Cannabis is not the ‘gateway’ psychedelic. It is also disrespectful to call it weed. The right cannabis in the right context is one of the most powerful psychedelic medicines on the planet. This podcast covers everything you might want to know about how to cultivate it, how to utilize it for maximum benefit, what to stack it with (and what NOT to stack it with) and how to connect with the spirit of the plant. Cannabis is legal in 19 states and readily available nationwide, so it’s high time to cultivate a beautiful relationship with her beyond the ‘anxiety’, ‘munchies’, or ‘sleepiness’, that are side effects of what she is really trying to do. Ryan Sprague is a master cultivator and experientialist with this plant, and this conversation was as potent as some of his strains.

Connect with Ryan Sprague

Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/therealryansprague/

Check out Highly Optimized

Website | https://www.highlyoptimized.me/

Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/highly.optimized/

Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/Highly.Optimized

AUBREY: Ryan. 

RYAN: Aubrey.

AUBREY: Here we are. And I have to tell everybody, I come from a lineage of podcasting, which includes Joe Rogan, in which the sacraments used for that podcasting is cannabis. But I have not done my dutiful job at weaving cannabis into my podcast, like my forefather, Mr. Rogan. Except for this podcast, the entirety of my preparation was smoking your weed. 

RYAN: Yes. 

AUBREY: So here we are. And let me say this, like I've had experiences with cannabis. Cannabis was the first psychedelic medicine, drug, whatever you want to call it, because at that point, I don't know if you could even call it medicine that I ever tried. I was like, 16, I had older stepbrothers. They gave me some cannabis, it was a fucking blast. And it was a blast, for like, all the way up until college. And then it started to stress me the fuck out mostly. And I could use it if I was going to pair it with yoga or going to pair it with breath work or going to pair it with something else, but had to be very selective. Body work, it was great. Anything that was somatic. And so I've kind of had a tenuous relationship with it. Even when I'd go on Joe's podcast, he'd pass around the joint. I'd take a little bit, but I was mindful, because I didn't want to fucking start thinking about the millions of people that were going to be listening to what I was saying. So then, I got access to try some of your cannabis, which came highly recommended from Paul Chek and from some other people that I trust, and I got a chance to try it. And I was like, holy shit, there's fucking levels to the game. And the levels aren't how many fucking crystals of THC you can pack in a nugget. That is not the criteria, the criteria is not trying to turn plant into shatter, so that you can get so fucking high. That's not the criteria for incredible medicinal cannabis. And I've really felt like I've been able to connect to the spirit of Santa Maria. Like the medicinal spirit, as my maestro, my ayahuasca Maestro Hamilton Souther said, the head medicine spirit of cannabis somehow comes through the strains that you're cultivating. And for that reason alone, I was like, I got to talk to this guy and meet him on a podcast. 

RYAN: It's so amazing to hear that, man, because for me, cannabis has been a long journey. And a lot of people ask me, why cannabis? Why are you interested in cannabis? Why not all the other plant medicines? Where the ones I've experienced do incredible things, but for me and my own personal journey, we can get into this if you want to. For me, when I first found cannabis, I was 16 experiencing anxiety. And the only thing that helped was cannabis. I tried every pharmaceutical known to man. And with every one that didn't work, I kept feeling like is this going to be the way my life is forever? And so, when I finally found cannabis, it actually worked. And how I would describe it today is it connected me deeper to myself. And it was just this great feeling where I was like, wow, I actually hopped into the observer point of view, and that's not the language I would use then. But now looking back on it, I was able to see that I wasn't my thoughts and what a profound realization to have. When you're 17, you're in the thick of it with school and everything like that. And of course, they don't teach you any of this stuff in school.

AUBREY: I wonder why for you, it allowed you to step outside and be the observer of your thoughts. Whereas for me, and for many people, it does the opposite. It collapses you into the paranoia of your thoughts. And maybe that's the fucking point, right? Maybe the point is, let's show you how miserable it is to be identified with your thoughts until you decide, "No, not going to fucking do this."

RYAN: 100%. And one of the ways I look at cannabis, as with any plant medicine, is as if it's a mirror, right? And so if it is a mirror, then we can see that like, what we're experiencing when we're interacting with cannabis and other medicines as well, is not actually the plant giving us paranoia or giving us anxiety, because that's an externalization of power. But it's showing us what's already in there. And it's showing us what might be in the way of saying, if we made an intention to be happy, what might be standing in the way of us actually being happy at the end of the experience? But in reality, I think a lot of people use cannabis as a means to an end, where they're looking for the effect of it. Where in reality, what I found is that the real medicine that comes from cannabis is in what is shown to you, what is illuminated for you when you're in that experience. And so, I think that big transition period for me of realizing that it wasn't the high I was looking for, like most of my friends at that time were looking for, it was what came through to me, what was aware to me when I got into that experience that really allowed me to connect deeply with cannabis at that time.

AUBREY: I mentioned Rogan at the start of this, but that was one of the things that he really appreciated about cannabis. He's like, I will eat a bunch of it or smoke a bunch of it, and then I will go in a float tank, and I will have to reckon with my thoughts. I will have to wrestle with myself until, and then he used that as a way to kind of forge his own psyche and be able to manage it. And of course, that's the way, right? The way is to put yourself in an uncomfortable situation, force an adaptation, or absolute misery, whatever way you want to go. But to use it in that context, I think is just an important reframe. So people are saying things like, “oh, cannabis gives me anxiety.” Great, great. You have anxiety anyways. So why don't you use this to exaggerate it, exaggerate your anxiety to the point that you can actually confront it. Bring it out of the woodwork so that you can deal with it.

RYAN: Yeah, one of my good buddies, Mark England has a quote that says, if you laugh at the devil, he will run away. And so when we think about anxiety, or any of these things, they can be seen as our devils. And so when we're actually able to just look at them, and we're actually able to tune into them, rather than try to run from them or distract ourselves from them as I did for many years, we're actually able to see like, oh, this isn't really as bad as I thought it was. It might still be challenging, but it's not as scary as I dreamt it up to be. Because in my experience, when I've actually looked into my shadow and things like that, it's really like, it's just never as bad as I thought it was going to be. And I think that's one of the biggest realizations that I've found, specifically with cannabis because it's the medicine I interact with most prevalently. But it's also helped me with other medicines as well, where I've been able to then go, oh, this is very similar to what I've experienced with cannabis. And like Joseph Campbell says, bliss is any emotion felt all the way through. So what I found is even in anxiety, even in paranoia, even in depression, I can find a blissful state within that if I actually just sit with that feeling instead of trying to run from it.

AUBREY: Yeah, bliss is any feeling fully felt, I think is actually how he phrased it. That's tough. That's tough. 

RYAN: Easier said than done.

AUBREY: Yeah, that takes some serious tuning in, in alchemy, the ability to actually take the stimulus, and then allow yourself to feel it. And, recalibrate it. I think a lot of times, the categorization of things, the label that we put on it actually determines what we feel about it. But if you really lived under that operating system, which of course is an operating system that I celebrate as much as I can for most things, because that's part of the poet's ethos, right? Like, what is a poet? A poet is somebody who allows himself or herself to feel so deeply that either the ecstasy or the anguish forms words that point back to that feeling that they feel. If you don't feel anything, your poetry is shit. It's contrivance, right? Because the words are just there to point to something you feel. And the more you feel it, the more your words have the opportunity to point to something that's real. And then there's the ecstasy of human experience, whatever that thing is. But these are higher level psycho technologies that we're kind of pointing to here.

RYAN: Absolutely. And I think for me, when I started tuning into these things, they were things I was feeling within the cannabis space that some of my friends just didn't seem like they were feeling. And I always say, like, where most of my friends were using it in a party atmosphere, when I was 16, 17, I would go in and watch "Star Wars", right? And I would just illuminate and think about things and really ask myself, like, what if any of this is actually true? And in that, I started actually facing some of these challenges and these demons that were inside of me. And what I realized was that the ability for it to connect with myself was amazing in and of itself. But when my father got diagnosed with cancer, and I had to help him through the end of life with cannabis, and I got to watch him connect deeper to his grandchildren, his other children, me. I got to hear stories from his childhood that I had never heard before. And I got to help him come to terms with his own mortality, that's where I really realized the true power of cannabis, and how much this can do for the human experience. Doesn't mean it's a given, right? Because, as you were saying, there's many different varieties and methods of cultivation with cannabis. And there's so many different quantitative and qualitative measures that go into cannabis being able to work in this way. And most of it is factory farmed these days, right? So just like industrialized meat, you're not going to get the same results as if you're eating grass fed meat, for instance. And I think that's an important distinction to make too, is that having worked in the industry myself, I know how most of these plants are being grown. And so, when I was able to help my dad through this process, with the medicine that we had cultivated together, it was just this experience for me, where I really started to realize, like, this is part of my purpose, this is part of my dharma, this is part of my path. And so, from there, I realized, wow, there's really no user manual out there for cannabis, right? It's the most prevalent, it's the most misunderstood I feel in many ways. But there's no user manual out there for it. No one really has got the user manual for how to interact with this plant. And I think that's one of the biggest challenges that we face today, is that people end up doing much more harm than good in most cases with cannabis.

AUBREY: Yeah, I hear all the time. Everybody knows I'm a psychedelic medicine advocate. And it's not to say that I'm advocating for everybody to do it, or for anybody to do it, but they understand that I tell about my experiences. And I've told about my experiences for as long as I had a platform to talk about them, and just tried to illuminate the benefits that they've had in my life. And people will come to me and they will say, "I could never do psychedelics because this one time I accidentally ate this weed cookie. And I got so high and it was the worst night of my life." And I was like, yeah. Like if you eat too much cannabis, it will be the most challenging experience and I'll fucking tell you, I've been in all the challenging experiences. Ayahuasca has brought me to brutal places of physical and mental anguish. Iboga told me for eight hours I was the biggest piece of shit on the planet, only at hour nine to be like, "Just kidding, bro." Like, played the long game. I've been in some gnarly situations. But once again, I had a buddy who made a cookie and I said, "How strong is this cookie?" "Oh, not strong at all." And it was goddamn delicious, and I ate that thing. And it was the worst night of my fucking life. The worst night of my fucking life out of all of the experiences I've had. Even Kambo, which isn't a classic psychedelic, but I got overdose of that. I went into anaphylactic shock, my throat swelled shut. I had a veterinary medicine special, emergency medicine specialist who was about to do a field tracheotomy on me in the middle of the fucking bush. That was better. That was better than when I had too much weed. So, for anybody out there, it's like, "I could never do anything because of this experience," no, this can be one of the most challenging experiences on the planet. Just know that. Just because it's legal and everybody seems to do it, doesn't mean that this is an easy road.

RYAN: Absolutely. And I think the thing with edibles is many people don't understand that when you consume cannabis and it gets metabolized by the liver, it gets turned into, delta-9 gets turned into a totally different cannabinoid called 11-Hydroxy-THC, which is 10 times more powerful and intoxicating than delta-9-THC. And so many people would come into the dispensary and we'd go, "Yeah, I smoke cannabis all the time. Just give me like, I don't know, a 200-milligram edible." I'm like, it doesn't work like that. I remember one time, long before I understood these things, a friend gave me a 250 milligram cake pop. And I was like, "Oh, it's a little tiny--"

AUBREY: Cake pop?

RYAN: Yeah, it's a little tiny, like basically cake with frosting on the outside on a lollipop stick. And I was like, "This looks amazing, right?" And so, there was a blizzard happening in Boston. And I was like, what better time to eat a 250-milligram cake pop. So, I ate the whole thing. And then the power went out and my basement flooded because I have a sump pump down there. So I had to go outside in the blizzard and try to start a generator that hadn't started in 10 years, all while I'm losing my concept of reality. And I finally got this thing going, and I screamed at the sky like Thor because I was like, if I can do this, I can do anything. So yes, I know.

AUBREY: It kind of feels like one of those like tribes have these really powerful intense initiations where you put your hand ended in a basket woven oven mitt looking glove, that has bullet ants with the fucking stingers pointing towards you. And it's the most painful thing on the planet. And you've got to hold your hand in there, or you get buried up to your neck and immobilized in clay, or you jump on a fucking bungee cord made of... I'm not recommending any of these things, nor am I recommending what I'm about to say, but as an initiatory practice, cannabis at high doses where you have to deal with yourself kind of like a vision quest of your own mind is interesting. Because this is a very squirrely and dangerous thing to do with most any other medicine, right? Like, there are very, very strong cautionary tales against doing this with ayahuasca, with doing this again with LSD, with doing this with mushrooms in particular. Any of these ones, I would say like, pretty much a terrible idea to take it to, you want to do a minimum effective dose for all of these things. And probably that's the case with cannabis. I'm just exploring out loud this idea, because cannabis doesn't seem to open you too particularly to kind of external forces or traps of the mind that are new. It's almost like it's just revealing what's already there. It's a way to face off with yourself, very much like the darkness retreat that I did. Wasn't like I was encountering, I was surfing the wild astral and I needed El Dragon Del Silva to all the way the fucking bad energy in there, was just me. Whatever was there, it was fucking me. And maybe it's always me. And sometimes, it feels like it's me plus. Let's just say that. And with cannabis, it also feels like, this is me, this is my body, this is what's going on in me. And so, just gently putting out the possibility that that could be part of like, an initiatory ritual.

RYAN: Absolutely. I mean, it definitely was for me. It might not have been planned, but it ended up being that. And it's funny that you were talking about minimum effective dosing, because that's always what I suggest with cannabis, and with other plant medicines as well. Just because at the end of the day, these things can be amazing. But they can also do a lot of harm too if you don't do them, and don't hold them in reverence, and don't respect them. And so, when I hear Terence McKenna's advice with cannabis to just slam it, which is what he suggests, I'm like that's a slippery slope. And of course, Terence was a certain type of individual that seemed to be able to handle things like that. But I feel like--

AUBREY: But also, Terence said a hero dose was 5 grams of mushrooms. And that's, I don't know, it's reasonable.

RYAN: 100%.

AUBREY: I mean, except if it's like penis envy or something like ridiculous like that, one of those really strong strains, then 5 grams is like, fucking buckle up, son. 

RYAN: Yeah, I had that happen by accident one time. 

AUBREY: The difference is enormous, like fucking enormous between the strains of mushroom. So another random caveat, like be mindful. Like one gram of penis envy is like three and a half at least of a normal strain like a golden teacher.

RYAN: 100%. I mean, I remember when I had done this, a couple of friends and I made an 18-gram tea and figured, oh, you know, we'll just split it, it'll be about six grams each, we'll be fine. And I--

AUBREY: Penis envy?

RYAN: Yeah, penis envy. And I didn't know at this point. Again, a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away. And so, when the effects came on, I remember I was laughing. And I laughed so hard that I triggered this visceral response in me that I was choking, my throat was closing up and I was going to die, all in like a nanosecond. And so, I really quickly went to the bathroom, tried to play it cool. And I was like, I'm okay. And every time, a voice would say, "No, you're not." It was just messing with me. So I tried to puke, couldn't puke. And then after about five minutes, I realized like, wait a minute, wouldn't my throat have already closed up? And the second that happened, I got the biggest cosmic giggle of like the mushroom entity or whatever laughing at me, being like, alright, we checked you before you wrecked yourself. Now you can go hang out and get some fun visuals, you know? And so, I learned from that experience.

AUBREY: Yeah, no doubt. I mean, there's lots of reasons to be super mindful and careful. And I think that's still the best advice. I'm at least curious about pushing, especially because with your cannabis I've developed such a feel, such a good relationship with the medicine. And so, kind of formed that, a different, like a more evolved relationship that I had when I was in high school. And in some ways, this goes to the three levels of consciousness, right? You start in the pre-tragic. In the pre tragic, you're in Eden, everything is cool, it was all funny. Every piece of food tasted great. I was just laughing, the music sounded better. Sex was better. Everything was better. It was like cannabis equals everything is better. Art is better. Doesn't matter, everything is better. Then I entered the tragic world where it's like, oh, wow, everything is worse. I mean, the food still tasted better. Occasionally sex felt better, but otherwise, and everything was kind of like, confusing and difficult. So that would be from the pre-tragic to the tragic. And then there's the post tragic, which is, including all of the different wisdom of all of that. But it's almost like a return back to that pre-tragic state where everything is awesome. Except you have the wisdom of making the journey. And it kind of feels like that's where I am with cannabis right now.

RYAN: Yeah, I mean, it makes perfect sense. I mean, I would say very similar for me, I went through that period where I was first getting into it, where everything was amazing. I helped my father through it, it was incredible. And then I got into the industry. And when I started getting into that, I started watching a lot of different people's habits with cannabis. At this point, I was only interacting with the ones at night. So I fell into this, like, oh, I'm using it in the right way. I'm holding in reverence. I'm using it consciously. And then it was actually through an MDMA ceremony in Las Vegas, where in the weirdest spot, which I'll mention if you want me to, but in the weirdest spot--

AUBREY: Spearmint Rhino?

RYAN: Dude, it was actually--

AUBREY: I've done some MDMA ceremonies there.

RYAN: It was actually a strip club in Las Vegas with Rachel. And we went to this big cannabis convention to find our investors to start our own place. And everyone out there was just more worried about how much money we can make them. And so we were kind of going through a mini dark night of the soul, which is when cannabis started to not turn into that tragic stage for me, but I started to feel a lot more of like, what am I going to do about this, right? This is the industry I wanted to spend the rest of my life in, what am I going to do? So we were like, what do we do on our last night here? And she was like, "Let's go to the strip club." And I was like, perfect. So we took some MDMA, we went to the strip club, and we ended up talking to the strippers. They were like, "You guys are weird," and, "What's happening here?"

AUBREY: No, they actually probably loved it. 

RYAN: Yeah, yeah, they probably loved it. And we got their life stories, it was amazing. And so, when we left there, I had this moment where I was actually able to feel a real low. Because we left too late, Rachel had a big project she was working on, and so I felt that low. And in that moment, it was bliss, because I realized, oh, my God, I haven't been feeling a lot of my feelings in a long time since my father passed. And so, on that plane ride home, I had this five-hour flight with a pounding migraine, and I was just in pure bliss. Because I was realizing like, oh, my goodness, I was only experiencing a couple of different shades of the rainbow of emotion. And a big part of that was because I was using cannabis unconsciously at that point. Because what I realized was, I was at this dispensary that was out of alignment for what my soul wanted. I would get all the motivation to change it. And then I would go home, I would interact with cannabis, I would be embraced with the comfort of the feminine. And then I would go back to work the next day and feel the same thing, that was a cyclical process. And that's where that tragic stage started for me. And then once I actually was able to go through this experience, and get back to the dispensary and stop interacting with cannabis, I only lasted a month before I was like, "I got to leave here." Then I started Highly Optimized, and the rest is history.

AUBREY: I saw one of the negative consequences of cannabis really early, actually also in high school. So, I had a buddy whose dream was to be a musician, like the Black Crowes he had, that was his band. He wanted that more than anything else. And he was big, big into cannabis. He would smoke daily. And when he would smoke, cannabis would tell him that he was going to be a rock star, right? And he practiced, he practiced, but he was shy. And so, he never actually took the steps to actually go out, form a band, be a part of a band, play the shows. That all was like far delayed from actually what steps would have been needed to take, what he actually needed, the motivation he needed to take to actually do it, there was a big delta. And so that dream never manifested. Now, I get it. It's fucking hard to be a musician. And maybe it wasn't in the cards anyways. But I could see where the cannabis kept telling him, and he'd be like, "I'm going to be playing in front of tens of thousands of people, brother." And I was like, awesome, but like, what about playing in front of 10 people now? Because I got that, I got it. If you're going to do that, you got to start, like, right now, doing this type of thing. You gotta get over your shyness. You can't just get into the magical thinking of smoking, and then feeling it there, but not actually taking the steps in real life. So that was the first time I saw something where it was like, okay, alright, this is potentially a way in which cannabis is providing relief for his impulse to try and be that rock star that he wanted to be. It was kind of diverting it into this dead end cul de sac.

RYAN: Yeah, I've seen that a lot as well, especially when I worked at the dispensary. And one of the things that I tell people is, if we understand that cannabis is feminine medicine, then I always use this analogy of the salsa dance. Where in a salsa dance, the masculine role is to give direction and to lead the dance, right? And the woman's role is to be able to express herself fully. But if the masculine role is not playing his part of the equation, and not giving her that eye, that tells her, you can express yourself, I know where you're going to fall, and I can catch you. Then essentially, the feminine is not going to be able to really be at her full speed and the masculine is not going to be at his full speed either. And so, with cannabis, what I always say is that, regardless of what gender you are, if you're entering this experience, your side of the bargain or your part of the bargain, is creating an intention from which to give the experience a direction. It's not the only aspect of it. But if you understand that elementary aspect of just being able to give it an intention, then just like your mother, right? When you were sick, she would want to know, what do you want? But if you kind of just looked at her with a blank stare, she'd be like, alright, you weirdo, I don't know what you want, so I'm going to come back later, right? But if you told her, "Hey, I need this," she'd be like, okay, cool, I can go give that to you. Now, the challenge is that if someone asks, say, for instance to be happy, and then they experience anxiety, they might be like, why am I experiencing anxiety? I wanted to be happy. So the second part is understanding it's a mirror, and it will show you what's standing in the way of you accessing what your intention that you set wants to be. And so, the third part of it is imagination medicine, where if you understand that it can help you access the imagination from moving you into the subconscious, then you're able to actually see that you can form new belief systems and these kinds of things are possible, yet they're not givens, right? You still have to do a lot of work yourself in the equation, to be able to have cannabis experience you in this way, right? And experience cannabis in that way. And so, this is why I saw there was no guidance out there. For being the most popular plant medicine, I'm like, where's all the guidance? The guidance you get at the dispensary is, you won't get cancer, smoke it all day long every day, and it's fine. That's like, literally the guidance that people are getting. And I was working with everyone from the age of 20 to the age of 80. And I was working with some elderly individuals that would come in, and they'd get advice from other dispensaries to eat 100 milligram edible. And I'm like, "Where is this advice coming from, right?" And they'd say, "Oh, well, they have a big pharmaceutical tolerance, maybe they've already been on opiates or something like that. So we're going to give them a higher dose." And I'm like, that doesn't translate whatsoever. Like, it's just there's no guidance. And so that's why we made Connect With Cannabis to bridge that gap, because I really feel that cannabis can be so much more than what it is. And I think part of it is just reimagining what cannabis is, because it can be a powerful tool for self-development and self-awareness. Yet, it's not a given. It has to be worked to be able to be achieved in that way. 

AUBREY: Yeah, it's almost like the gifts are hidden in plain sight. 

RYAN: Yeah. 

AUBREY: I mean, I think it has some of the highest unrealized upside of any medicine that's as widely used as it is. I mean, I think you take mushrooms, for example, right? Not as widespread. But more often than not, people are actually realizing the upside. Where it's like, I had a buddy, a really successful athlete. And the first time I met him, he was like, you want to know about the greatest day of my life? And I was like, probably when you want that fucking championship, right? Like, Lombardi Trophy, big deal. And he's like, "Took mushrooms on the beach, and I merged with the ocean. It's the best day of my life." I was like, fuck. And it's not that he intended to do that, but mushrooms can bring you, and also you can get in some dark places, you can have some nightmarish experiences, I'm not saying that, that's not possible as well. But more often than with cannabis, people are realizing the potential because that's like, the potential that I think psilocybin has. That type of experience where you're with your buddies, you're laughing with them, you merge with the ocean and realize that you and the water itself of the Great Mother are seamless. Okay, nailed it. Like 10 out of 10. But cannabis is like reliably giving people, six out of 10, five out of 10, seven out of 10, maybe occasionally an eight out of 10. But rarely is it getting to that 10 out of 10 experience, and that could be many different ways. It is such a multifaceted and kind of interestingly complicated plan, because you can use it for poetry, and you use it for introspection, you can use it for connection. There's a lot of different ways that you can really dive deep in it. But I feel like there's so much delta between what people are getting out of it, and what its potential is. 

RYAN: I kind of view the cannabis spirit as shy a little bit, where like, it won't just show you itself like mushrooms might. And just like you said, with mushrooms, they might show you many different varieties of experiences, right? But they're going to show you what their power is much quicker than cannabis. Cannabis, you almost need to work a little bit more with, to be able to have that type of experience with, and that's what I had, right? Where cannabis will almost give you the experience that you're asking for. And so, if you're not really aware that it can do these things, well, then it's not really going to show you that side of it. But at the same time if you start asking questions, and that's why I tell people, I don't say this is the right or wrong way to interact with cannabis. There's no duality here, it's just simply the way I do it. And if someone picks up something that they want to try out, cool. And what I've experienced in doing the program, and all of these things is that when people start going, okay, what if I live my life as if cannabis could work this way, right? And they go from that as if, to being like, okay, now I have the direct experience. Now it can be more matter of fact where I go, okay, I've had the direct experience of cannabis working this way. When you bridge that gap, a whole new world can open up. And that's been one of the coolest things for me, because new worlds are opening up every single time I sit in a ceremony with cannabis. Or even though I teach a program on it, that I've been doing this for 12 years, there's constantly new things that are even illuminating to me. And it's just an eternal mystery. That's one of my most fascinating components of cannabis that I love so much.

AUBREY: Yeah. There's an element of cannabis too that's very interesting in how it interacts with other medicines. And I've had experiences where it interacted with psilocybin in a particularly intense way. And I would not recommend it. Yes, it can deepen the experience. But it created an incredibly chaotic and intense situation. And I've seen that happen not just with me, but with other people. So, that is a pairing that I'm like, maybe at the very end of things, long after the peak, things are chilled out, like all right, all right. But be careful. Be super careful with that one.

RYAN: 100%. It's like Paul Chek says about having two wives. Until you learn how to ride one horse really well, don't try riding two, because you'll get thrown and ripped apart. And that's how I view it as well. I think that as Hamilton talks about, cannabis calls on a lot of spirits. So sometimes it can be like too many cooks in the kitchen. And especially if you already have the spirit of psilocybin within you, and then you try invoking this, and you don't know how to call on the head spirit and do these types of things. It can almost be like just in a really loud room with a bunch of conversations happening at once, right? And you're like, which one do I attach on to? And so, I've definitely gone through those experiences too. And what I found is that, like you were saying, on the tail end of psilocybin, it's fantastic. Rachel and I had done a tea, probably about six months ago, where we went through the whole experience, we meditated, we listened to sound healing frequencies, which is what we usually do when we do a larger dose. And at the end, at about three in the morning, I decided to interact with some of the Strawpicanna. I wrote, I literally channeled into my journal, like five pages, and so much got downloaded to me. But when I've tried it at the peak of the experience, it's just too many cooks in the kitchen, right? It's not necessarily challenging, but it's just like, I don't even know what I'm supposed to be paying attention to. And so I feel like I'm missing a lot of the messages that could potentially be the lessons that I'm looking to learn in that experience.

AUBREY: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Now, let me go to something where I feel like they do stack together on top of each other, and that's cannabis and ketamine. To me, that combination forms not a stack, but actually a fusion. It creates a fusion of the limitlessness of the mind, and the somatic embodiment that cannabis can provide. And it creates something else that the handshake is so complete that it just forms one new thing. And to me, that is one of the least talked about possibilities in psychedelic medicine, period. Like, I've had some of my most profound journeys of any journey I've ever been on, utilizing that combination. And in that combination, you want the peaks to match. And I'm not saying you couldn't do it another way but the magic happens when you get both peaks to match. And then this is not a walking around the fucking room type of thing. No, this is a mind fold on, good headphones, or whatever really, good speaker. Typically, John Hopkins Music is the best music for psychedelic therapy. He's also got a bunch of other great tracks. Put on some John Hopkins playlist and allow yourself to bring your body into the void, so that you can interact with the limitlessness of the mind and the quantum potentiality and the information and intelligence of your body. And to me, that is one of the most powerful things that I've experienced. And it went to just another fucking level when I tried it with your cannabis.

RYAN: You know what's really funny, man? So, I've only had one experience with something like ketamine, and it was--

AUBREY: What's something like ketamine? What am I missing? 

RYAN: So, this is what I'm so excited to share with you. So I have these buddies that run a certain biohacking company. And they have this incredible product they make that has a ketamine analog and a psilocybin analog in it, along with a couple other things too. And so I've never done straight ketamine before. But this experience allowed me to actually understand what dissociating is, and I was like, oh, my goodness, I've experienced similar things to this in other medicines. Not like this, but a same same but different type feeling. And interacting with cannabis on that, is one of the best experiences ever. There was a couple of weeks ago, where it was Rachel's birthday. So we went to the beach, and we were interacting, we were playing canjam, which is one of my favorite games, so much fun. And we interacted with one of these trokkies, and then we hit some bags. And it was just, I mean, I lost, not lost, I gained so much presence. Then nine hours flew by, and I didn't even think about my phone. I didn't even think about anything else. I was just so in the moment, like a mind of a child. And so I imagine that combination is absolutely incredible. Now that you've said it too.

AUBREY: Yeah, it's stunning. I mean, I will feel energy moving up and down through my body. Healing that happens, it's such a profound level. Even the best Reiki healing, and the best dose of mushrooms or ayahuasca, whatever, you'll feel some energy move, and it's potent. This feels like it's on autopilot, and it's just happening in such a profound way, I'm going, I can't believe this, I just cannot believe what is happening energetically in my body as well as psychologically. And it doesn't always, they don't always match them up quite right. Sometimes you can match them up a little wrong, where cannabis is a little too strong and the ketamine's not strong enough, the ketamine is a little too strong. So, you've got to try and match them up in the right way. And I think you have to be in the right headspace. There's a lot of factors. Of course, it's energetic medicine. But you can get it where it's just, you see the world in a different place. I feel like I've up-leveled my consciousness in a more significant way since discovering that pairing. And of course, I have doctor-prescribed ketamine. So, getting really like high quality and reliable amounts, and not just like ripping bumps out of a fucking spoon, or a pinkie nail. But, yeah, it's been really profound for me to explore that world. And also, it gives me a lot of hope. Because there's very, I mean, I feel like it gives access to the depth that a lot of these other medicines can be with limited downside. And also, legality, I don't know how many states are cannabis legal now?

RYAN: God, yeah, 14 to 18. Somewhere in there. I was just looking at the map this morning. 

AUBREY: It's going to be universal pretty soon. So it's almost fully legal to do this. So, it's like, this is maybe one of the first things. Of course, MDMA is going to be legal in clinical settings soon, but it's just one of those things. It's coming into the planet now at a time where the planet really needs it. And then of course, pairing the ketamine and cannabis with body work, and that's something that I've been trained to be able to provide from my teacher, Parangi, a very particular type of bodywork that works in the somatic body, and the subtle body as well. And that combination is just really phenomenal. It's really phenomenal to both receive and actually give and enter that space with people.

RYAN: Yeah, I love that man. And you're 100% right. Every different type of archetype of human being is interacting with cannabis. From policemen, to firemen, to librarians, to doctors, to elderly people to young people. I mean, there's so many different types of people interacting with this medicine, that I think the same as you. This could be the introductory thing to people exploring shifting consciousness, right? And, if we talk about astrologically, the Age of Aquarius coming through and all these things, we can see a shift happening. And so, I imagine that many people are going to start to become curious if they aren't already, regarding these medicines; cannabis, ketamine, MDMA, psilocybin, etc. And I've had fantastic experiences with all of them. But the great thing about cannabis is that unlike a lot of other medicines, you can do it in your living room if you have to. You don't need to necessarily take a trip, you don't need to necessarily have a facilitator, although I do recommend it, especially if you're new to it. But it's really like the people's plant in a lot of ways, right? Because you could, I'm not saying you should, and I don't do it. But you could drive a car, you could technically do your daily tasks on these types of things where like, how many people do you know that eat a gram of mushrooms to fold their laundry, or do the laundry? Probably not a lot. But regularly, people will be like, I'm going to interact with cannabis to be able to do laundry, to be able to do this, do that, etc. And the funny thing is that, I was in a recent cannabis experience where I was going to interact with it, and I had this laundry I wanted to fold. And so, I was like, okay, I'm going to fold the laundry first. And then I got this download. And I was like, I wonder what would happen because usually folding laundry is something I just get frustrated about. I was like, I wonder if I interacted with cannabis before I folded my laundry-- 

AUBREY: I just hang everything up because I'm so bad at it.

RYAN: I don't blame you.

AUBREY: I'll be like, whatever, like fucking workout shorts, I'm like, fuck it. 

RYAN: Just hand them. And it's funny, man. Because like, when I interacted with cannabis this time as an experiment, I was like, what will happen? Why am I getting called to do this? And what I realized was that, like, we were talking a little bit earlier, it was the story I had upon what folding my laundry meant. Originally, it was something I just had to do, because I just had to do it. And when I interacted with cannabis, I was present, and I was doing it. And I was like, wow, this is really an act of self-love. Because I know that when I wake up and all my laundry is put away, and I have an ergonomic space that's clean and feels conducive to me working in and things like that, that I love myself a little bit more. And so, I started to be like, wow, cannabis, I find to be one of the only medicines that can connect us to the most mundane tasks of our lives. 

AUBREY: Yeah, turning into the Zen, the Zen of folding laundry, the Zen of doing dishes.

RYAN: Yeah. Because it's one thing, it's great to be connected and feel amazing when you're hanging with friends, or you're having a group dinner, or you're on a medicine ceremony. But what happens in all the mundane aspects of our life; taking out trash, folding, laundry, etc. If we can connect to those components of our life, well, then we increase the ability of us to connect deeper to our lives. Because how you do anything is how you do everything. So if you learn how to connect deeper to yourself folding laundry, then guess how much better you might be at being able to connect more with other people, connect more with the work you're doing, connect more with your clients. It's fantastic. So those are like the eternal mysteries. Like I said, they're always coming up out me. And I'm just an eternal student.

AUBREY: Yeah, no, no doubt. Let's give people a troubleshooting guide. Let's say you smoke some cannabis, eat some cannabis, you start feeling that creeping anxiety, that constriction in your chest. Your head starts creeping out to all of these potential timelines where you've projected a version of yourself in the future, and that future self is suffering some terrible calamity. And the world is closing in on you. You find yourself in one of these positions, what's your advice for how to bring people back to center and start to quiet these? Because one of the challenges is, alongside those you have hormones that are actually in your body. Cortisol is being released, adrenaline, noradrenaline, all of these different things are happening. And they actually take a while to settle down, to flush out of the bloodstream again. So you're going to have to really focus on something I imagine. What's your advice?

RYAN: The breath. The first thing is the breath. Come back to your breath, and just start noticing, right? Are you up regulating? Are you breathing up into your lungs? Are you down in your diaphragm? Where are you breathing, and how are you breathing? And what I always say for most people is, do a down regulatory breathwork style, like box breathing, it's easy. You can just do a count. In for four, hold for four, breathe out for four. If you want to hold the breath out for four at the end, you can do that too. And then the second thing is a mantra that I use for any medicine when I'm having a challenge, which is, I took a medicine and the medicine is working, right? Because a lot of times I forget that like, hey, I was totally willing to experience a challenge before I got in on this. But now that I'm experiencing it, it's very similar to an ice bath, right? You're like, "Yeah, let's do an ice bath." And you get in there, and the first 10 seconds, you're like, why am I in here? Why am I even doing this, right? So, reminding yourself, like, okay, I took a medicine and the medicine is working the exact way it needs to work. Sometimes we start shooting all over ourselves, right? This shouldn't be happening, something else should be happening. And so, reminding ourselves that, hey, this is exactly what we're looking for and exactly what we asked for, even if it might not be exactly what we thought it might be. Getting ourselves to realize that we are in control of how we perceive the experience. And then the third step is just realizing that whatever you're experiencing is simply sensations that you might have a story on. Now, it's not necessarily easy to be like, "Oh, it's just a story, I'll just talk my way out of it". But these things is, you start repeating them to yourself, getting into the breath, being able to connect with that mantra. And then being able to tell yourself like, okay, this anxiety I might be feeling or this paranoia, what is this sensation? Let's leave the story behind of what I know anxiety to be or what I know paranoia to be. And let me connect with these feelings. Because when you can actually connect with the feeling and go, okay, I want to look at you objectively, right? I want to leave the story behind and just tune into this uncomfortable feeling I'm feeling, a lot of times it will dissipate. Because emotions only last so long, right? And it might take a while, right? It might not be five minutes, it might be the full experience. But eventually you will feel it subside. At least in my experience, and with the clients I've worked on. And so, that three-step process really helps me a lot. Connecting to the breath, repeating either that mantra or one that's kind of the same type of idea. And then being able to tune into the sensations in your body without necessarily the story that you might have around, oh, my god, the last time I interacted with cannabis and this happened, what happened? Or it was the worst experience of my life. Like in your case with the edible, right? Like, if you had a similar experience, trying to disconnect yourself from the memory of that past experience and going, this is a new experience, I'm going to treat it as such. That's really helped me.

AUBREY: One other technique that I've found to be helpful in certain situations is sometimes getting into the body. Because sometimes energy is just building and it needs to be expressed in some way. So if you can, actually, and it's sometimes the last thing you want to do. But if you can dance, put on some music and get yourself, and the first little bit is usually going to be tough. So, I'll actually try to do some more like acrobatic, calisthenically focused dancing, where it's like squat dancing, where I'm like, really, actually. Because I've never been in an uncomfortable psychedelic experience where I broke a sweat, and it was still uncomfortable, right? So, once you're in your body and moving it that way, typically, that will break whatever different kind of spell you're in at that point. So, it's just another technique that I think can be effective to apply. It definitely takes some work. But the moment that you start to break a sweat, typically the experience is going to be like, okay, all right, I'm good here.

RYAN: And it's funny you say that, because where attention goes, energy flows, right? So, if you start focusing on something else, where your attention is dramatically going to leave what you're focusing on at that point, and start entering the new place. And you mentioned athletics and things like that. I was at a shindig one time with Leo Savage, and he was sprinting, just absolutely sprinting. And I asked him about it, and he was like, "Yeah, that's what I do when I start feeling things come on that might be a little challenging, is I just start sprinting." And so, here he is running around the house at full speed. It was a pretty funny sight to be seen.

AUBREY: I'm surprised he doesn't grab his mace.

RYAN: I know, I think he got the mace after.

AUBREY: Yeah, Leo Savage is a steel mace wizard who works out of Onnit. 

RYAN: He's amazing. 

AUBREY: Yeah, and that's really good, if you're at a festival or something like that, like that's really good, before you check into the Zendo tent, try to at least like first break a sweat. Get in there, get a sweat going. And that'll really help.

RYAN: Yeah, it's funny you mentioned festivals. Because one of my most challenging experiences of cannabis that I don't think I've ever told before, was at Electric Forest, where we got there and I had all this neck tension. It was right after my father passed away. And just really soon after he passed away, I woke up one day, and I just had this insane amount of neck tension. And for some reason, I was putting all of my focus around this neck tension. And so, for 16 hours for the drive there, I was looking up individual muscles in my neck and trying to figure out which ones were tight. Yeah, zero to 10 would not recommend doing that. Because by the time I got there, I was so upregulated. And then I decided, we were walking on the campground, I was like, "Oh, let me smoke a joint." And immediately I started feeling something strange happening, where it seemed like dissociating a little bit where I was walking around, but I just didn't feel like I was fully me. I didn't feel like I was fully centered inside of me. And so, I continued smoking this joint, and we get back to our camp. We sat inside of our gazebo, and I started feeling short of breath. And so, I look at one of my friends. And I was like, "Man, I feel like I'm going to die." And he was like, "Yeah, me too." And then just goes back to talking, right? Because again, it's like, I just said it. He didn't know anything that was going on. So I'm like, that was my one shot, right? So I'm sitting there, and every breath I take is only--

AUBREY: He's like, memento mori. 

RYAN: Yeah, exactly, exactly. It's like yeah, man, props. I'm just like, dude, no, I'm really serious, but like, I had--

AUBREY: "Marcus Aurelius, bro."

RYAN: Exactly. And so, like, those were the last words I could utter. And so basically, I went into a full blown panic attack. And so, I kind of stumbled into my tent. And just, it took me a little while to get my breath. But what cannabis showed me in that was like, hey, this is the opportunity for you to be more self-aware before you dive in with me, right? Just because you might be used to me. And at that point I was interacting with it daily, doesn't mean that I can't potentially show you something within you that might scare you, right? That might not be the thing you want to experience in a group of people at a music festival. So, I think that the music festival thing is a big thing that I love talking about because no judgement, but I see some very interesting life decisions being made at music festivals, you know? 

AUBREY: Sure, sure. And also, like what you will feel like, I'm not really feeling that much. But when you got fucking waves of bass hitting you and lights flashing, you don't know what the fuck you're feeling. So much stimulus, that then when you go move on, or if it's Burning Man, you're on your bike and you're in the middle of the dark playa, and you're like, "Oh, shit." The good thing about Burning Man is you're on a bike though. So, that actual kinetic movement of your legs actually helps you, because then that can get your sweat going, that can get your muscles pumping, which typically helps.

Another less intense, because I feel that too. If I have tension somewhere, I mean, I will just make love to a lacrosse ball on my back for like hours. And I'll be like, feel like the most productive thing I've ever done in my life. 

RYAN: My number one travel tool.

AUBREY: Yeah, for sure. So, that's definitely there. And the other thing I've noticed is, if I haven't brushed my teeth, I'll get so aware, like, goddamn, my teeth are fucking filthy. Jesus, does anybody have a toothbrush? I'm willing to borrow anybody's toothbrush.

RYAN: "Please, I won't ask questions."

AUBREY: Yeah, so it highlights a lot of things that are there that we don't notice. Some mild irritant will then become a very large irritant.

RYAN: Yeah, it's really fascinating. And I think this is once again, the opportunity for people to understand more about these medicines. Because the set and setting is huge, right? It's this thing that a lot of people know, they can say, yes, set and setting is important. But until you've realized it, because knowing and realizing I think are two totally different things. Where knowing is a summation of what information and education you have around something. Realization is when you actually have the direct experience yourself. And I think in today's world, there's a lot of knowledge, but not enough applied knowledge and therefore direct experience. And so, when you actually have the direct experience, like we were talking about set and setting, actually like, oh, this is why that matters. I think that really helps a lot. And being able to give people that direct experience in their own household at first, where they can experience different sides of cannabis or other plant medicines as well, then they have more information moving forward when they go to a music festival to be able to use the sermon in saying, I don't think right now is the right time. And I think that that's for so many people what they don't think. They're like, oh, all of my friends are having a great time, I trust these people. I don't think they're peer pressuring them in most cases, like peer pressure was said in the DARE program and things like that. But, they're like, oh, all my friends are having a good time, why wouldn't I have a good time? But they might like me in that situation, and not really checked in and going, I'm really up regulated right now, and I'm really focused on some challenges within my physical body, and I'm making those things into a story that it's really bad. And so, if I interact with, say, cannabis right now, this could be an ordeal instead of an experience, right? It's a translation that we don't want to necessarily have to have, but if we do have an ordeal instead of an experience, we want to have the right set and setting in which to contain that. 

AUBREY: Yeah. One of the other challenges too is the measurement of dose. So, people who are very cannabis familiar, they'll have a joint or a blend. They'll just fucking smoke that thing. And they'll watch me and they look really cool when they do it, and I look like a robot. Like I pull it into my mouth like I would a cigar. So I know it's just one mouthful of smoke. And then I'll let it cool down a little bit in my mouth before I actually inhale, and then I'll breathe in a full inhale of all that cool air. So I'm not roasting my lungs and coughing a bunch. But I'll do it in this very kind of mechanistic way, and definitely all of the cannabis familiar people will be like, "What a dork." I'm like, I get it, I get it. I'm not the cool guy blowing this out of my nose, blowing it half out, sucking it back in. No, I'm not Gandalf the weed smoker here. Sorry, everybody. But I'll just be very measured with it. And I think that was, I don't know if people still do this. It seems like it's gone out of favor. But back in college and stuff, bongs were big. You just have this whole tube of smoke and you suck the whole thing down and clear it, and it's like, fucking terrible idea. How much is that? What do you know?

RYAN: It's brutal. And also at the same time, I've never seen people hit the floor quicker than when they're hitting bongs, right? Especially gravity bongs. Remember people making those things in bathtubs back in the day with like a two-liter bottle or whatever, where they're essentially like sucking it down and then taking this gigantic hit. And at the end of the day, that's also stressing your lungs, it's stressing your throat. And cannabis will have a sympathetic response.

AUBREY: Ryan's laughing, he must have done this.

RYAN: Yeah, guilty as charged.  

AUBREY: He's laughing because he must have done this before. 

RYAN: Guilty as charged. I tried it so other people don't have to. And it's like, so many people do this. The same thing with concentrates too. I was in Las Vegas. I was very used to interacting with concentrates at that point in my life because I was in the industry, and I was interacting with hash all the time. But I went to this dab bar. And for some reason, I don't know what I was doing. But I decided to pick two sativa dabs, right? So, I did these dabs, and I literally didn't feel like I had legs anymore. And so, I didn't know at any point. I'm standing around all these people, I'm like, "Am I just going to hit the floor?" Because I knew I wasn't so high that I thought I was going to hit the floor because I was out of control. But I could not feel my legs. And so I was like, "How do I know if my knees are going to buckle?" And so those kinds of things are just that now I only use the volcano. Because for me, I'm not looking once again now to get as high as possible. I'm looking to get just beyond the threshold of normal consciousness. So I can start to see what's just out of the way of me that then I can pick up the message for. Because when you integrate, which I really think is not an optional thing. If you want to interact with these substances as a medicine, which there's no judgment, you can use them however you want. But if you want them to be able to act as a teacher of medicine, then you need to integrate. That's where the real work is. And so now, because I've been able to integrate, and actually take the action, like you were saying with your buddy, who was the musician, it's not just about praying, right? It's about praying and moving your feet as Paul says. And so, being able to do both of those were now I come out of the experience, and I go, okay, the next week, I'm going to be sober, and I'm going to integrate this because that's how I interact with cannabis. I only use it on weekends. And that's specifically because what I found is that with my pattern I've run in the past with unconscious use, that's just what works for me. And so, for people listening, I don't know if there's a right and wrong way to interact with cannabis or right or wrong amount. This is just my personal way of doing it. And it's also the way that Hamilton Souther and other shamans that work with this medicine, speak about interacting with it. They do that to preserve the transcendental and spiritual properties of it, which is now my main intention with it. So that's why I'm only interacting with it twice per week. But now that I've been able to integrate and actually take the lessons and messages that cannabis is showing me, and actually apply them to my life, I don't need as much cannabis because my life is becoming a psychedelic experience. I'm not literally tripping and fractals are coming up. But I'm experiencing the magic within these experiences. And I imagine you've had the same thing, right? That's the real beauty of what these medicines do is show you what's already possible in your life. And that's, I think, why so many people will get dependent on cannabis specifically, because there's no guidance, but also they're living in discomfort of some sort, or they're curious. They experience this new experience, they go, that feels better than my normal experience. Well, what do I do to feel that all the time? I must eat more of it. And they miss the step of no, the real message of this plan, like Terence McKenna said, is to get the message in and hang up the phone for a little while, and assimilate that and integrate it. So then your life can start resembling the magic of these experiences.

AUBREY: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I remember, for a while, I had a buddy who was just again, one of those like, could not possibly have enough cannabis. So he went from smoking joints to then smoking dabs to whatever, glass and shatter and hash and all of this. He was so irresponsible with it, and he would be doing it. And whether he was encouraging it or other people were just seeing what he was doing, they would try to do what he did. And he could literally kill an entire afterparty, where all of the sudden, everybody was dancing and having a good time, and we're just all having a blast. And then people are fucking dropping like flies. And I'm like, "Bro, stop. Just fucking stop. We were having so much fun before you came in here with your fucking super glass concentrate shatter hash, like fucking stop. No.” And eventually, just like, stopped inviting him. No, done, you're done. You're not invited.

RYAN: It's such a thing, man. I experienced a lot of the same things where at parties, people are looking to smoke joints right off the bat. And I'm like, guys, again, no judgment. Just a curious observation. Like, what is your intention for this party? Do you want to be on the couch the whole time? It's one thing if you're going to interact with nitrous or something, you're going to be on a couch, but cannabis is just going to put you on the couch because it's very relaxing in most cases, right? 

AUBREY: Yeah. Well, nitrous also is going to be about meh, two minutes, and then you're going to fucking pop out. Like, whoa, that was wild. It's not saying to endorse nitrous for whatever reason. But it's limited. It's not a party-ender.

RYAN: Yeah, cannabis is an end game. That's what I always say, it is an end game. It's powerful, man. And I think a lot of people because they use it so frequently, this is again, the set and setting thing. This happened to me where I was interacting with it daily, I was like, oh, I know, this plant, right? I know it. But I didn't know anything at that point. Because I didn't really know myself. And as within, so without, right? The hermetic principles, and law of correspondence. If I don't really know who I am, then how much am I going to be able to understand who anyone is, or any plant is, or anything? And I think that's where a lot of people get in trouble. The thing with the hash too, is, it's so funny. There's no difference between how you interact with cannabis and alcohol, tobacco, etc. Like, I think a lot of people, especially in the industry, glorify like, oh, I'm smoking all day and doing all these things. I'm like, guys, you're numbing something out, in most cases. Unless you're extremely experienced, and I have met some individuals that have an extremely positive relationship with cannabis and use it frequently. But in most cases, these people are numbing things out. And I know that from working with over 5000 of them, that when I get a little bit under the surface, and I'm like, "How are you doing?" They're like, "Good." And I'm like, "How are you really doing?" They're like, "Shitty." And I'm like, okay, so what's really going on here? And I think that's another big distinction that I really want to bring to the surface with cannabis is that listen, just because you might not get physically addicted to it, there are opportunities for you to become dependent on this medicine. And it's because if you're living in discomfort, and then you're interacting with a feminine medicine that can provide feelings of comfort, and you continue externalizing your power on to that, it's the same thing as being addicted to your mother, right? And being afraid to leave the nest or any of these things, or coming home after a long day and having drinks to forget about your day. It's really the energy behind how you're doing it that makes it the relationship it is.

AUBREY: Yeah, absolutely. So, how do you do it? How do you cultivate cannabis at the level that you're cultivating it? Because it seems magic what you're doing. Somehow your relationship with the spirit of cannabis, that translates down to everything from the soil to the cultivation, has to be significantly different than other ways in which people are doing it. So, what is the differentiation for what you do versus what is standard? 

RYAN: Yeah, I loved exploring this question, because it's really, I can break it down into quantifiable and qualitative measures. And so, with the more quantifiable side, what I'm doing is I'm mixing my own soils. So, I'm getting everything, Organic Omar I listed, and I'm working with different amendments that are creating a specific base soil mix, and then adding certain things into it to create a really healthy microbial community. And then from there, what I'm doing is I'm applying mulch layers and things that really mimic the forest floor. And this is like regenerative agriculture, no-till gardening. These are terms that I use a lot. And the other thing I'm adding in is Korean natural farming, which you haven't dived into this yet. It's fascinating. It's essentially taking nature and making ferments out of it. And the cornerstone of it is something called IMO, which stands for indigenous microorganisms. And the analogy I use for this is it's really synonymous with stem cells, but with nature. So with stem cells, they're taking them out of your hip, they're applying them to different areas of your body. With the IMO, when you look into microbial supplements that you can buy for plants, because you can buy Max microbe, mammoth pee, all of these things that can inoculate your soil with more microbes. But the challenge is that those microbes are cultivated at a certain altitude in a certain place. And so, if say, if you're in Boston, and you're getting microbes that were cultivated in California, well, a lot of them are going to die off. And so a lot of times, it's just a waste of money and it's ineffective. When you're doing IMO, you're actually taking a small wooden box, you're putting al dente rice into it, you're putting a screen over the top, you're putting it into nature at some place, usually like a fallen tree where there's a lot of fungal activity. And you can see this because when you dig down just a little bit in the soil, you should be able to start finding these little white hyphae, which are like little strands of fungus. And so, when you see that you're nestling the box into there, and you're leaving it there for usually a week or two depending on the time of year. And usually you put a couple of different ones out. And when you go back hopefully, that hyphae has colonized that rice. And so you'll have this white substance on there, this really mycelium. And so, what you're doing from there is then through a process of five steps you're taking, that's IMO one, you're turning into IMO two where you combine them with brown sugar. And then you're going through this process where you're combining it with compost and soil, and actually grain first, then compost, then soil. And so when you do that, you're breeding these microbes that are indigenous to your area. And then you take that and you apply it to your garden. And so what you're doing is you're taking the stem cells that you just cultivated, applying it to your garden, and everything gets boosted because these microbes are what actually break down nutrients in the soil, and turn them from insoluble into soluble nutrients. So, the cool thing about organic growing is composed with chemical salt growing, is that with chemical salts, essentially the belief system there is that we can figure out nature, right? It's not that hard, we can figure it out. 

AUBREY: Good luck. 

RYAN: Yeah, exactly. Good luck. And what we know about cannabis and other plants is that their root systems, they're asking for different nutrients at like, microsecond different levels, where they might want calcium and then magnesium within a fraction of a second. And it's really cool how the roots work, because they're putting out this exudate which is like this sugary substance. And essentially, the microbes are coming to them and being like, we want some of your exudate and they're like, well, go get us calcium or magnesium or nitrogen or whatever. And so, it's kind of this flirting game that they're doing. But at the end of the day, if you're saying like, oh, with cannabis, like yeah, if you're in vegetative state, you're just going to apply a nitrogen fertilizer, and then a flower, you're going to do potassium and phosphorus, right? Well, that's part of the equation, right? You can add micronutrients, but how do you know what that plant might have wanted that it's missing out on? So when you give it an organic setup, you're giving it a buffet, and you're allowing it to just pick what it wants. And so, it allows the plant to be much more conducive to being able to be like, "Okay, I have what I need." And what I imagine is that there's safety there with the plant because plants are sentient, right? Like they have what they need, they're going to be able to express themselves more, like the salsa dance analogy once again. And then the final step that I'm throwing in there is biogeometry. And I don't know of any other cannabis grower that's doing this. I know of one hemp farmer in Sweden. I learned it through biogeometry when I took the foundations course. Of course they didn't know what I did with cannabis and everything, but they mentioned, "Oh, yeah. There's this hemp farmer in Sweden." And I'm like perking up and like, what are they about to talk about? And they're like, yeah, he's taking this certain shape, putting around the stalks, and his yields are tripling. And I'm like, can you repeat that, right? And so immediately, I was like, "I'm going to try that out." And so I applied these different biogeometry techniques to my room. And what I realized was not only did my yield increase, but the quality was unbelievable. And it felt as though when I put biogeometry in my house, just in general, it felt like I could take a sigh of relief. And so, I'm imagining that the plants can do so as well. Because just like humans with our biofield, we have interference with EMFs and all of these things, and especially with grow lights, and all this stuff. There's just a lot of interference that we might not be able to hear. But it doesn't mean it's not there. And so, with plants, they feel the same way. And so, what I felt from the energy of my room when I went in there is that they were able to take that sigh of relief too and go, okay, we're just going to do what we're meant to do. They actually want you to do less, right? They know what they need to do. But the more that we have to be involved in the process, in my experience, the more that we're really just doing ourselves a disservice and the plant a disservice. Because the plant in nature is going to be smarter at doing what it needs to do than we are. And I think that's one of the common misbeliefs that I see a lot in the industry. Not to mention that there's this whole other qualitative side, where I've done a lot of work on myself with medicines, and also with self-development as well, where now, my energy has changed as well. And I think that's a huge part of the equation and why I'm so pumped up to make the next course we're making grow with cannabis. Because it's not just about how to grow cannabis, it's growing with cannabis. Because I really feel this plant can help us grow. But again, it's not just up to the plants. It's not a given, and it's not the plant's responsibility to do the work for us. And so, a big part of the program is how do you ensure that your energy is in the proper state before you walk into your cultivation facility, or your cultivation room, or your grow tent, etc. Because I know from working in the industry, most of these growers are showing up either still drunk from the night before, not making enough money, working for a company that's soulless in nature, that only cares about how cheap they can grow it and how much money they can make. And so, that energy really comes off. And Hamilton talks about this too, where when you're interacting with any plant medicine, but especially cannabis, you are interacting with a level of consciousness of the grower who cultivated that medicine. And so, that's another huge component as to why people experience anxiety, paranoia, etc. Because it could be just left over from what that person was feeling when they cultivated the medicine. And so, there's this whole other realm that's harder to measure. So, that's why we started with the more quantifiable and scientific way because I know science is a big thing these days. But there is this whole other side that really is just science that's yet to be discovered. It was what I truly believed, but it is worth talking about. Because it's one of the things that it's really hard to control right now. Even though cannabis is legal in most places, or at least medical or decriminalized, you really can't understand or figure out how to get the right medicine with the right energy, unless you're cultivating yourself. And the Yaqui Indians that Don Juan talks about, they understood this. When you read Don Juan's books, they're like, you have to grow it yourself, right? And they weren't necessarily working with cannabis. But when I read that, it really resonated with me because I was like, this is what I've experienced, and I hadn't heard it anywhere else until then. Now I've heard it in a bunch of different places. But being able to cultivate your own medicine, I think is the best way to be able to have a constructive co-creative relationship with this plant. Because it takes love, it takes compassion, it takes patience, it takes a lot of the highest states of awareness that a human being seeks to enter to be able to interact with cannabis and cultivate it in such a way. And you're going to be able to notice that final product if your energy was off. And so, I love talking about that side of it as well.

AUBREY: Yeah, I think it can't be overstated how hubristic it is, how cocky it is, when humans think that we can understand nature. And that could be soil, that could be a plant, that could be an ecosystem, that could be the human body. And then even more so, people think they can understand how to manage all of those different things through their own top-down control mechanisms. And I think it's like, get the fuck out of here, you're not God, you're not. Because God is every different perspective. And that's what all of these things are. Every perspective of the plant kingdom, the mineral kingdom, the animal kingdom, the human kingdom, all of these different things interacting. What's needed is just kind of a bow of reverence, like deep respect. I can understand a little bit, but I trust you. I trust you that you're far more intelligent than I can ever be because you're comprised of so many more perspectives than I have.

RYAN: Absolutely. One of the mantras I say when I'm interacting with any plant medicine is show me, help me, teach me. Because what I recognize is that I wouldn't be interacting with this plant, if I wasn't curious about something, if I wasn't searching for something. And so to the degree that I can empty myself before entering my room, or before interacting with cannabis or any other medicine, is the degree to which I'm able to actually receive messages from the plant. But I always say that, when I'm looking to interact with cannabis around some people, or I'm facilitating a session for some people, and they mention they're a little nervous. I'm like, that's a good thing, right? Like, you want to have a healthy amount of, I wouldn't say fear, but like nervousness around these medicines. The people that really scare me, the people that are like, "Dude, I'm fine, just give me it." I'm like, that's the person that I don't want to have to play catch up with if they have a really challenging experience. And so, that's one of the things that I think with nature, and all of these things are realizing, humbling ourselves and realizing that we're never going to really understand those things. But we can respect them, and then ask them to be like, hey, we know we're never going to be in your world, but can you show us a little bit of it? That's where I've gotten some really cool lessons from. 

AUBREY: Yeah, for sure. So people listening, obviously, there's a lot of people who are going to want to try and experience your medicine. And the way that the laws are, very few people are actually going to be able to do it. So tell us, if that is possible, how that could be possible. And then also the resources, you mentioned a lot of different resources you're working on. Where can people find all that?

RYAN: So right now, there's no way for me to get my medicine into people's hands. If you happen to be around me at a Chek workshop, or when I'm coming out, I'd be more than happy to interact with you and give you some experiences. But what I really seek to do is to teach people through the two courses I have, both how to connect with the medicine and connect with themselves deeper through Connect with Cannabis. That's the first course. And then how to cultivate their own medicine. Because being able to say, put the seed in your mouth before you plant it and inoculate it with your own microbiome, I mean, it leads to this amazing experience, this co-creative relationship that I feel is so powerful. And so, for anyone looking to get into either one of those courses, you can find me on Instagram at @TheRealRyanSprague. Or on the business account at highly.optimized where we're giving out constant free tips, things like that. We also have a free Facebook group where you can hop in. We do plenty of webinars, we do fun stuff in there. You can hop in. We do a lot of really off-the-cuff question and answer type things. And so those are the best places to get in touch with me. But what I would say is that for anyone who is currently interacting with cannabis, and maybe you don't know where your stuff was grown, and you don't know who grew it, but you have it and you're really interested in trying this out, one of the things that I always suggest is that very similar to how if a dog has been in a really challenged environment, that dog might be kind of standoffish to you, even if you're a really nice person. But after a while, if that dog learns to trust you, it'll be able to warm up to you, even if it had a really challenging upbringing. And so with cannabis, you might not know how it was grown, you might not know who grew it. But if you can really hold that medicine and speak to it, and say, hey, I promise to hold you in reverence, and I promise to show you my love, right, in this experience, I've found that to be a really good way to not fully remediate, but at least take a big step forward. And being able to remediate what that medicine might have in it, whose energy they might have in it, how it was grown, under what lights, etc. And so that would be a great place to start with if someone's like, I really want to experience this with that kind of medicine, you can be able to speak to this medicine in my experience, and shift a little bit of that energy just by showing it like, I know your true power, and I promise to not just use you. I promise to connect with you instead. Because that language switch is big in my experience. 

AUBREY: Yeah, yep. And I just want to mention that for people in states that it's available, a good source for ketamine, if you're interested in exploring this, and again, this is not a recommendation. Go through the intake, speak to the medical professionals that they have there. But Wonder Sciences, Wonder Med is the company that I work with to get really good ketamine lozenges, that you can experience this, and treat this like your church, like real sacrament. And that's where you're going to get the real value out of it.

RYAN: I met a guy recently who, what he does is, every Sunday, he'll sit with cannabis, and just ask it, show me what I'm ready to see right now. And he'll just have a whiteboard, and he'll write things out. And he's like, that is my church every Sunday. So it's funny you mentioned that. 

AUBREY: Yeah, for sure. Well, this is a real pleasure, brother. 

RYAN: Absolutely, man. Thank you for having me on. 

AUBREY: Absolutely. Absolutely. So much love for everybody tuning in. Again, hopefully, this information was helpful. And it is not a recommendation or a carte blanche. Obviously, hopefully, we put enough caveats in here. And I always want to emphasize that, but it can be a really powerful tool when used in the right way. So, thanks for sharing the right energy, and the right information about this incredibly powerful teacher. 

RYAN: Thank you. 

AUBREY: Absolutely. Much love everybody. Peace.