What would happen if you created your bucket list, and actually went for it. Full out. No excuses. Ben Nemtin put this to the test and you won’t believe what he was able to accomplish. This is an absolutely inspiring and motivational podcast, which isn’t that surprising being that Ben Nemtin is one of the top motivational speakers in the world. An amazing storyteller, you’ll be continually surprised by the seemingly impossible things that can actually happen when you fully commit. For example, one of Ben’s bucket list items was playing basketball with president Obama….and it happened. And if those things you wish to accomplish don’t actually come to fruition, at least you’ll know it wasn’t from lack of effort.“Do not wait to strike till the iron is hot; but make it hot by striking” - William Butler Yeats

Connect with Ben Nemtin

Website |https://www.bennemtin.com/

YouTube |https://bit.ly/3RAmghS

Instagram |https://www.instagram.com/bennemtin/?hl=en

Twitter |https://twitter.com/BenNemtin

AUBREY: Ben, how are you, brother? 

BEN: I'm great, man. I'm happy to be here. I'm also happy that I didn't make a mess in your bathroom because you have one of those electronic Japanese toilets. 

AUBREY: It senses your ass. It will not shoot water straight up into the air. If there's no asshole present, you're fine. 

BEN: It also doesn't like you peeing standing up. Because I was peeing and then all of a sudden, the top just started closing. And I was like, this is going to be great. Aubrey's going to come back and I peed over the entire bathroom. 

AUBREY: It senses for cock, actually.

BEN: Okay. Thank you. Let’s dive into that.

AUBREY: Just kidding, everybody. So, reading this "Bucket List Journal," talking to you, being familiar with it. First thing, Canadian National Rugby team. I didn't know that part of the story. How was the track? You were fucking playing rugby in Canada. 

BEN: Yeah, I was playing rugby. It's pretty big on the west coast. It's kind of like football in the south on the west coast of Canada. That's where the national team trains. My high school coach was an ex national coach. It was the thing to do. 

AUBREY: Can Canada compete at all because I was in University of Queensland for the Rugby World Cup when actually the Rugby World Cup was in Australia. This was 2003, 2004. And the Aussies were actually training in the UQ weight room, fucking monsters. Monsters. I think they lost to the All Blacks that year, who are also monsters. 

BEN: Bigger monsters. 

AUBREY: Bigger monsters, particularly savage variety. But I don't didn't remember Canada. 

BEN: No, we don't quite compete with the big boys. We're not going up against Australia, South Africa, All Blacks. 

AUBREY: Springboks are pretty legit. And then England. 

BEN: England as well. And sometimes, I think maybe we beat Wales once. We're actually better at Sevens. We're better at Sevens. 

AUBREY: It's a country the size of Massachusetts. 

BEN: Exactly. Yeah. So, you'd think. I played on the under 19 national team for a minute. I wasn't on the full men's national team but this was the big goal in high school, was make the provincial team, which is like the state team, make the national team. 

AUBREY: Put the maple leaf on your jersey and go to war. 

BEN: Yeah, if you're not playing hockey, and you're not playing hockey, you're playing rugby. This is my dream. Made the team. I also had an academic scholarship to university in my hometown. So, all my buddies were going to the UVic, where I grew up. I was fired out. We were training for the World Cup, U19 World Cup, which is in Paris, France. I played fly half. So, that's like, quarterback, field goal kicker. You're calling plays, you're in high pressure situations. And I always put pressure on myself. 

AUBREY: You don't say. 

BEN: Yeah, right. And I think I've sort of figured out why. But for the purpose of this story, I'm in my university, first year. In my high school game, sorry, in the championship game, we're in the provincial finals. And I have an opportunity to win the game with a kick. And just before—

AUBREY: Like a set kick, or just rolling drop kick set kick? 

BEN: Set kick for three points. We're down by maybe one or two. So, this either ties us or puts us ahead. And as I'm setting up for the kick, I'm about to kick, someone on the sideline yells—

AUBREY: Einhorn and Finkle. 

BEN: Close. No. Someone yells, don't choke or joke, or something like that. I heard it. And it just was enough to kind of shake me where I second guess myself for a millisecond. And I missed the kick. And this for me was devastating. We lost the game. And this was like everything. And I was like, it's over. I'm never going to play again. Everything about it is just so catastrophic. Cut to, I made the national team. Amazing. But I'm going on the field every day, practicing my kicks. And in the dead of night, these thoughts creep in, and I'm like, I better not blow it at the World Cup. What if I totally blow this again? I can't do it. Can't do it. Can't blow it. But of course, I'm good. I go to the field, I'm fine. And then at night, these thoughts creep in, and I start to lose sleep. I have trouble sleeping. I get anxiety. I'm losing sleep. This pressure builds and builds. And slowly, I start to slide into a depression. And I've never ever experienced anything like this. I'm A type. Lots of friends, love being around people, love being social. And slowly, this depression gets to the point where I'm driving to school, I get to school, I park in the parking lot and my anxiety is stopping me from going out of the car to class. So, I sit in the car and I go back home. And then I can't go to rugby practice. I get my gear, I go into the hallway and I'm just in this place of indecision. And I end up not going. So, I got dropped from the team. And now, everything is just compounding and it's spiraling down. And I get to the point where I have trouble leaving the house to go out and be with people. I become a shut-in. And my parents are trying everything, obviously, to help. Nothing really does. 

AUBREY: I'm curious how it went from performance on the field to a generalized anxiety and depressive state. Because I can kind of understand it. But I don't particularly understand the dynamic. Because I certainly understand the performance anxiety aspect. I've been playing a fucking rec league in the last two years in basketball here. Doesn't matter. My wife shows up and watches me. And I said, girlfriend, because it's usually who showed up back in the day when I was playing ball when it actually kind of mattered for my school. But still, if I play a bad game, I'm so hard on myself that I get anxious for these games. The risk reward for that.  So, I'll find myself, doesn't matter if I have a big podcast that day, I'll still be anxious, not about the podcast, or whatever important thing I'm doing, I'll be anxious about a fucking rec league game. And then I had to like work through it. It was beautiful. Because I have a consciousness now that can actually work through it and understand it. But I guess what I'm really curious about and we'll get into a lot of the solutions that are deeply involved in this movement that you've created. But if you've been able to track how it went from specific to the field, to generalized in your life in such a dramatic way. 

BEN: I think two things. One was the sleep. When I started losing sleep, that just kind of messed me up across the board. So, my nervous system was shot. I felt just unhinged. And if you don't sleep for long enough, you're just messed up. So, that started to make me feel worse and worse. Other things, I think, you and I are probably different. Like for me, I have, I think a propensity to feel those types of feelings that can be triggered by different things that now I've realized are, one of the reasons I believe is I thought this was my dream, but it wasn't the thing I really wanted to do. So, a big part of my life, I was gunning towards this goal, to look good or to make other people happy. Because I thought this was the dream. This was the high school dream, but it wasn't my dream. And now I realize I start to get really down when I'm not being authentic to who I am. Whether it's in a relationship or whether it's in a professional pursuit, or it's a big part of my life. 

AUBREY: It's like you're not on the timeline of your true story. 

BEN: Which ironically, "The Buried Life" poem, which inspired this whole journey, the one line that I love so much is, it's all about tracking your true original course. 

AUBREY: That's the Matthew Arnold poem. I transcribed that when I read that in this and it's so potent. I wonder, do you have it memorized? 

BEN: Yeah. So, the four lines that—

AUBREY: It's at the end. The four lines at the end are the powerful ones. 

BEN: And so, this is a poem that just randomly my buddy got assigned to in English class. He read it because it was homework. But it was the same time that we were talking about making a film. We had no idea what the film was going to be about, but we were like, why haven't we done any of the things we've ever wanted to do? We've never even tried. We've always had these dreams, we have all these goals and we just talk about them. We haven't even taken one step. So, we were talking about maybe there's a film about this. And he gets assigned this poem. And the four lines are, that he sent to us, but often in the world's most crowded streets, but often in the den of strife, there rises an unspeakable desire after the knowledge of our buried life. And he said, guys, this poet, 150 years ago, he's talking about the exact same thing we're talking about right now. Which is that, we have all these things that we want to do, but we haven't done them because they're buried. We have these moments when we're inspired. The day-to-day buries them. And we were like, holy shit, we're not the first people to feel like this, then if this guy wrote this poem in 1852. 

AUBREY: Let me finish the poem because I think the whole thing is incredibly profound. “A thirst to spend our fire and restless force in tracking out our true original course. A longing to inquire into the mystery of this heart which beats so wild so deep in us. To know whence our lives come and where they go.” Fuck yeah. That's it. Now, I'm starting to understand that basically, you were in a time in between stories where you recognized that the story and the timeline you were on was not your true story, from whence you came in where you were going. There was a different story. But the time in between stories is difficult, because it's like the goo. It's like being in the chrysalis where you don't really know where you're going. You don't have any forward thrust of energy going anywhere. So, you're just cooking in your own unknowingness. And until you learn the art of pure surrender, which none of us know when we're a young man, in particular, young anybody in particular, I get it now. 

BEN: Yeah. And this was the first time this had ever happened. So, I was shook. Because now all of a sudden, this is my first mental health crisis. I don't know why I'm feeling like this. I'm not talking about it. Because I don't want everyone to know that I'm broken. I have no idea that other people might be experiencing this. All I know is that six months ago, I was on the national rugby team, I had an academic scholarship, and now I have trouble leaving the house. And my parents would be like, just go for a 15 minute walk every day. Just get out the house, get some fresh air. And they would kind of force me out of the house. And sometimes, I would just go hide in the driveway for 15 minutes, because I was so anxious about running into somebody. Someone being like, yo, where've you been? And so, I would hide and I'd come back and I'd tell my parents I went for a walk. And so one of the most important things that happened was after that semester that I dropped out, my buddies came to the house and literally pulled me out of the house. Like, dude, we're going to work in a new town for the summer and you're coming with us. And I was like, no, I'm dragging my feet. They pulled me out of the house and they brought me to this new town. And then something started happening. I was forced to get a job. And I started to be like, I can actually do things for myself. I started to get some confidence because I had a job. I started talking about these feelings that I was having to my friends. And they were like, we've gone through some of this stuff. And I was like, what? So, I was learning that I wasn't totally crazy. I wasn't alone, basically. That helped. But the biggest thing was, I started to meet new types of people. And I started meeting these kids that I realized gave me energy, they energized me. And I started to understand that there's some people that give me energy and some people drain me. And these were kids that had started their own businesses, they had already traveled around the world, they started a clothing line out of nowhere. And I was like, I'm starting to feel back to myself. I'm driving back home after that summer. By the way, coming out of depression and any mental challenge is very complex. So, it's not as simple as me starting, just do these three things. I finally got a therapist, that was huge. There are many things that contributed. So, we can talk about that later. But just in terms of this one decision that changed my life forever, I was like, I'm going to try and only surround myself with people that inspire me, just like these new kids. And that would completely change my path. And I think that was like the catalyst that turned me from the mud out of the mud. Because I got back home and for the first time in my life, I was intentional about who I wanted to hang out with. And you're in high school, you have this small petri dish of friends. And you don't know there's this whole world out there. And eventually, you'll find your crew, you'll find your tribe. And so at this point, I was like, who's inspiring? And there was one dude that came to mind. And he had made videos in the neighborhood for years. And he'd always show the videos at the end of summer. So, he'd make a summer video with all the friends and then screen it. And he made some videos at McGill University at Frosh Week, which is like the Olympics of drinking. And he'd made these, they were kind of like jackass meets inspirational party videos. So, you'd watch these videos of him and his friends and you'd be like, I want to go out and have a good time. And so I saw this video of his early Facebook, 2006. And I was like, that's who I want to hang out with. I didn't really know him too well. So, I called him up. He actually took my sister to prom. I was conflicted. I was like, I'm going to go and call. Call him, no answer. Call him again, no answer. Third time he picks up I'm like, hey, man. It's Ben. I know we haven't really hung out that much, but I know you make movies. I've been thinking I want to make a movie. He's like, that's funny. I was just talking to my buddy Dave about something like this. I was like, perfect. You call Dave, I'll call your older brother Duncan. And let’s the four of us talk about making a film. These are all guys that grew up in Victoria. Two of them at a private school, one of them at my public school. So, we're chatting about this film, we don't know what it's going to be about. And that's when Johnny gets assigned the poem. And so we're like, perfect. This poet felt like this 150 years ago, let's call our film "The Buried Life." And let's make a list of all of our buried dreams and let's go after them. And every time we cross something off our list, let's help someone else do something on their list. Because we're going to need help. Because there's no way we're going to do all these list items. And so, the way that we figured out what our list was, it wasn't like, let's write a bucket list. It all came from thinking about death. So, we came up with this question, what do you want to do before you die? And the answer to that question, that's where our list came from. And we're like, let's ask other people what you want to do before you die? And we'll help them if we can. And we'll do a two-week road trip in 2006. And we'll just scrape this together. We'll borrow an RV, we'll make a janky website, we'll buy a secondhand camera, we'll pretend we have a production company, try and get sponsors, throw parties as fundraisers for gas. And the whole community rallied to kind of help us get this going. In summer 2006, we got this RV and we're going to take a two-week road trip. And that's all it was supposed to be, was just a two week road trip, make a short film, show our buddies. 

AUBREY: And you had your list of 100. At that point, was it a combined list where you guys pooled your list together? So, it was like, we're going to do this or did you each have your own individuals? 

BEN: Most of them were we're going to do them together. Some of them, if one person was like, I really want to do this, like Dave wanted to ride a bull. I had a herniated disk, I was like, no way I'm riding a bull. 

AUBREY: Right. Right. Right. So, he crossed it off for the list collectively. 

BEN: Exactly. Most of them were combined. But the thing that we did, there were two rules. First rule, you had to pretend you were a millionaire, like you had 10 million bucks in your bank when you wrote the list. So, money was no object. And you had to pretend that anything was possible. So, we came up with the funniest ideas. We were laughing. There's no way we're ever going to do this stuff. Play basketball with Obama, sit with Oprah, go to space, make a TV show, pay off our parents' mortgage, grow a mustache, be a knight for a day, get something named after you. All these things that we just thought would be really fun. We had no idea. I remember we got the RV checked by a mechanic before we left because we're like, we don't have the money to get this fixed or towed if it comes back. So, let's ask a mechanic if this will make it back. And we took it to the mechanics. Guys, don't expect this to make it back. It's not going to make it back. I remember sitting on the curb the night before we're supposed to go. We pulled this RV out of Johnny Duncan's uncle's swamp to get it out. And we had made like, we call them decals in Canada, you call them decals. It said one film, four guys, 100 things to do before you die on the side of the bus, we're ready to go. And we're saying, this is a bad idea. What are we doing? We didn't tell anybody what we're doing because we didn't know how to explain it. And this mechanic was like, it's not going to make it back and we didn't have the money to tow it. And I remember Dave saying, guys, we've come this far. Let's do it. Thank God because we almost pulled the chute. 

AUBREY: That's this kind of refusal of the call in the classic hero's journey arc. There's always this moment, right before you're about to embark and cross the threshold, where it's like, fuck, maybe not. And we have to grapple with that. And it's just it's such an interesting part of the arc. It always shows up. 

BEN: Yeah, it's interesting. The other thing that's cool is that if it was me on my own, I wouldn't have done it. I needed the accountability of the three other guys. I needed those guys to be like, no, we're doing this. And that happened so many times. 

AUBREY: So, in the classic hero's journey arc, that actually comes, meet your allies, comes after this crossing the threshold moment. But I think often in real life, it happens before. We do need support. 

BEN: In the beginning. 

AUBREY: In the beginning. From the drop. Even maybe to get the call. Because you needed your buddy to have this poem to even get the call to adventure that took you from ordinary life stage one into the call to adventure. And then of course, refusal of the call. Actually, I think stage four is meeting the mentor. So, I guess the poem was kind of like the mentor in that way. And then it's cross the threshold, and then it meets the allies. But it can be in different orders. But it's very much, this is the hero's journey that we're talking about here. 

BEN: Yeah. And so many times throughout the next 10 years, because this two week road trip ends up lasting 10, 12 years. And through those years, there's many, many downs. And each time, I would have given up if I was by myself, but one of the other guys was like, no, we're doing it. Or I told the other guy, no, we're doing it. We got to believe, we got to keep doing this. And that all came from that decision to surround myself with people that made me feel more like me, like my true self. And the other thing that was crazy, was the reason why writing the list was so liberating. Because it was so exciting to actually say what I wanted. This was the first time in my life I actually expressed what I wanted. And a lot of it came out of this sort of creative expression that I wanted to do. Like I wanted to make a TV show with my friends, I wanted to make a movie, I wanted to go have fun. And I was not going down that path. I was in kinesiology, I was going to be a physiotherapist or chiropractor. Work for a professional sports team. By writing it down, for the first time in my life, I was like, this is exciting. I don't even care if we end up doing these things. The fact that we're going to go and try is really fun. 

AUBREY: It's almost like you uncovered the meta want, which was the want to claim your want. All of these wants, of course, ride a bull, play ball with Obama, which I want to talk to you about. It's crazy that you actually crossed that off the list. And I want to go through some of these stories and I'm sure they're epic. But ultimately, the list is just a way for you to actually claim a life where you're going after what you want, which is actually really what you want. More than each individual thing. Yeah, you want the individual things and that's what gets you going. But really, it's like, I claim that I want things and I want to live a spectacular life. And that's what I fucking want. And that's the most important thing. The first piece of writing that I ever produced ended up, I thought it was going to be a book, ended up being a course called "Go For Your Win." And it was exactly that idea. Don't go for some middling, mediocre path. Go for what you really want, your win. What's your win? What's your original course? 

BEN: Exactly. And then, of course, the next step, which is what I would have gotten hung up on if I wasn't around those guys, and most people get stopped at, is the action and talking about it. Because then you're like, what if people know that this is what I want? What are they going to think? What if they know that this is what I'm doing and then I fail? I was reading "The Four Agreements" last night and he talks about like everyone has the right to express and take action towards his or her dream. And as I look back, these are all really huge lessons for me. But at the time, we didn't know what we were doing. We were just like, now we've got this list. Let's go after it. And let's talk with as many people as we can about it. We would drive up to radio stations. We'd park this janky RV in the parking lot of the radio station and we wouldn't leave until they put us on the air. We go on the air and we talk about our list and we say, if you have a dream, send it to us. And just not caring about what other people are going to think about this and expressing this and sharing with them. All of a sudden, people started to hear about it. And then we started getting emails. People be like, I saw your bucket list online because we posted our 100 things. I saw you want to ride a bull. My buddy has a bull ranch, we'll get you on a bull. And be like, I saw you want to make a toast at a stranger's wedding. 

AUBREY: How'd the bull go? How many seconds? 

BEN: So, again—

AUBREY: That wasn't you. 

BEN: I didn't do it. This is so funny. Dave's biggest dream. He's calling all these outfits, trying to get on a bull. Everyone's like, they got sign releases for the doc. Too much liability, we're not going to let you. He's like, have you ridden a bike. Have you ridden a horse? He's like, no, but I've ridden a bike. Anyways, we got to one place in Boise. They're going to let us do it. Dave saddles up. He's ready to go. And he does well. He does like 4, 5 seconds. 

AUBREY: Not bad! 

BEN: Yeah. And then Duncan, our other friend, he's like, I'm going to do it. We're like, go for it. He gets on. And he's like 8 seconds. 

AUBREY: He made it. 

BEN: He made it. And Dave's like, oh, no, get me a bigger bull. So, they bring out this massive, massive bull. They're like, are you sure? And Dave's like oh, yeah. I'm not letting Duncan do 8 seconds. Brings out this big bull. He just got thrashed, 1, 2 seconds. Got thrown. Lucky, he didn't get totally, he did almost tear his hamstring. So, he crossed it off. The thing that was interesting is the doc actually originally was, let's ask people what they want to do before they die. Let's help them do that. That'll be what the doc's about. And we'll learn from people why or why they haven't done the thing they want to do. And we'll do our list on the side. But who cares about our list? That's selfish to be able to just like, let's do a documentary about our bucket list. Let's help these people, but let's do our stuff as well, because it'll be fun. We didn't think people were going to care about our list. But what we found is that as we started to travel, people wanted us to cross all 100 things off our list. And then we started seeing people being like, hey, I started my list. And then we saw a couple people, a hundred thousand. And over time, all these people, going after their bucket list because we were going after ours. And then you sort of realize, wow, when you do what you love, you inspire other people to do what they love. 

AUBREY: And give them permission. 

BEN: Exactly. And that creates a ripple effect that's really powerful. It's a great win-win because you get to do the shit you want to do. But then you also give people permission to do theirs. And just by being true to yourself. Which is like, how many people have told you, you've inspired me to do this? You've inspired me to think about that. You could have easily just not started the podcast, because there's a million reasons not to start one. But you're following this true passion and it creates a ripple effect. So, we're like, great. We can continue to go after our list, we can inspire other people, and then we can also help other people. So, this two week road trip, at the end of it, it's national news, we're getting all these emails, the RV didn't break down, we're stoked. And we get back and we're like, let's do this again next summer, but let's go bigger. Let's go after bigger list items. Let's get a crew to follow us to film it. And let's help more people. And that started this journey that we went on that basically brought me here. 

AUBREY: One of the things that occurred to me recently is I am a strong believer in reincarnation. I just believe it. I've been on the psychedelic medicine path since I was 18. I've experienced a lot of things that have shown me, not necessarily my own past lives, but just the unborn, undying nature of what you could call your soul or consciousness. And it just makes perfect sense to me that we would incarnate many different times, learn many different lessons. And obviously, this is not my own thinking. Lots of different massive schools of thought and philosophy and spirituality also believe in reincarnation. Which also implies that there's an infinite nature to something that would be like the soul. Now, of course, there's other religions that say you do this once and then you're either heaven or hell. I'm not talking about those. Certainly not my belief system. All respect to everybody's belief system, not mine. And I think a lot of people are probably similar. They probably believe that we're going to reincarnate. Meaning that in an infinite universe with an infinite amount of time, which we all pretty much agree on, there's an infinite amount of potential lives on even potential different planets. But basically, we're talking about many, many, many opportunities to incarnate. Most likely. If you believe that. And I was thinking about it, and it's like, you can hold that belief and simultaneously still be like, but this life though, I'm just going to play it real safe. I'm just going to watch out and play it safe. But then just imagine looking back at all of the infinite lives that you've gotten to live, so many and being like, fuck, that one right there, I didn't go for it. I played it safe. No. You don't want that. Using your own death is one good marker and that's a great way. Memento Mori, remember that you will die. Beautiful piece of advice. Remember at your death, what you're going to look back on. Bronnie Ware talks about it, deathbed regrets. It's a very important endpoint to look back on this one life. But then I was thinking, fuck, imagine even being a soul and being like, you had this whole life, and you just played it safe, and just compromised, and didn't go for it? Come on, bro. Really? Get back in there. 

BEN: You should be ashamed of yourself. 

AUBREY: Get back in there and fucking go for it. 

BEN: It's like the coach on the sidelines, slapping. You can do better. 

AUBREY: Come on. Shake it off, get back in there. 

BEN: Slap him on the butt, get back in there. 

AUBREY: It was interesting to even shift the perspective even one level further. But both are really valuable tools to take a look at your life right now and be like, come on, what are we doing? Let's go for it. Because in the going for it, you can't lose. And I think that's one of the points you make. In the going for it is the win. The going for it is the win. 

BEN: Action is the win. Gunning it is the win. For sure. Because at the very least, you learn something about yourself. 

AUBREY: Totally. 

BEN: Usually, even full out failure is a pivot in a direction that you need to go. And even if you stop and you can't go anywhere, you take everything that you've learned from that process and then you apply it to your next thing. And that discomfort that you feel or the shame or whatever, all of that is just growth so that you're evolving to the person that you eventually will need to be to actually do the real thing that you want to do. 

AUBREY: I know this so well because the company that I founded, Onnit, started as a failure. And the failure was I was creating hangover supplements. Nobody wanted them. They were way too expensive as hangover supplements, basically. And there was one to prepare you while you were out partying, and the other one was to help you recover. They were like $30 a bottle and like, fuck that, I'll just fucking sleep more. Nobody cared at that point. But the fact that I was making supplements and understood the manufacturing process, understood the bottling, and the agreements, and rules, and all of that, when it came the opportunity to create what became our flagship Alpha Brain, the nootropic, I had the skill set available to actually execute and have the resources to execute. So, my failure was one pivot away from the greatest, at least, outward success that I've had in the founding of Onnit and the creation of, really, my dream company. And it started with a failure. Recently, I had a buddy who's about to start his own business, and he's a young guy. And I'm looking at what his idea is and I'm looking at what his plans are. And it's like, that's real tough, man. That's really tough. And some part of me wants to be like, man, I've been around a lot of businesses, I don't think that's going to work. But some part of me is like, don't you dare say that because this may be exactly the path that's necessary. That even if this thing fails, he's one pivot away from something that's wildly successful. And if he stops and doesn't go for this thing, it may derail his life course in a significant way. The idea is here's some things to think about. This is tough on this. This is where MOQ, you're going to run into some problems. But fucking go for it, man. Send it. Even though some parts of me are like, I don't think that shit's going to work. But that's not the role of a good mentor. The good mentor's like, no, fucking go for it, send it. 

BEN: And that also may not be the ultimate goal for him is to build a successful company. As you said, the goal might be to do it and learn and get ready for the next one. And the thing is that, that fear that, am I going to fail? That's typically what stops most people from doing the thing. It's the fear of failure, or it's the fear of what other people think. And the whole thing, it's funny about the fear of what other people think, is the older you get, you're like, I don't think people are actually thinking about me that much. You think they're thinking about you but do they really care? And are those people that you end up really caring about if they care? The people that you love, they're not going to look down on you, they're going to support you. And you want to be around those people. And so even if there are people that look down on you for failing, that's a great indicator to just shift those people out of your life. There's a great saying, in my 20s, I was worried about what other people thought. In my 40s, I didn't care what other people thought. In my 60s, I realized they were never thinking about me in the first place. 

AUBREY: It's interesting. My mom was a professional tennis player. Made it all the way to the semifinals of Wimbledon. 

BEN: Oh my god. I got into tennis over the pandemic. I'm obsessed. 

AUBREY: Yeah. Pickleball has been my jam lately. I don't know if you've ever played that. 

BEN: That was my gateway drug to tennis. 

AUBREY: That's what she would always tell me because I would, again, I would get so nervous before games. And she was like, son, let me tell you a secret. Everybody who you think really cares, they don't actually really give a shit. They don't give a shit. You think that they're all over there and they're like, even if you have a spectacular failure, you're giving them the delight of being able to talk about, did you see Marcus with those seven air balls in a row? What a catastrophic collapse. They enjoyed it. They don't really, really care. And that's the thing, the wisdom that you're sharing like the elders is like, “hey, nobody cares.”

BEN: And I think too. Look, I'm still a young guy. I definitely don't think that I'm wise by any means. But what I do try and do is, I don't necessarily think I'm an elder, but I try and consult my elder self. So, I think about myself at 90 years old. And I'll try and talk with that older person as much as possible when it comes to decision making. So, I'm like, 90 year old Ben, are you going to regret not doing this? Are you even going to remember this? Like, if I'm stressed out about something, sometimes I'm like, I don't think I'm even going to remember this in five years, two years, let alone when I'm 90. 

AUBREY: Shit, fucking 5 days sometimes. So, some of the things were so locked in, this is it, the existential crisis of my life. And then a week later, we're like, oh yeah, I was so fucked up about that. Unreal. 

BEN: Yeah, yeah. You don't even remember, and definitely other people don't remember. And so, you use your older self as that litmus test to be like, is this really important? And then you're like, fear of failure, sorry, fear of what other people think, you're always going to have it. People probably aren't thinking about you as much as you think they are. 

AUBREY: They're not thinking about you as much as you're thinking about you. That's for damn sure. Because they're thinking about themselves. And it's no sleight to them. Our story is our most important story to us. It just is. It just is. 

BEN: And also, they're also probably more supportive than you think. Because the only way that we cross things off our list is through the help of other people. We had no business doing anything, everyone helped us. And we were like, we're going to keep doing this. 

AUBREY: And keep paying it forward. 

BEN: Keep paying it forward. So, that's that cycle. And so, we're like, summer of 2007, we're going big. We bought this old long haul transit bus, 1969 Purple transit bus. We found it on Craigslist. No one had bought it because it was owned by a nudist, I think. There was a bumper sticker on the back that said happiness is no tan lines. Full on purple. This dude loved purple. The inside was purple. There was this big double bed in the back, there were mirrors on the roof. Everything purple. And we bought it and there was this purple leopard print Speedo that he had left in the shower by accident. So, one of my friends ended up throwing in the garbage, he pulled out the garbage, and gets it on. 

AUBREY: Did he wash it? 

BEN: Who knows? And so, we put all the list items on the side of the bus. And now we're going down the US. We're doing two months. We had fundraised a lot of money from sponsors. This is back in 2007. So, we weren't selling anything related to social media. This was like, we're going to talk about you in the news, we're going to put your logo on the bus, we're going to make T-shirts, we’re going to give them away. And Levi's came on board. They sponsored us. It was great. Palm Pilot, remember Palm Pilot with the stylus like a cellphone? It's a Blackberry but yeah, we may put them out of business. 

AUBREY: They were doomed, don't worry about it. 

BEN: Anyway, we put all this money into a crew to come with us from LA. We got a director, we got two cameramen, an audio guy and they followed us in an RV. And first thing we're doing, we're going to Burning Man 2007. 

AUBREY: Early. I'm about to go to Burning Man in like five days. 

BEN: I will see you there. 

AUBREY: All right, let's go. Let's go. 

BEN: We had to take air brakes course for this bus. Me and one other friend, Duncan, did an air brakes course. And then our other friend Dave who rode the bull, he drove the whole two days. Straight down Black Rock City. We get down to Black Rock. We had met our director. The first thing we're crossing off is go to Burning Man. Meet us at Burning Man. No idea there's no cell phone reception. At that time, no cell phone reception. 

AUBREY: Still hardly. 

BEN: Still hardly, but you can only write messages on the board in the middle. So, we get them and we're like, oh my God, how are we going to find this guy? We feel so bad. We've got this director that's meeting us. Takes him two days to find us. Finally, we find him and we're like, great. This has totally opened our mind to so many things. It was an incredible experience. Then we start to go after bigger list items for two months. And it's funny. One of the things that we went to right after Burning Man, we went straight to Vegas because we wanted to walk the red carpet. 

AUBREY: Now, that is actually the craziest thing. There's a lot of crazy things in this. But the fact that you went to Vegas after Burning Man might be the craziest thing that I've heard you say. Because that's the last fucking place on earth I would want to go after Burning an. 

BEN: Oh yeah. We realized that very quickly. First time at Burning Man, first time in Vegas. You learn a lot. And not only that, we have no money so we are living in, we're not staying in a hotel. We're staying in our bus in the trailer park at Circa Circus. And we're showering with the hose. And we're like, we're going to try and walk the red carpet at the VM—

AUBREY: Showering with the hose or showering with the hoes? Story gets very, very different. 

BEN: Yes. Definitely not the latter. 

AUBREY: So, water out of a tube. 

BEN: Water out of a tube. Yeah, that was about it. This is actually a funny story, because this is how we ended up getting the television show. And at this point, we had no idea. This was so pre-MTV. It was just, again, that pipe dream. We were like, it'd be so fun to make a show with our friends. But we're now just like, let's get on the red carpet. It's the MTV VMAs. We end up going to a thrift store, we get matching suits, these women's suits. They were these power women's suits that were different colors. We're like, we're going to dress like celebrities—

AUBREY: Like Harry and Lloyd? I mean, what are we talking about here? 

BEN: Basically, yeah. But much tighter. I couldn't do up the pants. And they were pinstripe, purple, blue, red, and neon green. And so, here's the plan. Let's pretend we're filming a secret pilot for MTV. We'll go to the VIP entrance. And we'll forge an email from Judy McGrath, the CEO of MTV, send it to ourselves and say, boys, can't wait to see it. Your tickets are inside. Remember, no one knows that you're filming this, Judy McGrath. And we're just going to try and bum rush the back door where all the celebs are going in. And we're going to see if we can get in. And so, we get in these suits. We cleaned the bus with the hose. We have our film crew, we clean ourselves with the hose. And again, water coming out of a tube. 

AUBREY: I could handle one of them. I just couldn't handle the second one. 

BEN: And we follow all the limos and we realize people are giving a red card which is your entrance to, your ticket to the VIP entrance to the awards. I'm like the plan is, go to the entrance, just have a storm of activity and act like you're supposed to be there. And hopefully, they'll let you in. We got cameras, hopefully, they let us in. We go up. We say we're late for the red carpet, we start yelling in the back. We say this is our publicist who is our director and we just kind of make this shitstorm of activity. And we show the email and they're just kind of confused. You guys aren't on the list. And they're like, just go over this way, I guess. And they kind of point us that way. And we just keep taking the bus into the throngs of people. And we start honking the horn into the people and then there's the red carpet. And we just send one camera out, next camera out, and then we follow and they just start opening the red ropes for us. And so we get red rope open, red rope open, all the way to the red carpet. And then all of a sudden, we're filming on the red carpet and one of the guys got into the awards. We got into the press area, and we're filming and they had no idea that we had been there. So, we film it. We get out. Cut to we are deciding that we want to make a pilot to try and sell a show. And we're like how funny would it be if we made our pilot about pretending to make a pilot for MTV. So, that's what we do. So, we cut this together. We have this story and then we have a story of helping someone else. Over a long period of time, I started to do trips to LA, understand the entertainment business. We need to get a production company, we partner. Anyways, long story longer. This pilot is screened in front of the MTV executives as the pitch to see if they're going to greenlight the show. None of them had ever known that this had happened. And Judy McGrath, who was CEO of MTV—

AUBREY: Whose email you forged. 

BEN: Forge maybe is too strong a word, although I guess that's what it was. And they greenlit the episode. And so this crazy full circle moment of literally faking it till you make it. And the way that we got the show, we were like, we ended up actually getting offered a television show in Canada, but they wanted to own it, they were going to be in full creative control. And we were always like, we wanted to make this for our friends. We wanted our friends to really, really like this. And we didn't want to give up that creative control. And so when we sold it to MTV, we were adamant that we were executive producers. And so for a first time producer to jump to EP and be the talent is very unusual. And so we were able to keep that creative control and then carry that throughout the show, which was really hard to make a show like that, because we had no idea how to make a television show. But we learned very quickly and burned a couple of bridges, to be honest, because people were so used to making traditional reality TV, which is scripted. It's so indicative of the whole project of just, blindly running towards that light you just want. The fact that we were young, dumb and broke when we started this ended up being such a gift. And I think if you can keep that naivete and that youthfulness inside as you grow older, doesn't mean that you have to say fuck it, I'm going to quit my job, travel in an RV for a year. But just those little sparks that you can follow to be like, you know what, I do want to do stand-up comedy. I'm going to take improv classes. I know I got to take care of the kids, I know I got the job. But I'm just going to sign up for this shit. I'm going to get on stage. Because I just always wanted to do it. That's what the list is about. It's not about the big accomplishments. If you want to do big things, I feel like you have to do it. That's your true original course. But instead of thinking about this as, what's your purpose? What are all the little purposes that you have? What are all those little things that are going to make you feel alive? And what I realized is that your list is just a device to remind you that those things exist in a world that constantly buries those things. 

AUBREY: Yeah. Everybody wants to tell you that these things aren't possible, these things aren't realistic, these things aren't. And I think it's part of people's own frustration with themself that they haven't followed their own things. And I don't think people are aware that they're doing this. But if they can create a world where these things truly aren't possible, then they don't have to bear the responsibility and guilt that they didn't go for the thing that could have been possible for them. So, it's almost like they try to eradicate it from the field. It's not possible. So, I don't have to feel guilty about not doing it, because it's not possible for anybody. And I think that's like a little trap that we get caught in where people think they're giving good advice. But really, they're actually trying to squash our dreams because they squashed their own. 

BEN: Right. And they don't want to feel like they have that guilt of not going after that thing. But I think if you look at the research, whether or not you admit that that guilt is there or not, it'll catch up to you. And on your deathbed, 76% of people, their number one regret, is I wish I would have lived for me. Not other people, not what was expected of me. I think the problem is, a lot of people don't quite even know that they're not living for them. Because they've convinced themselves that this is what I want. And this is what I'm supposed to do. So, this is what I'm doing. When you actually force yourself to slow down and write down the things that are important to you, or have a conversation with your partner about what's important to you as a partner, as a couple, or with your family, what's important to us? What do we actually want? It opens up this space to actually look at, am I doing this for me or am I doing this because it's what I think I want? And that's sometimes a hard thing to figure out. And sometimes for me, the thing that's been helpful is not thinking about it but feeling it. If I am curious about something or if just the thought of it makes me feel excited, like I've got a trip with friends to Columbia in September. And just the thought of it, I get butterflies. I'm like, this is going to be so much fun. And so how can you follow those types of feelings to lead you down this experiment? You don't want to look at it like this is my thing. Just an experiment. You're just trying it. You're going to see one, if it works, and one, if it makes you happy. And then you find something, you're like, that makes me happy. Boom. Okay, great. Now I know. Put that in the toolkit of these things that I know I'm going to do because they bring me a sense of joy. And now the hard part is, how do I keep myself accountable to those things? How do I not forget about those things? Because the day-to-day, it will just bury you. And it's going to get worse and worse, unfortunately, because of just, I think, the way that we're headed with social media, with the disconnect that we have with these meaningful connections. But it doesn't mean that you can't create your own systems of accountability. 

AUBREY: I think that's an important part. I think first is connecting to your desire, trusting your desire. And then I think we try to protect ourselves from our desires because we think that our desire is dependent upon the success of that thing that we're desiring. But really, it's not. What we really want is the desire itself. And so when you realize that your desire is desire, and if you follow desire, you can't lose because you're desiring desire in the first place, that feeling of fire. And you're no longer outcome-dependent upon whether this was success or failure. A lot of the fear starts to dwindle away, you're like—

BEN: Because there's no failure. 

AUBREY: There is no failure, it doesn't exist. So, you don't have to worry about that. 

BEN: Yeah. You're just going on the ride. It's not like on the roller coaster, you're like, can't wait to the end. I guess some people are, they're freaked out, they puke on their friends. 

AUBREY: If you're terrified. I've been really studying and trying to create a map for, it started as a map for the mind. But where I run into trouble is the mind is inextricably connected to the field of mind of capital M mind itself, like the field of all mind. And there's a shadow expression to that, which is all of the people who will tell you what's possible, what's not possible, what you should do, what you shouldn't do. And we are connected to that. Then there's also the lighter side of the field, which is a sensing of things of how you can fit in and serve the world by listening to the real needs, and also listening to how you can play your instrument in this universal symphony. So, we can't separate ourselves from the field and we shouldn't. But we just have to tune our ears in such a way that we're actually instead of listening to the conditioned, failed dream chorus of sorrow, that's coming out, and doubt and fear, listening to that other side of this is possible. And if I do this, this will actually help a lot of people. And it's listening to that voice. Come on, you can do this, help us. Tuning into that is really a potent force of motivation.

BEN: I like the idea of playing your own instrument. That's a really cool image. Because I think that the more that you can find out what that instrument is, or what that thing that makes you feel most like yourself, so that true core energy, I think that's how you make your biggest impact. The more you are yourself, the more impact you will create, and the more you're actually giving to others, because then you can be a better version of yourself. Therefore, you can be better at your job, you can be a better husband, wife, better parent, you show up for people in a better way. And what I've realized is, as I said, when I start to feel stuck and things aren't working for me, little things. Why is this so hard? I'm trying to book this dentist appointment and it's fucking not happening. Little things in my life are just, and when a lot of that starts to compound, I realize something in my life I'm not being authentic to. There's something that I need to change here. I start to get depressed, I start to lose sleep. And I realize that there's a part of my life that I need to change. And it's happened a couple of times. And it's either in the focus of the work that I've done. For instance, after the show, we started a production company, same three boys. And we started making television shows because we just made "The Buried Life" show and were like, we can make this for other people. People that have a story, we can keep the integrity of their creative. And so, we sold a couple shows. It was working but I hated the day-to-day. I hate the work. It was very hard for me to accept that I was going to fail at that, I was going to stop doing that. And I remember talking with my uncle at the time. And he was a producer for a long time. And he said, you're not starting from the beginning, you're recycling your career. And just that idea, recycling my career, and being like, I'm not starting from the beginning, I'm just shifting, made a huge, huge difference for me. And then I shifted. I told the guys, listen guys, I felt so guilty. I was like, I'm so sorry. I'm not the dude to run this. I can't do it. And I know we've worked so hard, and I feel terrible. And luckily, one of the other guys was like, you know what, I want to do it. I love this shit. And so, it ended up working out. I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do. And I did a TEDx talk. Did a TEDx talk. I really was scared to do it, but I was like, you know what, just because I'm scared to do this, I probably want to do it. And that launched me into speaking and ultimately got me into looking at, why are people not going after their dreams? And led me to reading "The Bucket List Journal." But this shift of following my true course, anytime I start to feel stuck, it's in part because I'm not doing that. And it's actually interesting. I did this pretty profound ketamine breathwork experience. And it was a guided—

AUBREY: Now we're talking the same language. 

BEN: This is like your love language basically. 

AUBREY: Yes, exactly. 

BEN: So, breathwork in itself is just like a drug. So, I started to feel, you know when you do heavy breath work, and your hands start to curl and—

AUBREY: It's called tetany. 

BEN: Yeah, exactly. So, I start to feel that. And we're doing intermittent doses of ketamine through nasal spray. It was very low, but you kind of dose it yourself. And I started to feel this energy in my hands. And you sort of feel your hands getting to that state. And so, I felt this energy, I was like, wow, this is powerful. And then I felt this really powerful energy in my chest, like a rod, kind of like a cylindrical rod that was deep in my stomach and chest. And I was like, wow, what's that? So, I sort of dove in to see what that was. I go in and it's like this really vibrant, really strong, almost like, when you see a nuclear glowing. And I go in and I look at and I was like, What's that power? And I was like, oh, shit, that's me. I am the most powerful. I can tap into my true potential when I'm true to myself. And if I'm not being true to myself, then I'm leaving all this stuff on the table. And this was a reminder of a year or two of me having to realize this through some other stuff, through relationships and through some other stuff. But it was just reinforced, this whole idea, this is all this is about. This is the journey, tapping into that true you. That image of that rod just stuck with me of realizing like whoa, there is a lot of potential if you stay true to that. 

AUBREY: You have a bit of, and we may have covered a bit of it already, but you have a list of things that stop people from actually going for it. What is your guidance for people who are getting inspired? Maybe they're listening right now imagining, fuck it, we're going to do it. What are the spots where they're going to get stuck? And how do you move through these spots where people get stuck? 

BEN: So, the top three things from Tom Gilovich's research, he's a professor at Cornell and a psychologist, he wrote a paper called "The Ideal Road Not Taken." And this is consistent with what Bronnie Ware, the palliative care nurse found in her book "The Top Five Regrets of the Dying." Number one, we've talked about it, is fear, the fear of what other people think or the fear of failure. The second is there's no deadlines with these personal goals. And we got deadlines for everything else. So, with the personal goals, they always get pushed. And we think we have all this time, but three quarters of the population realize they don't because they reach their deathbed and they haven't done it. And the third is you're usually waiting to feel inspired to go after these things. So, you're waiting for the perfect time, and that inspiration rarely hits. So, those are the big three barriers. The way that you get through them. Number one, we talked about the fear. Understanding that people aren't thinking about you as much as you think. And that there is no real failure. As long as your basic needs are met. You have to identify the risks, not the fear. So, write down what your real risks are. Are they financial? Is it being able to provide. All those things are legitimate risks. But the stuff that's connected to ego, what other people think, failure, not as much. So, that's the fear piece. I think the accountability piece is huge because if you think about it, a lot of what we have to drive us forward as professionals is accountability. We have a salary to keep us accountable. We don't want to look bad. We don't want to let down our teams. We have leaders to keep us accountable. So, how can we create those same structures of accountability around our personal goals? Number one, write your bucket list, because it's actually more powerful than you think. You force yourself to slow down to think about what's important to you. So, there's a huge win right there because you're ahead of 76% of the population by actually stopping to identify what you really want, not what other people want. It's a reminder that it exists. And as you get buried by the day-to-day, you come back to your list. So, that's a great way to create accountability, a very small, easy step. You want to just take small, easy steps. The second is to talk about it. Share your list. Talk about it with your family, with your friends, with your followers. Because if you talk about your list, you then feel accountable to them. If I tell you I'm going to write a book, that's my big goal, and I bump into you six months later, and you're like, hey, how's the book coming? I'm like, I better start writing that book. So, you feel accountable to those—

AUBREY: Harder than you might imagine if that's on your list. A is no joke. 

BEN: Yeah. 

AUBREY: But that doesn't mean you shouldn't fucking do it. Go do it. 

BEN: You looked at the camera there. You mean it. 

AUBREY: Go for it. Just letting you know. Pack a lunch. 

BEN: You're thinking about putting on the mentor hat. Do it. It's going to suck. 

AUBREY: Do it. Just pack a lunch 

BEN: Pack a lunch. What Mr. Gilovich found is you can increase your chances of success by 77% if you have an accountability buddy checking in with you, or you send regular updates to that accountability buddy. So, right there, write your list, share it, get an accountability buddy. And that's what the journal is designed to do, is you write your list in those 10 categories. You write down who's your accountability buddy. You call them and you tell them that. You set a reward so that you actually have something if you achieve it. That creates accountability. Set a deadline. And you start to build inspiration by taking action, which I think combats the last barrier, which is you're waiting for inspiration to hit you. You don't wait. You create your own inspiration through action. You're the architect of your own inspiration by taking movement. And sometimes you over plan and we forget that action is the plan. So, what's the smallest thing you can do in the next 48 hours? Write them down, start that momentum. And you start to feel the inspiration as you go. 

AUBREY: There's a quote that comes to mind and I think it's a Yeats quote, but I'm not really sure. It’s “do not wait to strike until the iron is hot. Instead, make the iron hot by striking.”

BEN: I love that. That's a great one. 

AUBREY: That's a great quote. Maybe Christian can look up to see if that is Yeats or not. But I haven't thought of that quote in a while. 

BEN: I think that is me. 

AUBREY: It's that classic wisdom of, no, the iron will get hot. You just apply the hammer and the opportunity will come. It's Yeats. All of these things are so key and actionable. And I think another curiosity that I have to get into is not only the philosophy behind it, which is super important, but also, how the fuck did you do some of these things on your list? So, I think we got to go into a couple of stories here. Some of these were fucking incredible for me to get. Number eight, play ball with President Obama. 

BEN: That was a juggernaut. 

AUBREY: That's a big one. 

BEN: That's a big one. 

AUBREY: You're writing that one down, and you got to be laughing to yourself when you write that down. 

BEN: 100%. I remember Johnny called me in 2008. President Obama just got elected. He's like, Benny, let's put ‘play basketball with the President’ on the list. And I laughed. That was my reaction. That is the most impossible thing. By the way, way pre-MTV show. We're just a bunch of kids living on an island in Canada. I was like, that's the most impossible thing we could think of. He said, yeah. How amazing would it be though? And I couldn't argue. I couldn't argue. So, we’re, like, put it on the list. And this is actually one of the things that we went after for the show. And we told MTV, we're doing this. They're like, don't do this, they were going to waste a lot of money filming this episode. And we're like, we're going after it. And it was just the four of us, that was a whole rule even when we were doing the show. You guys can't help us with anything. We're on our own. We're going to try and make this happen. So, what do we do? We know no one in Washington. We just drive our purple nudists bus to Washington DC, start asking people on the street. Hey, excuse me, do you know anybody connected to the president? Obviously, I didn't get very far. Then we started just emailing politicians to their offices. We're trying to play basketball the president to prove that—

AUBREY: This is the classic, make the iron hot by striking. 

BEN: We are striking. We are striking everything. We are picketing outside the White House with signs wearing basketball uniforms. We heard Reggie Love, who's the president's personal aide who set up all the games... I don't know if you remember, or you heard about these secret basketball games that happened in DC. And Reggie Love was the personal aide to the president. He set up the games, he played ball at Duke. And he was the gatekeeper. So, he'd send out the text to a few senior officials. We're getting all these rejections, official nos. Even the Secretary of Transportation put in a call for us to the White House while we were in the room. Official rejection letter from the White House. Sorry, we appreciate your desire to play basketball, but unfortunately, we cannot arrange for a basketball game with the president. We keep striking the iron. We're going after it. We hear Reggie Love works out at the Y every morning at 5:30. So, wake up at 5:00, go to the Y, loitering outside looking for this personal assistant of the president. We don't see him. We ask the guy at the front, have you seen Reggie Love? He's like no, but that guy that just walked in, that was the Secretary of Treasury, Tim Geithner. I was like, no way. I ran in. He's already got his suit and he's into the pool to do laps. I don't have a bathing suit, so I just take off my clothes and put a towel on. I'm just wearing my boxers underneath. I see him doing laps in the pool. I'm just sort of pretending to stretch, waiting for him to come up for air. Comes up for air. I'm like, excuse me. I'm kneeling down so he doesn't see I'm just wearing boxers. And I ask him, we're trying to do this thing. I immediately feel like, oh my god, what am I doing? Then I look up at the window. I see the Secret Service just looking at me. Just like they're going to jump through the window. And I'm like, oh my god, I gotta get out of here. And he was nice. But clearly, he was like, sure, email my assistant. So, all these nos. Finally, we get Reggie Love's email, what we think is his email, and we start challenging him and the president to a basketball game. We're like, you and the president versus us, 7:30 tonight, the YMCA. Be there. And we just show up. We did that for a week. No president, no president, no president. Finally, we're like, there's literally nothing we can think of doing anymore. We're starting to piss people off. We need to just leave. And so, we accept defeat. I end up getting a call, a blocked number. And I pick it up and all I hear is, what's this I hear about you wanting to play basketball against the president? And it's the personal aide of the president. And I explain to him why. I'm like, yes, sir. And he says, you know what, I like this. I think I can make this happen. Give me two weeks. I need to run it by the press team. And they sign off on everything. They sign off on this, we can do this. I feel really good about it. I'll call you back in two weeks. So, two weeks rolled around. I got the call. He said gentlemen, talked with the press team, it's not going to happen. We're gutted. He felt bad. He's like, if you ever back in DC, sorry, guys, it's out of my hands, let me know. I'll give you a tour of the White House. And we go back to DC a couple months later. The personal aide, beauty. He gives us a full tour. Shows us his office. We're like, this is right next to the Oval Office. Shows us the White House basketball courts. Perfect courts, manicured hedges, presidential seal on each hoop, one presidential basketball. And we're like, can we film this for a minute? Just get a clip so we can show our friends? And he's like, yeah, the president's not in town. Go for it. And we're filming. And all we hear is, President Obama rolls on the cart. Just strolls on. Say, hey, guys, I heard you're in town. Though the least I could do is shoot a basket with you. And we're just totally awestruck. Completely dumbfounded. He was not supposed to be in town because he had a trip scheduled, but he stayed to pass a bill. Nobody knew. So, we legitimately were very, very surprised. And what was so cool about that was, you kind of have to shake yourself to believe that it's happening. Because I remember writing this down and really believing—

AUBREY: Was he in a suit? Was he in loafers? 

BEN: Yeah, he just rolled up his sleeves. We shot around with him for like 20 minutes. The White House photographer was there. Immediately, you forget he's the president because he's so cool. He's so disarming. He's like your friend's dad in high school. That was so cool, you go hang out with your friend, but you're really hanging out with his dad. We're trash talking to each other, trying to hit shots. The other person isn't hitting. He's a lefty. So, he's got a pretty low release, but he's pretty smooth. We're having a really fun and nice time with him. And he's like, I heard you guys help people. I like that. And that moment was pretty monumental for me, because here was this thing that I thought was impossible. Here it was happening. So, I had no choice to believe that anything was possible because it had just happened. And I was like, I guess you can do anything. I feel like everyone has the ability to prove to themselves that they can do those things. And that if they just take small steps towards their goals, eventually they're going to get to that place where they're like, holy crap, I did the thing. I didn't think I could do that. A couple of those dominoes fall, and all of a sudden, your whole perspective changes. And when you face a challenge, you're not like, can I do this? You're like, do I want to do this? Because I know it's going to be hard. But does this align with who I truly am? And do I want to put in the work to make this happen? Does it mean enough to me? And I think we all have that power to do that. 

AUBREY: I'm fucking inspired. Do you know Alex Banayan? 

BEN: I love Alex Banayan. 

AUBREY: You guys have some similar tangents of your stories of impossible things that you've pulled off from this unrelenting belief and this willingness to just put yourself in the fray. And both trust and go for it, and surrender to what is, and all of the things that are necessary. Even the idea of that many rejections is fuckin intimidating for me. But to be willing to move through after all of these doors, getting shut, getting shut, getting shut, getting shut, and then finally, the door opens. When you've practiced that and realized that there's that possibility at the end of the line, it's got to change your whole life at that point. That's a moment that nothing is ever the same really after that, because then you realize, legitimately, what's on the inside cover of your book, the impossible is possible, that's not a hypothetical inspirational thing you put on a fucking T-shirt, that's like you lived it in a way. 

BEN: Yeah. And once you see that, it does change the way that you operate. And, as I said, I think we all have that ability. The other thing that completely changed the way that I operate is the energy when we help other people achieve their dreams. The first time we helped someone, we gave this dude the truck because he was living in a homeless shelter, and he wanted to start a landscaping business. And he wrote into us and he was like, before I die, I want to bring pizzas to the homeless shelter. And we were like, finally, someone we can help. We don't have any money but we can definitely buy some pizzas. We're like, meet us here. Let's interview you and let's make this happen. So, we go, we interview this guy. And we learned that the reason he wanted to give pizzas to the homeless shelter is because he had lived in the homeless shelter for a while. And he said, when people come in with food, it's like the best day. Felt like someone cared about him. And he sort of started this business, but his truck had broken down. And everything was on the rocks. And we come out of that interview and we're like, we gotta get this dude a truck. But we had $480 between the four of us, Canadian, less. So, it was like, maybe $350, depending on the day. But we charged a used car salesman, we were like, sir, we need a truck, give us your cheapest truck. There's a guy in your community and he needs this truck. What's your cheapest truck? He's like, there it is, boys. 2,100 bucks. We're like, we got $480. And we told him the story of Brent and he's like, alright, let's do it. We're still young and dumb. We didn't even know that you needed insurance. He's like, What about insurance? And we're like, uh. He's like, I'll pay for insurance. He paid for insurance out of his own pocket. Give us the keys, we drive it up to Brent, toss him the keys. Here's your truck. Brent just stands there, bear hugs me and starts to cry. Which was the first time we'd ever helped anybody. And someone that we didn't know. And this was 2006. And we come out of that experience, we're like, we got to keep doing this. This is pretty cool. And so, throughout the years, it's been really amazing moments. You see the list, you don't have the list of us helping other people. But reuniting a father and son after 17 years. Helping a girl get a bionic hand that she always wanted. Helping someone find her mom's grave that she couldn't, didn't know where her mom was buried, because she passed away in Katrina and they were separated. Those moments are really cool. And you stay in touch with those people. You share a moment that means so much to them. All of a sudden, you're friends for life. You have this connection because you shared this experience that means so much to them. So, you really get to know. And I think that that's a huge thing for me, that I've realized how powerful it is. Giving without expectation and just giving to, you know it'll give back to you because you're going to fuel up from that. 

AUBREY: Actually, when you do it right, there's a collapse between giving and receiving. Actually, the act of giving is you receiving immediately at the same time. So, there's no waiting for anything to return. It's happening in simultaneity. As you're giving, you're watching the receipt of which then fills you back up. And it's this infinity loop that's actually flowing. And that's when you know you're in the right sweet spot. It's not like I'm going to give you this and wait. If you're waiting, you fucked it up. It's right then, right now, in the moment. The giving is the gift for you in return. And that's it. That way, you avoid all this expectation. And then, for the person receiving, it's also like you can get in this trap, and Mark Manson talks about this. You can get in this trap of, now, I feel like I owe something. But really, if you understand that any true giving, all they want to see is the full receipt of that gift, or a compliment, like you give a compliment and someone tears up and they're like, thank you, that's all you need. 

BEN: That's what you gave the compliment for. 

AUBREY: Yeah, exactly. That's why you give the gift, you give the compliment. But all too often, we'll shy away from giving somebody our gratitude back because we're afraid that we'll owe them something if we actually allow ourselves to receive it. But all we owe them is the receipt of the thing itself. 

BEN: A good analogy is if it's your birthday, or I get you a gift, I'm getting you the gift because I think it's going to make you happy. So, it's going to make me happy seeing you receive that gift and be surprised and be happy. But it's like me giving you a gift and you being like, here's your gift back. No, wait, wait. Open the gift. I actually got this for you because I think you're going to like it. I don't need that gift. I think too, the other thing where there's a parallel to, I've definitely felt like this. And I think a lot of people get stuck up on this when it comes to asking for help if you're struggling. Let's say you're going through any type of emotional struggle, and you're worried about being a burden for someone else. So, you don't want to reach out to someone for help because you're like, I don't want to be that person that maybe is always being this burden. I want to suck it up and I want to figure it out. I just don't want to ask for help. But what you're doing when you ask for help, it's like at that moment, you're opening the door for them to come back to you in their eventual time of need. Because the truth is, just look at the data, everyone's going to go through a mental health crisis in their life. Not necessarily from a mental illness, but from bereavement, divorce, whatever. 

AUBREY: Or one of the thousand micro crises that we all face, where we're just a little down. And beyond them, being there to help you in that moment, you're opening a true authentic opportunity for someone to help you is actually the number one thing that anybody can recommend to pull you out of depression anyways, is to actually be of service to somebody else. You're really giving them the gift of being able to give to you. And so the idea of not asking for help is crazy. Even if I'm in a down state, I have a friend who really needs me, and I show up and I'm really there for him. All of a sudden, wait, why was I depressed again? I forgot. It reminds me who I am. 

BEN: It reminds you who you are. Your brain doesn't have the ability to think of two things at once. So, you can't think about how shitty you feel and the other person at the same time. So, you're just like, I'm just thinking about you. I'm not as depressed as I used to be because I'm not just spinning these negative thoughts in my head. And that's actually one of the things that I like to have in these habits that help me get out of any funk. Helping others is one of them because of that exact, what you just said. You get a sense of fulfillment, you build a meaningful connection with someone, and you stop thinking about your own problems. And then the other things, purpose is in there. That's why the list is important. Connection, talking about these things. And getting out in nature. You just get out in nature, 20 minutes. You don't have to exercise, you're just going to feel a little bit better. 

AUBREY: Yeah. That's another huge hack. You know Charlie, and the Dream Machine? 

BEN: Yeah. 

AUBREY: Charlie was on the podcast. 

BEN: I love Charlie. I met Charlie just before he biked, and did the big bike. Charlie met about four years ago. And Alex Banayan I met just when he started writing his book. And so you see, there's a little blurb in there about our meeting. You see these people that are creating these ripple effects. Just unabashedly just charging for. And I think that we can all appreciate that. We have this reverence for people that have that audacity to go after the thing in spite of all the odds, and in spite of what other people think. 

AUBREY: And the universality between it is you all believe that it's possible. Charlie, one of his things is pro-noia. It's the belief that the universe is conspiring for you at all times. And he's pro-noid as fuck. The universe is always conspiring. And then anything happens and he's like, “we're on a winning streak! We're on a winning streak!” And he gets so fired up. And that energy creates this fucking miraculous thing after miraculous thing just like your story. And same with Alex. It was this fucking belief that it was possible, that he could get on "Price is Right," and that he could do this, I can do it, we can do it. And then putting full maximum energy. Maximum, nothing held back. Just absolute audacity. What they would say in the Kabbalist Lineage is tekufah, the sacred audacity to just go step in with full force, divinely inspired. And that becomes like this magnet. I can track many of the great things that happened in my life to moments where I was filled with that type of energy. And at that point, I was like the Galaga machine and I was just pulling in other different resources, connections, opportunities, because I was just filled with that lifeforce. 

BEN: Yeah. And that drew in people that also were supporting you to be that person and to do that thing. Even when you think about people that are just dreaming so big, you get inspired just by that act of dreaming. You're like, wow, I want to be involved with that. And then it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

AUBREY: Yeah, absolutely. All right. We're winding down here. You got to get to the airport. But I have to ask you, what Guinness Book of World Records record did you manage to take down? 

BEN: It's pretty lame actually. 

AUBREY: It doesn't matter. Because if you think about that and you're like some records, probably not a lot of heavy contests. 

BEN: We did the largest speed dating event in Florida. 

AUBREY: But don't they have to get sanctioned? You have to talk to Guinness. 

BEN: The Guinness dude came. He came out and gave us the plaque and we celebrated. 

AUBREY: The interesting part of that is not actually being able to throw that, which seems like some logistics. And you got to have some reach and whatever to throw at that. But how do you get that? Was there a previous largest speed dating event or was that a new category? 

BEN: There was a previous one that we had to topple. 

AUBREY: Did you read the book and were like, this one is sus. We can fucking take this one out for sure. 

BEN: This one's got our name on it. No, no. That was my dream from the beginning. It was playing basketball with Obama and the largest speed dating. Yeah. I think that was one that we knew we could topple. So, we had to get everyone—

AUBREY: I just want to know what it was like when you and your buddies were reading the book, and then somebody must have found that one and be like, yo, this one is sus for sure. 

BEN: Yeah, that's exactly how it happened. Most of them were very, very hard. So, that was one that we could actually do. 

AUBREY: Well, I hope this inspires some other people to look through the Guinness Book of World Records and be like, there's some sus shit in here we can—

BEN: if you take one thing away from this podcast. 

AUBREY: Alright, there's another one. Solve a crime or capture a fugitive. I'm thinking like some Dog the Bounty Hunter shit. 

BEN: Yeah, exactly. We worked with a bounty hunter in LA and we followed him to—

AUBREY: And it wasn't Dog, a non-dog—

BEN: It was non-dog. It wasn't Dog, dog. 

AUBREY: Dog had some fucking crazy scandal happen. What happened with Dog? I think Dog's in the dog house. 

BEN: Dog in the doghouse. We went with a different Dog, who’s not in the doghouse. We just legitimately went along with a bounty hunter looking for someone that was skipping bail and had to track down this guy at night. And it's sort of freaky because you knock on a door and you don't know what's going to happen. And they may come with you easily or it may come down to running after them. And it ended up being fairly non-combative. But it was a little bit of a tussle. B there's 5, 6 of us. 

AUBREY: Did you have to get a bounty license or are you just operating under the radar of the bounty hunters. 

BEN: We were underneath the dog. We were mini dogs. 

AUBREY: What a crazy class of human that still exists, bounty hunter? 

BEN: Right? Kind of like mavericks. 

AUBREY: Yeah, for real. 

BEN: I don't think you go to too much training. You're just like, I'm going to go get that dude. You just put your name at the top of the phonebook. A, A, A, A, bail bonds or bounty hunter and you just get the call and you're like alright, I'll get him. That was hectic. The other thing that was very hectic was streaking a field and trying to get away, which we had this whole plan to do the perfect streak. We went to an MLS game, a soccer game. 

AUBREY: You were inspired by your bus. No tan lines. 

BEN: That's 100%. I don't even think about that. Nod to the nudist. 

AUBREY: Nod. Tip the cap. 

BEN: Nod to the no tan lines. We went to an MLS game. We had this, what we thought was the perfect plan, which was, one guy streaks. Two guys dress up like security. They track the guy that is streaking and be the first of the security to tackle them. And then all dressed up like I work for the team in a polo shirt that I buy at the gift shop, khaki pants, earpiece, walkie talkie, clipboard. And I'll go out just before the streak and I'll try and convince everyone, it's a promo, guys. We're about to start the promo, kind of creating some confusion. And try and get Johnny the streaker from the two security who are the two other guys and get away scot-free. Pretty terrible plan to be honest. 

AUBREY: I don't know, the plan sounds pretty good. 

BEN: We thought so too. In hindsight, way more police. They were in abundance. So, we roll in and all of a sudden, we're like, wow, there's a lot of cops here. And we're Canadian and we don't want to get kicked out of the country. This is tricky. Keep in mind, we also are filming so we have to film under the guise—

AUBREY: Blue Jays game? What are we talking? 

BEN: This was an MLS soccer game. We couldn't even get permission to film at any major league sporting event. This was Major League Soccer. But it was, still a lot of people. At the time, Kansas City Wizards. And we're like, we're doing this. Right away, the cops are like, you two guys dressed up, you look like security but you're clearly not, what's going on? And they are kind of tracking my two friends, who by the way, we got a seamstress to make tearaway pants just in case they needed to streak as well. Because there may be a situation where we just got to all go for it. Anyhow, I'm on the walkie. I got a call from the producer. The two security guys, Duncan and Dave, they're being tracked. It just might be you and Johnny who's streaking. You're going to have to tackle Johnny and get us out of here. I'm like, oh, great. So, I go out with the clipboard, I walk out with confidence. I'm like, alright, boys, a promotional streak is happening in 30 seconds, at the one tunnel entrance to the field. And I'm just talking to security and stuff and they're like, what are you talking about? They just are confused. I'm like, hold this tracksuit. I'm going to need it in a second. I'm just telling everyone the streak's happening. And there's cops. Oh my God. Then I hear uproar from the crowd, and I see Johnny just streaking in his cleats. Zigging back and forth. I'm like, here we go. 

AUBREY: Full nude, boxers—

BEN: Yeah, yeah. Nude. And he goes. And I'm like, I got to catch Johnny. I'm yelling at him. He's dicking because he's got cleats on. Security's coming out. I tackle Johnny. And I'm trying to tell everyone, it's a promo. It's a promo. 

AUBREY: All those rugby skills. 

BEN: There you go, yeah. Below the shoulders. Football tackle. This is a proper topic. 

AUBREY: Not leading with the head. 

BEN: So, I got him. So, I stick him, put him on the ground. And I'm like, alright guys, promo. All of a sudden, he's already getting handcuffed. There's cops everywhere. I'm like, oh my god, I get up in a daze and I hear another roar from the crowd. The two security guys, Duncan and Dave, took the distraction of Johnny and they go. Now these guys are going. It's mayhem. Everyone's jumping on the field. I'm like, oh my God. We're all going to jail. I think I have to streak too. But I didn't have tearaway pants. So, I just awkwardly take my shorts off, take off my shirt. And I feel a grab on my ankle. Someone in the dogpile that's gotten Johnny grabs my ankle. I'm like, nope, I rip my foot out. I'm now just in socks and I take off the other way. You got to go on video. You can see this on Vimeo. I think there's a clip of us streaking. And I go. I try and do a spin move to miss a tackle. Can't spin moving in socks. 

AUBREY: No. 

BEN: And down. Anyways, I didn't get away. We did cross off spend a night in jail, which was on the list. 

AUBREY: Two for one. 

BEN: One for two. One for two. So, that was a wild one. We competed in a Krump competition in South Central. I didn't have any experience dancing. This was my biggest fear, dancing in front of people. Ended up being an amazing experience. Such fun, cool, and welcoming. We go into this heated environment, and everyone just gives us so much love just for trying. We survived on a desert island, which was also wild because we were like, let's go, and "Lost" was big at the time. Let's just pretend like we go down in a plane and we have to survive. But you can't do any research. You're just on a plane, all of a sudden, you got to survive on a deserted island. But we can all bring one thing. And it can't be fire and it can't be food. You can bring one thing. We brought a machete. I brought a headlamp for the night. Johnny brought a pot so that we could try and distill water. And Dave brought a mask and snorkel. We're like, what are you going to go snorkeling? We need to live here. He's like, I'm going to spear fish. We're like no, you're not. You know how hard that is? So, he didn't end up getting any fish. 

AUBREY: With a stick? 

BEN: No, he did not get any. Couldn't get any. 

AUBREY: What was he going to try with? 

BEN: He was going to try and get it with a stick. That was his plan. But he wasn't successful. It's a hard thing to do. 

AUBREY: Spearfishing is not easy even with a proper spear gun. 

BEN: Yeah, exactly. That's what we told him right away. But it's too late. 

AUBREY: It would have been way better just to bring the spear and then you can just use your eyeballs and look in the water. 

BEN: Yeah, exactly. So, we didn't tell each other what we were bringing. We're like, bring one thing, we tell. 

AUBREY: And then you see it and you're like, bro, really? Mask and snorkel? How's this going to help us? 

BEN: Where are we, Club Med? No, it's not going to help. He did catch us some crabs. 

AUBREY: Not bad. 

BEN: Not bad. But the biggest thing was making fire. 

AUBREY: Was it big enough to eat? 

BEN: They were kind of big enough to eat. We needed to boil them though. We couldn't just eat them. Maybe we could eat them raw. 

AUBREY: No, no. 

BEN: No. Thank you. It's a good thing we didn't. Anyways, the biggest thing was fire though. We lived off coconuts for three days which was pretty amazing that you can... 

AUBREY: Totally. 

BEN: So, drinking the water. But it was gnarly. Sleeping on the beach, you couldn't sleep. We were in the Cook Islands. They just dropped us off on an island and just left us. And so, there were rats on the island taking our coconuts, these huge coconut crabs. 

AUBREY: Stuff coconuts and snorkel anyways. Coconut Crabs. I don't know if you can eat those. 

BEN: For some reason, either we were scared of them, or we didn't know you could eat. Hindsight. 

AUBREY: I don't know if you can eat them. 

BEN: I don't know if you can. Anyways, the biggest thing was, we're getting quite loopy by day three. And we're like, we need to eat something, which means we need to make a fire. Again, we hadn't done any research. We didn't watch a YouTube video on how to start a fire. But we did have the general knowledge that you could rub a stick to something and you could eventually make fire. So, we're trying that and it's, obviously, very difficult to start a fire. 

AUBREY: You need a bow drill. 

BEN: So, it wasn't working. But we were also really ribbing Johnny, who bought the pot because we're like, we need fire to boil seawater and distill it. I don't know. But the top of the pot was glass, and we used it as a magnifying glass. We propped it up on sticks and the coconut husks were super flammable. And so, we were able to start a fire with the glass and make a hot point on the coconut husk. So, then we made the fire. And then, there were these big seabirds. And we were getting to the point where we're like, I think we need to eat one of those birds. And I was like, there's only one person that's going to. And at this point, Johnny was pretty much KO'd. He was getting sick. Dave was our sole provider of coconuts because he could climb the palm trees. And I was pretty much useless. I had my headlamp and so I was like, Duncan, you are going to be the only person that's going to be able to kill a bird. I'm sorry, but I don't know if I can come with you. I'm like, you got to go and can you do that? He's like, I can do it. And he was kind of getting like "Lord of the Flies. 

AUBREY: How long were you going to stay, a week? 

BEN: We were doing like four or five days. 

AUBREY: So, day three you were like, we fucking need food. 

BEN: Ideally, we got to eat. Yeah. So, Duncan goes. And he got a rock. And this is a little bit graphic. But he threw it and hit a bird out of a tree and actually killed it. And we put it on a stick and roasted it and ate it. And it was delicious. But also very wild to experience that. And then we cooked the crabs. We survived and lived to tell the story. 

AUBREY: And that was the last Caribbean albatross that ever existed. 

BEN: Yeah, we didn't go back to Club Med. We learned a lot through those adventures. 

AUBREY: These memories like this, these are like treasures. Honestly, what this is, is this is you opening up a treasure chest and showing me jewels of unimaginable splendor. And I'm getting the chance to go in, and all of us listeners are getting a chance to go in and look at these things that are filled with wonder, and awe, and hope, and magic. And that's what all of our memories are. They're just jewels that we can collect. And think of how many days in our lives, and weeks, and months, maybe even years, when we've got no jewels that we can harvest. Where's the jewels from that? Where's that story that I can tell and get people laughing, and get myself laughing, and feel this kind of, that's not the life I want to live. I want to live a life packed with jewels. And after this conversation, I'm even more inspired to do so than ever before. So, thank you, man. Thanks for doing this. And thanks for being one of those individuals that leads a life that the life itself is inspiring, even beyond the words which are intelligent and inspiring. So, fuck yeah. 

BEN: Thanks, man. That means a lot to me, considering how much I admire the work that you've done and who you are. And I'm fairly privileged to be able to actually be here and have this conversation with you. It's kind of surreal. So, it's a real honor. So, thank you for having me. And thank you everybody for listening. 

AUBREY: Cool. And we're all hanging out at Burning Man. 

BEN: Damn straight. 

AUBREY: Let's fucking go. "The Bucket List Journal." It's dope as hell. So, I encourage people to check this out. Amazon, normal places, where can you get it. 

BEN: You can get it on Amazon or writeyourlist.com, or if you go to my Instagram, which is @bennemtin. It's the one linked there. You can check it out. If anything, you can use those 10 categories as a guide when you write your list. You can think about all the different categories of your life and that's a great place to start. So, you can just look at those which are on the website. 

AUBREY: Cool. Thank you everybody for tuning in. Go after it. Go for your win. Fucking let's get it. 

BEN: Let's get it. 

AUBREY: Bye bye.