow and understand. But if I can step out of all that, it's almost impossible for me to explain an experience where you want to find everybody, you want to love everybody, you want to be in devotion to everyone you can. And you know that there's a certain amount of people who are good people, wonderful people, that you won't get to, that you can't find because you're never going to be able to meet each other. Because in this new structure, we have this digital world in which information is distributed, the ways it's distributed, and optimized by salaciousness, and negativity. And there's no actual meeting that every single person, literally every single person that you meet, before you ever get to talk to them if you do, before you're ever in a room together, they will have gone through because such is the nature of the internet, a kind of bathing in what Sally Kempton once called a lake of poison. And you only get to talk to them afterwards. And I mean, every time if I can, with permission, just to be, I'll say to KK, I in general, don't do parties. And we happened to talk about parties recently. I just don't do parties, right? But at this point in my life, I actually am intensely private. I meet the circle of people that I work with, which is a few dozen people at the core of the think tank, and Zach and Daniel, and just a few dozen incredibly wonderful men and women who are all just the most sensitive, beautiful, powerful people I know, and gifted. They're a unique self-symphony, and we're working together. But I rarely step out of that. Because I know that if I walk in someplace, and I kind of let the great, beautiful Eros of the lineage out a little bit, people will feel it, they'll immediately go home excited. They'll immediately Google me. And then I always, just in my body, and I actually hold a very deep privacy because of that.

AUBREY: And I understand that, because when we first met, I actually didn't know googling. I didn't know Google searching. There was a miscommunication about someone who was supposed to inform me of this before the podcast. It didn't happen. I went straight into the erotic and the holy. Finished that holy work and--

MARC: What a time we had. 

AUBREY: So excited to meet you here at another room in this fine hotel here that we love in Miami. Went through this whole thing and then I was hit with it. So it was actually, I got a different experience which I feel very blessed to have gotten because I don't know if I would have made it through the lake. It was great, it was this interesting gift from She, you could say, in which I didn't have to do that. But then I go out and I tell the story. And I say, you won't believe this transmission that's come through. And I've been seeking spiritual wisdom in every different way. And I'll say, this is unbelievable. And then I've seen someone right there, right there on the phone, Google search you. And I've seen what comes up in the image searches and the other searches, and I'm just seeing their faces go blank, and I felt my own heart drop. And just be like, wow.

MARC: Yes. I mean, two things here. They're two separate things. And one, what comes up now is fierceness and you can feel it in the tone. We have to actually create a world in which we restructure the digital, in which we restructure, I was watching with KK, because we were preparing for a series of talks in which we were going to do a deep reading of public culture through movies. And we looked at two clips. One of them was Tom Hanks in "Saving Private Ryan" which is an incredible clip in which you see these boys. Remember, we saw, love, these 18-year-old boys. Montana, Manhattan, Kansas, swarming Omaha Beach. Men, right? And when you talk about the demonization of men, you've got to think of those men. These beautiful boys, knowing many of them were going to die. And what are you willing to die for? What were they dying for? They were dying for, and I'm going to use an unpopular word and a word that's been rightly critiqued, but still stands for the American way. For the beauty of the United States. And by beauty, I don't mean apple pie, with all due respect to apples, but I mean, I understand. Or baseball, right? And I'm taking my son who's 11 for two incredible days of baseball, and we got the best seats behind the dugout. Kansas City against the San Francisco Giants on the 14th and the 15th. You're all welcome. So, baseball is good. But what America stands for is this huge leap in evolutionary love. She, Lady Justice, that were held in the arms of justice, right? That is the way we gather information, the way we evaluate people, the way we render not just in a court, but in the public square, in the public commons. We've got this tragedy of the commons, which is unimaginable. And what was it that the jurist Blackstone said? He said better 100 guilty men go free than one guilty man be hung. And Jefferson said, better a thousand. KK was just relating, she was just in Mexico. And we've heard it from many people in deep love and honor to Mexico, and from so many friends that I have heard, they're in Mexico and something goes wrong. And they want to go to the local authorities and something was stolen. They realized that the local authorities were somehow involved in that story. And all of a sudden, they realize, "Oh, we're not in America." And so, how we evaluate information. And she's blessed me, Aubrey. In other words, meaning, I'm standing and I'm strong because of her. She's raised me up, she's been inside of me, and she broke my heart open. And she said to me, she whispered in my ear, "You have to refuse to participate in any sense of being canceled." And so I've refused. And I've just gone on. But the experience of actually being mediated by an algorithm that's owned privately, that selects for salaciousness, that doesn't allow for conversation, right? And actually, everything that happened in the key moment where we're kind of a set of ostensible false complaints, there weren't actually even any complaints registered anyplace that was also an untruth. But when that happened, it all happened on the internet. In other words, there was never any conversation, there was never anything. And so, we have to liberate ourselves. We have to, if you will, seduce ourselves, to arouse ourselves to justice. And liberate ourselves from what we might call kind of the pseudo ecstasies of the digital, of Twitter threads. The second movie that KK and I were watching was "Temple of Doom." Remember, love? And you recommend, you said we have to watch this. I said, really? Do we have to? "No, no, we have to. We have to watch." I said, okay. So, we look at "Temple of Doom". And there's these incredible two scenes of this mob, this religious mob, serving a corrupt vision, which they rip someone's heart out and offer this person up. And the mob is just completely entranced. That pseudo ecstasy that violates human personhood, that violates fair principles of information gathering. And I've said, most of the issues on the web, the two core ones that are most circulated from 40 years ago, just to get the context. And a set of issues that the same group of people, all the people that were involved in these sets of issues all know each other, and they're all connected. There's not a kind of pattern. There's a kind of what Daniel calls false pattern recognition, there's collapsed timelines. But none of that is the issue now. But I've said time and again, that I would at any time or day, meet anyone in a mediated, safe context, face to face. Let's do genuine information gathering, genuine fact-checking. And let's create resolution, let's create transformation. And of course, there's been no takers. And so, I'm not going to talk about anyone. In other words, unless someone would anew launch an attack, in which case I would respond fiercely with full information. But unless that happens, I'm not going to do to people what they did to me, meaning talk about them without them in the room, without face to face. Anything that needed to be said I've said on Who is Marc Gafni, on that website. But oh my god, how do we expect Israelis and Palestinians, Hutus and Tutsis, how do we expect people who have hurt each other in such brutal ways, we expect them to make peace. And yet we can't find a way to heal our own pain of Eros. And we have to.

AUBREY: There's a few things that come up when you say this, of course. This scene from "The Temple of Doom" is not just fiction. This happened in Salem with the witches. This happened in the Inquisition. This happened in the McCarthyism hunt for communists, and that witch hunt has happened in all kinds of crowds of mobs that lynched and hung and did atrocious things. And to identify that there's the dark, sadistic pseudo ecstasy of tearing someone apart. That has been a sad and tragic part of our history. Like this exists except now it's gone, in many ways virtual, and it doesn't mean that occasionally, occasionally, those mobs come in a justified way. But the fact that it is never justified because it's reifying injustice itself. 

MARC: Yes! Perhaps I can gently, and we've talked about this, offer a distinction. How do you distinguish? Sometimes you need a groundswell. The internet has value. The internet, for example, allowed people who couldn't get their story told because the structures of the gatekeepers of power, they didn't have access. You can actually bypass--

AUBREY: The gatekeepers of power were corrupt themselves, biased racially or sexually or any other way.

MARC: We'd hoped that the Internet would then give voice, but we didn't anticipate, and the innocence of internet that, actually, you're also bypassing integrity on the internet, you're also creating a culture which is toxic, and you're actually weaponizing personal story, not allowing the structures of Lady Justice, of she, to actually create resolution, to create fact-checking, to create information-gathering. Let's go back a step, just two steps. So just talk about Salem, because you spoke about Salem. What was Salem? It started in Europe, and then came to the United States. We're talking about women. According to some historical evaluation, millions of women. According to others, hundreds of thousands of women burnt at the stake, because their sexuality was somehow post-conventional because their healing capacities didn't fit into the doctrines of the church. What would happen is there'd be an accusation. The pseudo-ecstasies of the digital spread through the town. There were often hidden agendas, political agendas, creating the accusation. We know that historically in scholarship, to serve other political agendas. So it actually wasn't what it looked like. It was serving subterranean agendas. There was never one accusation. The way it always worked was, all of a sudden, you had a dozen eyewitness testimonies of a woman being a witch. Now just notice the demonization. A witch means you're demonized, you're dehumanized. When the context was religious, you used witch. Today, on the internet, we use narcissists or sociopaths. there's a whole language, which is our secular psychological language for witch.

AUBREY: Or predator. 

MARC: Or predator. We diagnose, the same way they religiously diagnose. All of a sudden, the woman was without recourse. It's shocking. It's a shocking horror. Salem reenacts itself in Twitter threads all the time.

AUBREY: I have another personal story about this. So I was apprenticed in a particular type of bodywork from my teacher, Poranguí. In combination with some light medicine, psychedelic medicine, I'm able to go in and enter the somatic body, and also the etheric body of the individual, that I'm giving the bodywork to. I did a session for my sister Blu, who's been on this podcast. Again, this sounds all magical and maybe woowoo to some people, but this is what I felt. She's one of the most magical beings, next to my wife, that I've ever met. I could feel in her body, I could feel the flames that were coming up from her feet as she was tied to a stake in some past life and the flames ripping her flesh and moving up slowly, slowly, from her toes, up her legs, tearing her flesh off of her bones, going up and up and up. I could feel it, I could feel it. This is not some distant past, this is hundreds of years ago, that this was happening. Yes, our digital version is not that. It's not that. It's softer than that, thankfully; thank god, thank goddess. It's the same energy just applied in a different way, not that heinous and violent. But it's that same result, which is there must be a scapegoat, there must be someone to pay the price for this feeling of whatever it was, free-floating anxiety, the scapegoating, the problem that could be solved through violence.

MARC: Oh my god. The early feminists so beautifully wrote that rape, the horror of rape is not only to the body, it's the rape of a soul. They talked about the rape of a name. These powerful women who brought this new wave of the emergence of the feminine into being, when you think of what it means to have your name abused or your name raped or to have sexual abuse, meaning the abuse of the sexual, through telling falsehoods about it, through distorting it, through passing it through a prism of memory, that experience is unimaginable. My experience 20 years ago, at a key moment, was that my baby that I had raised for years was killed and I couldn't even mourn because I was accused of killing her. 

AUBREY: And your baby was your name?

MARC: My baby was the Dharma. My baby was the Dharma, was the teaching, was the lineage, my baby was everything that was moving in me to share about Eros. The only way; and KK, we've talked about this so many times lovin', Aubrey, the only way I survived it was that she held me. I prayed not to become bitter. She granted me that. I'm so ecstatic and so grateful. I remember there was a certain moment, I was at Sally Kempton's home. She was writing, I think, her column for Yoga Journal in the next room. I heard this voice, and I had run into silence, I had nothing left to say. I thought it's just too painful, I can't teach anymore. It was 2011 and I just got to kind of another round of the same people and the same thing. This voice said, it said, we live in a world of outrageous pain. The only response to outrageous pain is outrageous love. I don't remember what happened, but it was a two-hour teaching, I don't remember any of it. And Sally, who always does what she's doing, and ignores what I'm doing in the next room, when I'm visiting, I take notes on the whole thing and brought it in, and gave it to me. I was just filled with this intense gratitude. This next sentence that I'm feeling it's going to seem to be not believable, but it's true, I wouldn't trade any of the pain. KK said the wound becomes the gift. In other words, had I not gone through this, I would have been a talented, gifted dude, running around, probably a little bit of an asshole, doing my thing, doing my teaching, too self-involved, too excited about the teaching and she ripped me apart. That's Collie, she ripped me apart, she just ripped me to shreds. I remember in 2006, at that point, I hadn't yet recovered the information, which we did, in the end, to disprove the false claims but we recovered it all, and then we were able to do that. But at that point, I didn't know if I'd be able to recover the material that had been deleted from my computer. So I didn't know if I'd ever be able to recover.

AUBREY: And these were, just to get people clear, there were accusations when you were in Israel. I don't want to go down the rabbit hole. But just for people to understand, they were covering the information.

MARC: That's right. There were a set of claims, two people specifically, when I was in Israel. There was an enormous email thread that would falsify the claims, an enormous amount of email had been intentionally deleted from my computer.

AUBREY: And these were about consensual relationships that you have.

MARC: These were about consensual and loving and mutual. We were able to recover all the material in great honor to the people who I still love and honor and wish the best for. I'm not going to respond to them or speak about them. I wish them mad blessings. But at that point, I didn't know if it'd be recovered. My name was so devastated. There was no ordinary place to live. I just couldn't live. And so either I was going to die or she had to create a place, someplace other than this world where she would hold me. I remember being at a restaurant in the middle of the spirit, I went by myself to sit and just think. The waitress comes over to me and she said, "You look sad." She was just kind, she smiled. My whole heart just burst into tears. And she was like, "Wow." She broke me open. Every time in the last 15, 17 years when the normal structures of self would seek to rebuild themselves in me, because we forget very quickly, she'd break me open again. She's been hard on me. Aubrey, on everything that's holy, if I could press a button and not have it happen, I'd not have it happen because of all the people that got hurt. But there's another button that I would never press because of the insane gifts. Yeah, that's it.

AUBREY: And again there's the story, and there's so many resources that we can link to in the show notes for you to tell the story, but one of the things that struck me when I was rereading the stories again last night, was one of the principal accusations. They'll link your name to pedophile, which is one of the strongest and justifiably so, it's one of the most heinous acts and every partner I've been with, has experienced some version of that. Every, is an exaggeration but the vast majority have experienced and I feel their pain, and it's the most heinous thing that I've ever seen. When Tim Ballard of OUR Rescue came on the podcast and was talking about what he was doing for the sex-trafficking field, that was before I had Onnit, and I was like, "This is the money that I have. Do this. Help this. Fight this." Even though he was only dealing with dozens of people and not the thousands and tens of thousands or millions that suffer? Of course, of course, it touches, and that's been the name that's been linked to you. And it's been because when you were 19, you had a relationship with a 14-year-old, so someone who was a freshman in high school, you just graduated high school--

MARC: On the way over here, I called my counsel, legally, and I just asked, "Do I have permission to talk about this?" And he said yes. There's always constraints in talking about things. And again, I wish this person only blessings. And there's a fierceness. Outrageous love has outrage to it. If I can, with your permission KK, just to tell you a little story, I was in Salt Lake, and I'll answer it directly, I was in Salt Lake and I came to Salt Lake after I left Israel during the time where I was just recovering my energy and recovering my computer and just gathering the information to establish truth. I went to the person who has a friend, who's actually the Chief Justice of Utah, set me up with who he thought was the most talented polygrapher in America. I did all these things, everything you could do. And at that point, a dear friend was with me with her two kids, Delete. We didn't really know anyone. There was this family that did these Friday night Sabbath dinners. Delete had heard about them and we got invited. I literally couldn't talk then. I couldn't talk. I was tearing all the time. I couldn't chant. We went for one or two weeks, and the third week, the man called me. This is before we had put anything up on the web, this was in the period of just silence and waiting. We didn't know what was going to happen. We didn't know if I could recover my computer and all of that. The man calls me over and he says, "Please, come talk to me," the host. He says, "I can feel you. I love you, brother but you've got to leave right now." I said, "I've got to leave right now?" He says, "You have to leave right now," he says, "Because the women are afraid. They went online and they saw that word." Where that word comes from, it's a horrific word. We all, of course, stand with broken hearts. I was just out of high school. I had a relationship that involved, essentially, teenage necking for a few months with someone who was in the beginning of high school. My version of what happened was confirmed by this polygraph.

AUBREY: No sex.

MARC: No, no, no. Teenage necking. There's nothing even vaguely... 

AUBREY: It's an old fashioned word, so I don't exactly know what that is but making out--

MARC: Nothing below the waist, nothing approaching anything vaguely approaching sex. Not only no sex, but nothing even digital, nothing. And at that time, in New York, there was no law against that. It wasn't illegal even, to be clear. That didn't even enter our mind. That, I only know 40 years later, but it didn't even occur to us. It wasn't even in the space between us. What was in the space between us were Orthodox Jewish laws about whether you were allowed to have physical contact before marriage, that was in the space between us. But nothing else was even in the space between us. This person wrote me the most heart-rending beautiful letter, when I actually ended our relationship. I ended our relationship because I was committed to a certain kind of orthodoxy. The age gap was such that there wasn't enough time to wait to get married. I didn't know how to handle that and I felt committed to this vision. I said her name, and I said, "I think we have to end." There was a nickname that I used for her and she used for me. She wrote me the most beautiful heart-rending letter about how we needed to be together. It was actually about the existence of that letter that I did the polygraph. That was it. That was the whole story. There was no sense then that it was a story. It wasn't a story then. In retrospect, by the way, I regret the relationship. Who knew that it could cause pain in that kind of way? We were both deeply in the space of just gently loving each other. We would walk through the Met in New York and look at paintings. A whole series of things obviously happened on her side and political adversaries, very early on, almost 40 years ago hijacked her. Gradually, over the decades, the story changed and shifted. Her version changed a few times and morphed and it became something entirely different. But that's actually what happened.

AUBREY: I can just put myself in the position of knowing that there was a letter, there was an actual letter that was written, not an email back then, a real letter. I could just imagine you being like, "Fuck, I wish I kept that letter."

MARC: Totally, brother. I want to go to a different place. What happens is, regularly, I will get some feedback from someone saying, which is clear in their eyes that the story they heard is that 55-year-old Dr. Gafni was involved with a 13-year-old. That's how the story is bandied around. The story is bandied around and has shown up all over the internet that way, where Dr. Gafni or. Rabbi Gafni, 50, 60, 40, 45 involved with a 13-year-old. In other words, the fact that I was a teenager right out of high school, and she was in the beginning of high school, the story was this very, very, innocent, virtually chaste encounter is lost. It gets repeated again and again, in the grist for the mill, of the pseudo ecstasies of the digital. At a certain point, you can't even find your way.

AUBREY: Eeven 13 versus 14, it's just adjusting the age a little bit slightly.

MARC: Again, I don't want to go into any details. We actually had to do the hard things, hire a private detective, find out the right birthday to remember when it started, to find evidence. We did all the hard work on this. All I'd like to do is; which I don't think will happen in this lifetime, and I've offered it for decades, is sit in a mediated context. It's beyond tragic. It's beyond painful. I apologize for this, but I have to say it's also not okay. The Divine Feminine doesn't live in women as opposed to men. The transgender movement has a good point. Their point is it's not about boy-girl. It's not a boy-girl gender issue. The Divine Feminine lives in me and lives in you and lives in your holy partner, V and in KK and in men and women all over the place. The fact that a person is in a male or female body doesn't give them license. There's also a fierceness to this. It's not okay. It's not okay. We have to also stand for justice, and for she, and for serving Lady Justice, and not get lost in a cheap grace or cheap tenderness, which doesn't hold the fierceness of these boys dying in the beach of Omaha, for the sake of justice, for the sake of fairness, for the sake of integrity. Think about if it was my daughter, who was falsely accused or your daughter, or our sister, or our brother, or our mother.

AUBREY: Or my son.

MARC: Or our sons. On the one hand, I've refused; because she's allowed me to, she's, whispered, she's helped me; to become bitter. I'm not just tender on this. I'm also fierce for the sake of all of the people who are in prison today who don't have funds to prove that they're innocent. I was blessed. I was blessed that people helped me gather information, people created resources that allowed me to recover a computer, to do all sorts of things that the average person can't do. KK, you remember I was staying with Michael. I was staying with Michael Beckwith. It was 2007 and Michael's a wonderful man. He has a church in LA, called Agape. Michael and I were going over the story. Michael looked at me, and he said, "You are such a white boy." He says, "This happens to the brothers all the time. But you have the resources, you're going to walk through this." He says, "Do you know how many brothers I know who haven't walked through it?" There were hidden stories and hidden actors and accusations made, and they couldn't afford to recover the evidence, they didn't have people or a chief justice, who could put them in touch with the best polygrapher. I was privileged, madly privileged, and I'm so grateful, but the amount of people today who are destroyed in the digital, or in the court system, because they can't actually defend their good name, they just don't have the resources. They're poor, they don't have the right relationships. What I said to Barbara Marx Hubbard, just this great woman and fierce teacher of conscious evolution, and she really stood with me in this so deeply and so beautifully, she stood with KK and with myself. Barbara said to me, at one point, it was a frustrated moment. Barbara used to like to have, with KK, they'd have a glass of wine every day at five. It's five o'clock, it's time for wine.

AUBREY: Five o'clock somewhere.

MARC: It's five o'clock somewhere. It's time for wine. Barbara said, "Marc, if only we didn't have to deal with this? I" just had this flash of clarity, and KK did, and Barbara, at the same time and Zach Stein. Actually, I just got clear, this is not a bug in the system. It's a feature. We had to go through this. This is part of She. This is part of Lady Justice. It's hard but this is where it is. And the work here. This is the Dharma. We're the Dharma. We're the Dharma. It's how we hold each other.

AUBREY: There's a couple of things that come to mind. One is, I think, in popular culture right now, we're seeing something that started similarly as accusations that flourished online in the Johnny Depp-Amber Heard trial. That happened many years ago. And we haven't seen Johnny Depp in a movie for many years. He files a lawsuit, $50 million defamation and then eventually it works its way to the court and somehow they made a deal where the full trial would be actually shown on TV. Now, all of the evidence is coming through and they're having this moment. It doesn't guarantee that the jurors or whatever will find the truth. But, at least, the stories are being told and met and cross-examined. We're actually seeing something, which is, "Oh, the story wasn't quite so simple." At the same time, we're seeing the weaponization of memes that actually come out. I, even myself, found myself aware of all of these issues in the meta-perspective victim, because I'm not watching the trial. I don't have time to watch the trial but there was an incredibly hilarious meme that involved Amber Heard presumably shitting on Johnny Depp's side of the bed, and they set the theme of it was Human Fecal Matter to the Metallica song, "Nothing Else Matters". It was so hilarious. It made its way around and then that shifted my perspective, but it shouldn't have. That was my limited interaction and it was linked to this seemingly ridiculous thing. Even in the instance, where actually there is a trial that's actually happening, where all of the information is out, still the internet can skew different things in a different way.

MARC: And KK, maybe will speak, because K, I think you Johnny. Johnny Depp is the ultimate privileged person in the sense of having the funds to be able to do this. I'm not tracking it and I know it's a complex story. But just to look at that thing, the average human being, man or woman, can't do what Johnny Depp did. It's not available. He had this insane privilege of being able to, at least ,convene it and he spent $30 million, $40 million on lawyers. One of the reasons I didn't take certain courses at certain points, because I didn't have a couple million dollars to burn. It turned out that there was a claim made that there were complaints made at the police, which turned out not to be true. For 10 years, that claim was made. We actually hired a person in Israel 10 years later. The police rejected the complaints, there never were any complaints, but we thought there were for a time by these two people. And at that time, we thought that was the case back in 2006, and just got the implications of that. Because of that, I didn't visit Israel for a decade. I missed my son's wedding. Even the claim of complaints was false but at that time, I looked into what would it take to engage this. And I was told you need $2 million to $3 million to be able to have the sets of people you need, in order to engage this properly and I didn't have to $3 million. Instead, I went silent and put up a website and did the path I could do. So just even invoking Johnny, all the important ways you did, it also invokes who's got $30 million to blow? KK?

KRISTINA: Yeah, no, no. I get it.

AUBREY: I think, really what we're talking about is, so what is, ultimately, the way forward in this? I think another big issue for me is that, knowing that, to actually, a lot of the Torah, a lot of the lineage is about these cases of law, and how things are adjudicated, and then the genius ways in which certain people have adjudicated and these beautiful stories and we'll tell those stories, maybe in another podcast on the lineage, but ultimately, nobody is going to be able to be in that seat to take the full amount of time to do this... Some of your close allies have and some other people have done their best in this. But, to me, ultimately what is important, is what I experience from both of you and to know that, yes, I'm not going to be able to go knock on everybody's house, door, and talk to them and talk to everybody and pore over every different thing. And most people listening to this aren't. In all cases, most people aren't going to be able to find that, unless you're watching every moment of the Heard-Depp trial, like the jurors are. There has to be a little bit of well, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. For me, I have the anthro-ontological feeling, that thing that I feel in myself, when I experience you and I experience you that says, okay, I trust, I trust by the way that I see you not only interact with KK but I interact with every server that we've had in a restaurant and every different interaction, how you've been so conscientious in loving of my wife when she's been around, and all of these different pieces and also, to know that, for the last 10 years, you guys have been inseparably together. This idea that this is a danger that needs to be caged and prevented and more restrictions and more bindings and straitjackets around your word and your expression, that that must continue does not feel anywhere close to justice. There is a message that you've been cultivating from deep readings of thousands-year-old texts that you've brought to light and a message, the transmissions that come from the heart from both of you that need to be heard, in my feeling, that have a significant impact for the world. I know that I'll get criticized for this podcast and other podcasts. I know that, but there's this deep trust that here we are, I deeply trust what's happening between you, what I feel and also there's a lot that makes sense in the past, but I'm not in the position to just rubber-stamp it and say I know for sure because I don't. Until there is someone who dedicates their time and their profession and their life to that thing, which doesn't seem like it's going to happen, there is just dive in that people can dive in as much as they want. But it's just this strong sense, what must happen is we must move forward and be able to revive these lineage wisdoms and these teachings of how to heal and bring them forward in the world, even if it means that we take arrows. And let me just say this, eight years ago, I'm sitting in my office at Onnit and we had a partnership with 10th Planet Jiu-Jitsu, where we actually owned one of the franchises. We had an assistant jiu-jitsu coach, and that person got fired by our head jiu-jitsu coach. This is not my division. I'm a white belt. I can roll around and have some fun, but I don't know that much about jiu-jitsu, a little bit, I don't know enough. So I allowed that thing to operate as it should. He gets let go. Onnit hosts an invitational tournament for jiu-jitsu. I had interacted with this assistant jiu-jitsu coach, only a few short times. One was actually a kendo match, where we have our shiny, our bamboo swords, and our helmets and the whole thing and we squared off in kendo in the big gym that we have there with a crowd watching and someone taking photos. There were very, very few interactions that I had with him, period. I see these posts coming out on Facebook because our head jiu-jitsu instructor said that he wasn't fit to compete in the Onnit invitational and he posts a story that the reason why he wasn't invited to the Onnit Invitational was because I made sexual advances towards him and he said no, he said no and so I barred him from competing. He posts all of these posts, and I'm fucking flabbergasted. As just as strange fucking insult, he's like, "After I whipped him in kendo." And I'm like, "Bro, that is not how that kendo match went." And that was a little bit of my own ego going, "You son of a bitch, twice. One time for serious and one time like "come on, man." My whole body drained of blood and I'm like, "What in the fuck?" And then there's a jiu-jitsu blog who follows this guy and they want to write an article. So what do I do? Do I talk to him? Do I not talk to him? Do I address it? Do I not address it? It was this wild few days. I call up Joe and I'm like, "The fucking craziest shit happened, bah, blah, blah." this whole thing happened. I'm fortunate, this guy was 6'3", 230, he's a big ass dude and I am not gay or bisexual. Mad Love and respect to those people on the path. It's just not in my nature. Because of that, perhaps because he was a man, perhaps because people had some kind of faith in me actually authentically expressing my sexuality, the thing, it rose in this moment and then lots of people chimed in about his mental instability, et cetera and then it died. However, the jiu-jitsu blog published an article. There's an article somewhere on the web about this strange, strange story that occurred. It sent a shockwave of fear and vulnerability. In this case, I was very lucky, very, very lucky. Nothing came of it but it was absolutely unfounded in any way. But the vulnerable, the vulnerable position that people are in with the injustice system that we have, is immense. I think that's the greater purpose of this, is not even the single events that happened with me or you or you. We have to move forward, where there is actual justice, that there is a place where people cannot be subject to this because I know so many people who are carrying this low-level stress, myself included. Of course, we've all done things that we wish we would have done differently. One time in my life, in Russia, I was unfaithful to my girlfriend, and I told her. Am I proud of that? No, I'm not proud of my infidelity that day. I'm not, I'm not proud of that. There's times where I told Whitney everything was okay and then it wasn't okay and I got mad at her and I hurt her because of how mad I got, just verbally, of course. There's all kinds of ways in which I wish I would have done something better. The truth is, is that I always did my fucking best. I've always honored and revered and worshiped the goddess in all people, men and women, whether it's an employee that was being terminated, or that. But that moment sent this fear, this fear of what could happen, and that still exists, that still exists. We have to create a place where justice can hold, and that people can trust that what is true will prevail, or at least, if it's undecided that they will not be incriminated. Innocent before proven guilty, there's wisdom in those words.

MARC: It's so beautiful. KK and I were talking about it on the way over. Our dear friend who's the mother of my son, Mariana Caplan, wrote an article and we were, of course, in dialogue when she wrote it in 2009. We talked about this then to try and establish people do get confused. So I just want to maybe offer something gentle as, or moving towards closing in the service of justice. So how do you discern? How do you discern, how do you know the difference between, what is a legitimate spontaneous outrage or, for example, when I went through a smear campaign X amount of years ago, there was a completely orchestrated behind the scenes outrage, which was made to appear spontaneous. How do you distinguish? In that article, Mariana offered a number of distinctions, and I'll just, very briefly, just in service of she, of justice, one, if you've got a whole explosion happening on the internet or any place and action is taken before there's genuine investigation; meaning someone's fired, removed, irreversible action is taken, before there's actually investigation, before both sides have heard, before there's actually a face to face encounter, so that's litmus test one; if that's happening, something's wrong. Two, if there's new information, are people willing to look at new information? Two. Three, is there demonization? Look at the quality and tone of the accusations. Can you feel the goodness of them or is there this very intense demonization and dehumanization taking place as a quality? Four, is anyone who challenges demonization attacked? If you challenge the demonization, you're a heretic. It's a kind of a religious demonization. And if you challenge the demonization, you're or heretic; four. And five, is there a principle in place in which this can never be solved, this is going to go on forever? There's no way for it to be liberated, resolved, healed. So if those five are in place, Mariana pointed towards them, then you can be pretty sure that there's something else happening here. A gentleman named Dolan, wrote something, which was actually very good about how false flags work. He basically pointed out that a false flag which happens in the collective space, there's a traumatic event, number one. Number two, it's spread immediately to the internet. Number three, judgment's immediately rendered before an investigation. Number four, anyone, same criteria, anyone who challenged the judgment is somehow an infertile. And number five, all the anomalies that don't make sense are shunted aside. These are two sets of, one from Dolan and one from Mariana Caplan, but they're helpful. And on who is Marc Gafni, there's something called playlist for, where I tried to in about 75 videos. At first I'd talk about every single detail because I didn't want to run from it. At a certain point, I said, "Okay. I was silent for 10 years, I need to step into this." And 15 people wrote very heavily-researched articles, but I also did just personally, a long list of videos, because I felt an obligation to speak for justice and tried to offer intense sets of distinctions that can guide us in the kind of, what would I call it, the sensuality of sensemaking? I understand why people get confused. It's not bad people getting confused. It's confusing. We actually need an orientation to actually find our way. I found both Dolan's distinctions about false flags and Mariana Caplan's distinctions very helpful. 

AUBREY: In hearing that list that you shared, I think one of the ones that I really want to double-click on is there must be an end. There must be a resolution to this. This is one of the elements of the injustice is that there is no end, there is no resolution, it just goes on, perpetually in the internet of things. It's a very important thing to get to, because, at a certain point, regardless of innocence or guilt, there still must be an end. And sometimes, potentially, the guilt is so severe, that actually, it's life in prison, there is no end, et cetera. I'm not disclaiming that as a viable alternative for the most heinous act.

MARC: Serial murderer.

AUBREY: In which case, the end is the end of their life. But in these other cases, with the way that the internet is, we're denied that ability to have an end and also the opportunity, which is the fabric of a more beautiful world, which is redemption, forgiveness. And in the break, Kristina, one of the things that you mentioned, for you who, suffered real abuse, and I've seen this too, being a fly on the wall in MDMA-assisted psychotherapy journeys, that I've been able fortunate enough to witness, that as you go through the whole arc of explication, "Holy shit, I didn't know this happened. Oh my God, I didn't deserve this. I didn't deserve this." And then, "Fuck you, motherfucker. Fuck you." And then, "Okay, I wouldn't be who I am without it." And then the resolution is, "I forgive you." In your journey, did your journey have a similar arc to that? 

KRISTINA: Yeah, exactly, that archetypal arc. I realized at the end, that the only way to actually really liberate and free myself was to forgive him. And part of that, I went back into his journey and to his pain and his suffering, and I could understand the complexity and the pain and the loneliness, and the hardship that he went through, and I released it, and I released him and I released myself. He had passed and so I had to do a kind of etheric reckoning and find him and we sat down and talked. You think, woohoo, but I realized that he gave me a gift, as strange as that is. Yeah, I freed myself. My karma this lifetime was to come back and heal this. And by the grace of Goddess, I found my way through, and it was through forgiveness and liberation and redemption. All I can say is hallelujah. It's just a profound journey that ended in grace.

MARC: I know we're closing, it just is also really, really important to say that, I said yes to KK at that time a decade ago. We spent a certain amount of time in that form of relationship and did deep work. Of course, in this really beautiful way, the student became the teacher. KK taught me so much. In our process of doing very, very deep work in deep realms, the way she held herself, the way she literally enfleshed the Dharma, the muse she was to me. When we started the next part of our relationship, the way she would write love notes is she would send me a passage from radical Kabbalah, this large scholarly work I'd written that she had devoured, and then sought in ways that I didn't see. So she'd send me a text that I'd written that I'd forgotten and then she'd interpret the text that I had written in a way that hadn't even occurred to me. And then so both in the world of a body, of embodiment and of soma, and in the world of just this deep wise muse, KK enfleshed everything in a way that I couldn't do. And you've brought love to the teaching something that I never could have done on my best day. We moved from that early relationship into a very, very deep partnership, in which we're teaching each other every day. KK is incredibly kind and beautiful and fierce. Just stop by one day, she's fierce, she's a fierce expression with a fierce sense of what should be and what needs to be.You've worked with us, we've worked together on this phenomenology of sexuality, the different conversation. I'd write and KK would critique it and say, "No, no, that doesn't feel right or that doesn't feel right," or, "Look at this." She'd find some source and say, "Read this." Then we would talk about it. The old world of teachers and students has value. We need teachers and students, but really, we need to be spiritual friends to each other. KK is my dearest friend and partner and teacher. The deepest reverence and honor, my love. I just wanted to say that.

AUBREY: You guys co-authored a book, "A Return to Eros", which is a phenomenal piece of work. One thing that's somewhat related to that, but also something that I've noticed is, we have this very interesting culture where sex is actually worse or underneath violence. You see this in video game culture. You can have the most violent video game where people are blowing each other's heads off, chopping off body parts, whatever and parents will look at their kids playing it and they'll be like, "Cool. Good on you." And then Janet Jackson's nipple falls out in the Super Bowl, and it's an absolute national crisis. You see this also in the way in which there are many, many celebrity athletes that have multiple counts of violent domestic abuse who are not canceled, who are still selling pay per views, who are still underneath the bright lights. And sure, there's often a moment of that but it's a very strange world, in which... And also, I want to say that I understand that there is something particularly heinous about rape, particularly, particularly heinous about that particular particularly violent, an intimately violent violation. This is not to undermine that in the intensity and potentially the good reasons for why that exists. But it's just a strange thing that even the healthy expression of sexuality, parents say, no, no, no, no. And not even sexuality, just the female form. But violence is somehow given a free pass. I wonder if elements of the war, industrial kind of mindset, or what it is. I know, this is a little bit of a misdirection, but since I have you both here on the podcast, just to understand from your perspective, how we got to this place where there seems to be this strange world in which violence is somehow better than freely-expressed sexuality.

MARC: KK?

KRISTINA: No, I'll let you go ahead and speak into it. But one of the big topics we talk about in the book actually is the murder of Eros. And the book is about the reclamation and the book's called "A Return to Eros. Just to open that up for you, Marc. 

MARC: We have a dear friend, who's actually a vice president of the think tank, The Center for Integral Wisdom, Warren Farrell. Warren wrote one of the introductions to "Return to Eros". He said to me that one of the reasons he wrote it is because of something that really speaks directly to what you just said. He said, "If a parent walks by their two kids watching television and they see they're watching this horrifically violent movie, they just walk through and say, 'Thank God the kids are taken care of.' But if they walk through, and the kids happen to turn to a channel, where there is a revealed breast, or something, which is... Parents immediately come in, turn off the television. Everyone's like, "What happened?" It's really what "A Return to Eros" is about. We've demonized the sexual because it's the most powerful force we have and we have no sexual narrative. What "A Return to Eros" does is trying to outline what are the four major sexual narratives, and why they're insufficient. We don't have a story of our sexing that's equal to our sexual experience. In that collapse of the story, there's a collapse of sexuality. We demonize male sexuality, we split off feminine sexuality, and we create a culture of men who harass when they shouldn't, women who also sometimes harass when they shouldn't, men and women who are split off from the goodness of their own sexing. That's tragic, and unless we reclaim a new sexual narrative that's actually at the core of our culture and we actually begin to create a culture of Eros; by a culture of Eros, I don't mean a culture of sexuality, the sexual model's the erotic; Eros is that experience of the intense and inherent first principle and first value of love that animates reality, not as a woo woo idea, but as the structure of cosmos. Until we reclaim a culture of Eros and a culture of personal identity, which is the human beings, the unique configuration of Eros, and all of that, that's all for different conversations, but until we do that, we're going to have tragedy beyond imagination in which people feel, and they're very body shamed. They're shamed by their own essential beingness and our sexuality is our beingness.If we can't be at home in our own bodies, if we manage to exile people from their deepest experience of their own fuck, in the most sacred sense of that word, then a person is in shame. And shame means I'm broken and that means I did something bad, I am bad. And the second we create a culture of shame, shame is insidious, it's multi-layered, it festers and it's the root of all evil. It's the covering of shame that all acting out and all existential risk, it all comes from that. If the Dharma, we call the Dharma, coserotic humanism, return to Eros needs to be anything... Fred Jealous said to me... Fred Jealous is a beautiful man who's one of the... His son, Ben, actually was on our board for a while so is Fred, who is head of the NAACP, and Fred does this incredible work with men. He's the hero of Monterey County, and Fred read "A Return to Eros" and he wrote me a note and he said, 'This is an affront to shame.' It was such a beautiful note, and Fred is in his 80s, and he's this deep, deep patriarch of the best of left wing ethos in America, this beautiful, beautiful, elder statesman, masculine, who is she? And he said, "Wow, this is an affront to shame." We want to be an affront to shame for people to be born into their unbearable beauty. And from there, ethos comes. From their healing, sexual abuse comes. From their healing, existential risk comes and all of it. Cha.

AUBREY: Cha.

MARC: Cha. 

AUBREY: The other part of this, just while I have you and because I can't resist, what about the dismissive permissibility of violence? Let's take sex out of it. This is a two-part thing. I'm comparing and contrasting two elements. Obviously, sexuality could be repressed, and all forms of that could be repressed and violence could be equally repressed in the same way but just taking the sexual aside, there's this kind of permission slip for violence, not actually done the physical, except in the cases of war, of course, and maybe that's where it comes from, but just culturally, why that parent is so cool with the with the horrifically violent film but not the salacious or just beautiful expression of the feminine or masculine?

MARC: There's two kinds of violence. And KK, you and I, we've talked about this so many times and you've helped me understand this. There's one kind of violence, which is physical and there's another which is verbal. The internet is filled with intense verbal abuse, which is violent. There's a deep violence to it. And violence, always is a form of pseudo-Eros. When I'm not in my Eros, meaning I'm not experiencing Eros. Eros is my experience of radical aliveness, desiring contact and desiring evermore wholeness. That's the movement of Eros. And Eros is the quality of being that I rest in, after we make love, and we're just holding each other, we're resting in she, we're resting in Eros. So when there's a collapse of Eros and Eros expresses itself invalid, experience with the intrinsic value of our reality. So when there's a collapse of Eros, which is a collapse of value, then we're in the emptiness, we can't bear the emptiness, so we cover the emptiness with pseudo Eros. Violence is one of the most intensely and easily available forms of pseudo Eros. When I do it verbally, since I'm not in the circle of Eros, I place someone else outside the circle, Rene Girard talks about scapegoating, I place someone else outside the circle to give myself the illusion of being inside the circle. When two people meet for dinner, and they don't really have anything to say to each other, they talk about a third person they don't know and in a somewhat disparaging way to give themselves the illusion that they're in the circle of Eros. That's verbal violence. And then there's a somatic thrill, there's an adrenaline movement, there's a dopamine movement to physical violence, which takes place when we don't actually feel the fullness of our Eros and the fullness of our soma. To witness the healing and embodied healing by Kristina is to witness the goddess at work, but she'll bring a person into their body, into the enfleshed aliveness of their physicality in which, violence, to compare to what she does, violence is trivial, uninteresting, boring in the extreme. When I'm in my armor, I haven't moved from what we call homo armor to homo amor. That means the new human and the new humanity. I'm not a unique incarnation of the Eros of Cosmos, and I can't feel that love enfleshed in my body. I desperately need to feel my body because my body is divinity. My pseudo Eros is violence. We need to actually, and it's one of Kristina's gorgeous works that was missing from the way I was teaching the Dharma, was we really needed desperately, this piece of enfleshed work so person can feel, as the sacred text, says, [foreign language 2:05:33] through my flesh, I see God. When I don't do that, I've got to find that in pseudo Eros, which becomes physical violence.

AUBREY: And you can see that in online bullying, which has become an absolute epidemic. 

MARC: Absolutely.

AUBREY: And what they're doing is people are finding interiority, they're finding the internality and tribal bonding that comes from scapegoating some poor person, and then that person being so far on the outside, and so far shunned and shamed and paralyzed in their ability to move--

MARC: They lose their lifeforce and commit suicide.

AUBREY: They do.

MARC: Pseudo Eros. 

AUBREY: That's the deep tragedy. And so what the solution points to is actually helping, helping, kids as they grow up, find their Eros. That does not mean sexual. That means Eros. It means disambiguating the two. Obviously, they're connected as the sexual models of the erotic, as you said. But finding the Eros of their own sense of self, their own body as their body is changing, as their relationship to nature and so, yes. We can try and tamp down and squash bullying. And, of course, those efforts are appreciated but the other effort, which this points to is how do we bring those people who would be allured into bullying by their desire for pseudo Eros into enough Eros where the allurement for bullying is just not there?

MARC: Absolutely. Gorgeous. For that, we need a new story of who am I? And who are we? And where do we live? I know, we're going to talk about that in other places. But the collapse of Eros, which is the collapse of value, is the creator of all shame. Shame is the root of all evil. You literally, and KK, we've spent so many nights tracing these roots together, you can literally, and I know this is not our topic now, so we'll... But you literally can trace directly every form of catastrophic and existential risk. You can trace it back to the collapse of collective and personal Eros. When Eros collapses, we're out of alignment with our essential nature. It's why we only feel at home in the world when we're in love. I look forward to going deeper on that with you, brother.

AUBREY: And to bring it full circle, that's why this teaching is so important. This is not just about, let's live a happier life where we make love a little bit better and the sunsets a little bit sweeter. All well and good. 

MARC: With all due respect for that. 

AUBREY: It's fucking great. And that's a big part of it. There's deeper and more powerful implications for the restoration of our entire world that are coming through this lineage, which is once again, why the stand for justice and the reason to have these conversations and to share these conversations becomes part of our collective Dharma.

MARC: The future is at stake. Existential risks means there'll be no future. So in other words, literally the trillions of children of men and women, men and men, women and women who are going to make love, the trillions of beauties that could happen, for the first time in human history, depends on our generation. The root cause underlying all of the generator functions of existential risk and I was talking to Daniel about this recently, the root cause is a failure of intimacy, intimacy with myself, intimacy with you, because we don't have a narrative of self, we don't have a narrative of Eros, we don't have a narrative of... This work that we're all doing together, it's not a pollyannish upper middle class, let's find new ways to enjoy ourselves. This is quite literally we're facing there being no future. Robert Lifton wrote a book called "Facing Apocalypse" and about the desire to turn away. We want to turn away. We can't turn towards it. And as you know Aubrey and KK, you're one of the leaders of the think tank, the entire think tank is committed to responding to existential risk to telling this new story of value, which is the new story of Eros. That's what we spend all of our days and nights on. And that's why this matters so much.

AUBREY: Kristina, a final word from you, as we close this.

KRISTINA: A final word.

AUBREY: Whatever comes through your heart, don't worry about if it meets any topical threads, just bring us home. Let's let the goddess bring us home, the enfleshed goddess.

KRISTINA: Cha. The liner, my favorite lineage masters, his vision was that one day, every man, woman and child would have the opportunity to be lived as love. That's what this transmission gives. It gives you the opportunity to actually have an embodied knowing of what it feels like to be lived as love. And from there, all is healed. Sounds radically simple, but it's just true. All can heal from that place. Amen. Thank you, Aubrey. Thank you for everything. Thank you, beloved Marc.

MARC: Thank you beloved KK

AUBREY: Thank you, brother. And thank you, sister. And thanks, everybody for listening, and tuning in, we love you. Thanks for tuning into this very special podcast everyone. And I just wanted to speak plainly and from the heart about why I chose to podcast with Marc Gafni again, and why I'm choosing to continue to podcast and work with him. The first of these reasons, the first of three is a simple claim of justice, that ultimately no person should be punished indefinitely without the opportunity to confront his accusers, to present his evidence or her evidence, and actually have some sort of adjudication.Now, Marc Gafni has been punished since 2006. He has not been able to deliver his message. He's been effectively canceled from culture. For someone who has a great gift to give, like Marc Gafni, you have to understand the gravitas of what has happened without the fairness of what we would call justice. So it is purely injust to continue to suppress his message, which I truly believe is a message, and this is the second reason, his message is important for the world. It's not only important for all people, it's particularly important for the repressed feminine.This is something that's so close to my heart, I love my wife so much, I love my mom so much. I love the feminine so much and my life doesn't even make sense if I'm not serving the feminine in some way or another. In doing this podcast, I understand that I'm going to take arrows, and I'm going to get accusations and I'm going to be attacked, and it's going to land in some ways, and I'm going to feel it. But I know, I truly know, that the message that we're putting out, is going to help so many people, including the divine feminine, which is a deep, deep and important and perhaps the most important passion of my work to come.You'll see in subsequent podcasts how important his message is for handling existential risk and just supporting and helping to fix some of the broken structures of our culture. We're really working hard together to try and put out the best information regarding that. Number three, of course, is I trust him. He lived at my house with Vylana and I. We've stepped into a deep medicine ceremony, where in those types of ceremonies, any type of shadow and distortion, it all comes to the surface and it's a crucible. We've been through that together and I trust both Marc and I trust Kristina, we've all been in this together. I've also looked at the reports of many incredibly intelligent people who've come up, reviewed all of the evidence and taken a stand to support Marc Gafni. In the combination of all of that, it's led to a sense of trust. Now, of course, there are things that he has admitted to that he regrets and I think many of us have those regrets in our lives. Ultimately, this is not about me claiming what is right or what is wrong, or what happened, or what didn't. It's simply those three points that I mentioned: one, it's a sense of justice, actually being honored and respected and a deep bow to actually Lady Justice and how that system has developed with all of its flaws, there are some important aspects of it; two the importance of this work to the world and the divine feminine. Of course, two of the people standing with him, many of the people standing with him, if you actually look into it, are some of the leaders in feminine empowerment thought, some of the elders, so this is truly important work for the world. It is not trivial. And number three, my personal feeling for whatever it's worth, of trust, from working with him, studying with them, living with him, and being in ceremony with them. So for all of those reasons, I'm going to continue podcasting, and continue working with Marc Gafni and Kristina to help get these incredibly important messages out to the world. So I understand and I have the deepest sympathy for anyone who's experienced some of the horror of any type of abuse, whether you're a man or whether you're a woman. I'm constantly shocked and appalled and heartbroken by so many people who've had to suffer all kinds of different challenges in our world. Hopefully, some of these ideas and thoughts start to heal the world and prevent these things from happening in the future as people start to understand their trauma patterns, their shame, and the repressions that can create some of these violations. But my deepest sympathy to anyone who's affected, anyone who's been triggered by this podcast or any experience in their life, I send you nothing but the utmost love and honor. So thank you, everybody, for listening to this and trying to understand from my perspective as to why this is important. I love you all very much and I will see you next week.