I sit down with Jason Havey to discuss 23 crucial tenets of entrepreneurship, told through the story of Onnit. From humble beginnings in an attic, to a news breaking acquisition-- and every step along the way that helped shape it into the disruptive global entity that it is today. This podcast is powerful not only for business owners or entrepreneurs, but applicable to everyone who is in a leadership role, even within your own family.

AUBREY: Jason Havey, my man. 

JASON: Hey, how are you? 

AUBREY: I'm doing fucking great.

JASON: Me too, man. I really am. 

AUBREY: Right? 

JASON: Yeah, I'm feeling good.

AUBREY: Yeah, this has been a hell of a journey. And, we're at a really interesting inflection point to talk about the journey, because we are right now on the precipice of selling this company. I guess, I didn't always have this in mind. I didn't build Onnit to sell. And if I did build Onnit to sell, I did a shit job. Because, I never thought about it once. I really focused from the beginning on making this something that was going to serve my needs, something that people could feel, something that would put the right energy out in the world. And, honestly, I never knew if this was going to be me riding this thing for life, and I was going to be CEO for life. So much is unknown when you embark on this journey. And I think there was a purity to that, which I really appreciate, and a lot of mistakes that were made if I was targeting this as an endpoint. But ultimately, it all worked out.

JASON: Yeah. And when you think about it, selling the company, doesn't mean leaving the company necessarily, and still being attached to the company, and still living through the company. Because all those things are still going to exist. But starting the company for the right reasons, you're trying to start a company around what was important to you, and what you enjoyed. And, not having that end in mind sometimes works better, because it kept you from making a lot of decisions early on that I think would have been purely outcome and financial based. Whereas you did it specifically to fill a group of needs that you had for yourself or wants that you had for yourself. And, that was the thing that really caught the company fire early on, is people were connecting with it in an unusual way. I doubt it would have been that way if you just did it for a future sale.

AUBREY: That's the thing about talking to people about being a serial entrepreneur. Everybody's like, oh, yeah, serial entrepreneur, it's this formula. You build something, you sell it, you go on to the next thing, build it and sell it. And, as that formulaic approach, there's lacking some purity in what you're really trying to do. And I think that's the difference between, in my mind like a conscious entrepreneur. Someone who's really consciously trying to put something of value out into the world, versus someone who just understands the game of entrepreneurship. I am Kasparov of entrepreneurship, and I know how to move these levers. I didn't know how to move the fucking levers, but we figured them out along the way, as they fit in with higher organizing principles, which always came first.

JASON: Yeah, I kind of cringe at the term serial entrepreneur, but there's a place for it, right? Somebody that's really good at seeing gaps in markets, able to fill them, give the consumer what they want, move on to the next thing, that's still an honorable thing to do. But at the same time, it's hard to really say, my heart, my soul was put into this and have people feel it. And so, you can create a business that fills a gap, fills a consumer need and is genuinely good. But this business was different. The reason I was attracted to this business is because it genuinely had a soul. I could tell that it really meant something. And to be honest, and I think this is another one of those decisions that you might have made differently if you were planning on selling. You were talking very openly unlike any CEO I had ever heard, really authentically about everything from your personal life, your personal mistakes, what you were interested in, without any consideration of how does this affect the business, right? Because it was connected in that way.

AUBREY: It's funny because people will think, oh yeah, he was just tricking people by talking about polyamory, which is getting people riled up, and tricking people by talking about psychedelic. No, it's the opposite. These are areas that are actually, they actually kind of can separate your market, people who aren't into that, people who are like, no, no, these are drugs, people like, what are you doing? This is an unwholesome lifestyle that you're leading, and all of these judgments. But that wasn't... The point wasn't to put everything I needed to do, everything I was putting out for the single goal of this eventual sale. And, I actually had counsel the other way. People who had that pure entrepreneurial thing, lije, this is bad for the brand, you shouldn't do this. I was like, that's not the brand that I know. Because the brand that I know, Onnit, we stand for authenticity, we stand for being real. And if I'm not real, then I'm actually not in the flow of the brand. I'm actually going against the flow of the brand. So, people need to hear about all the real shit.

JASON: Yeah, that's one fascinating thing about Onnit is, you can make a business about gluten-free pasta or something, and everybody's just like, that's the gluten-free pasta business. But when people were talking about Onnit early on, and it doesn't happen as much anymore, but it was divisive in some ways, where people, there was this narrative that there was this Onnit cult. If you remember, that was a thing for a while, this Onnit cult that was out there, because some people just didn't understand what was the traction that some people had to this business, and the way that a lot of people felt about it. But, the people that did get it, realized that it was just a connection to something that was actually individual in each one of us, and it was a piece of this. But externally, there was a couple stories that came out that talked about the Onnit cult, when they really were missing the point of the Onnit culture.

AUBREY: Yeah, that's a really good point. And, I think whenever you tap into something that's deeper than simply a product, you're tapping into someone's emotions. And, actually, potentially even tapping into their spiritual actualization. Understanding a spiritual being goes all the way down to the somatic cellular body, something that as I go deeper in my practice, I'm learning more and more about. This idea of spirit up here in the sky, and then the body, the lowly body down here. That's all nonsense. It's all within the body. There's as much divinity in our cells, in our skin, in our livers, in our organs, in our intestines, as there is out in some sky kingdom of the ethereal astral plane. It's all there. It's all here. 

So, even though we don't talk about that, and we never did talk about that as part of Onnit, I talked about it really openly. When people feel that, when they feel that there's something more there, their passion for it changes. And as we go through our 23 tenets that we made up, we'll definitely talk about this more. But that passion was something that people were like, why are people so passionate about this? This is a fucking supplement company, they must be doing something squirrely. And it's not squirrely, it's the opposite of squirrely. It's we're doing something that's meaningful, like meaning. What do all religions ultimately come from? They come from giving a sense of meaning. 

Jamie Wheel talks about in his new book, Meaning 1.0 was religious belief. This gave you meaning in life. And, this is not a religion by any means. But there's something about it that gives people meaning. This idea, I'm going to be a little bit better tomorrow than I am today. And, these are the tools and these are the ways that I can think about it. These are the actions I can take. And, these are the inputs I can put in my body that will help me get there.

JASON: When you say that, the other thing that just dawned on me is, the other piece of why I think people didn't get it before but do now, is because you were an early adapter to a lot of things. No one knew what a nootropic was. When they heard Brain Pill, this was still like 2010, 2011. We were just coming off getting 50 spam emails a day about making your penis two inches larger. And so, all of a sudden, this guy's coming out and saying he's going to make your brain bigger. People just didn't get what we were doing here.

AUBREY: You know, a funny story, just to break that. The funniest story about those dick pills that were supposed to make your penis bigger was that the same erectile tissue that's in your penis is also in your nipples. So, if you take something non-locally, internally that makes your dick grow, it's also going to make your nipples grow. There's no way that the body could separate those two things from a pill. So if that worked, people would be having these long dangling nipples just going out. It be like, you're like, "Bro."

JASON: "I know what you're up to. You guys, stop going to the gas station." Oh my God, that's funny. But it wasn't just at, right? You were an early adapter to ayahuasca. I was too and you were the first person I heard talking about it. And that was one of the reasons that I was initially connected to you. The list goes on and on. But kettlebells, maces, clubs, switching from working out just to look better and switching into working out to feel better as well, that was even a new concept then. It was all about that beachbody, no pun intended. And, so, when you put that all together as total human optimization, and even was talking about the psychedelics outside of Onnit, I think people were either confused, or all about it. Because you even talking spiritually, people felt like science and spirituality were mutually exclusive. And they really aren't. And ultimately, they're probably going to come to the same point.

AUBREY: Yeah, it's almost like you can track that convergence. Whereas the way that we measure things and our capability of understanding and how things work, it's cool to watch where that goes. Yeah, and granted, everybody relaxed. There's still a gap there. Not everything can be measured, not everything can be looked at in a clinical trial, yeah, this is concerned spirituality. But, there is that kind of feeling like as our tools get better, and as our ability to understand things get better, it works on all levels. Just like I was saying, spirit moves all the way through the body, and there's understanding about how the fascia can store memory of trauma, and the book, "The Body Keeps The Score" and these things are starting to become really widely accepted. And as we start to realize this, how everything is kind of weaving together, this physical, corporeal existence and this spiritual existence, there's going to be the ways that we're able to track them all the way through. And I'm just excited to see where that goes. Doesn't mean that we have to wait for it. And you can if you want, and if that's the way you want to wait for it, by all means. But it is cool to see where that appears to be going.

JASON: Where do you think... Did you always have the confidence in your intuition? Because I think that's one thing that's tough for people is reading their own red and yellow flags in their head during their own Choose Your Own Adventure book we call life. And, some people are really good at trusting their intuition. And yours is proven to, I'm not kissing your ass at this point, because we're talking about selling your business, but really, I mean, your intuition has guided you the right direction. Have you always felt more drawn to intuition though than what is widely held as a belief at the time?

AUBREY: I've also made a lot more mistakes than people remember. I founded two companies simultaneously. I founded Onnit, and I founded a men's nail polish company with Roger Huerta at the same time. Because I saw the trend, I saw Chuck Liddell painting his nails and Roger was painting his nails, Chris Lebn painting his nails. I was like, "Shit, this is a thing. This is going to take off. This is cool." And I was deep in the fight community because of my friendships. So, that didn't work, ultimately. I was stoked about it. I thought, this is cool, we're going against cultural norms, we're allowing people to be more expressive, and it's changing the understanding of masculinity in a way that we don't have to show that we're tough all the time. We can paint our nails pink, and that's actually even tougher in a way. There's all these things that I thought was really cool about that. But it was a shit business idea. And I proved that.

But the other time, I also had this idea about Onnit, which talking about it with Bode Miller, who trained as hard as anybody I've ever seen, and I've seen people train, and I still have yet to see someone push themselves to the degree that Bode pushed themselves in the workouts that I've been in. And I've been in workouts with all kinds of MMA champions, NFL champions, NBH, I've been with all the champions and watched how they train. And watching how Bode trained when he needed to go for it, I still never seen anything like it in my life.

JASON: He sees if he can train himself to death.

AUBREY: To death, yeah. And I know there's other people who are like that, but watching Bode with like 100-pound weight vest, sprinting up a hill that was steep, and it was rocky, and the ground was really loose, and you're slipping and falling, you got this weight. And he's scrambling up as if his life depends on making the time that he has. And, he's checking his heart rate. This is 2009, somewhere around there.

JASON: That was a big thing too. 

AUBREY: And, he's going so hard. Then at the end, he's just retching and puking, and then just dry heaving. Gets a little water, goes back down, does it again, repeats. So, that's the side of Bode that people don't also know, because they know that he also parties hard, and he did both. And that's I think one of the things that we loved about each other was that we would go for it in whatever thing that we went for. And that was really a big part of the genesis of Onnit was, alright, how do we make tools that help someone who really wants to push themselves? Whatever your own threshold is. Bode's threshold was different than mine, mine is different from somebody else. But tools to help you push your threshold. And the initial idea was, well, look, we need something to help mitigate the damage that we're doing when we're partying, and that was the initial idea. 

And so, the name Onnit came from Bode. Some people might know this. It was just something that we would say, like if he skied good. And for him, it didn't matter if he crashed or not. Good was whether he was really reading the mountain, giving it everything he got. He would say, "I'm on it." If I was playing a pickup basketball game, and I was really feeling it, I like, "I was fucking on it." Or if we were on the dance floor, and I was like, "I was on it tonight." Whatever, it didn't matter. On it was the word of us living up to our potential in that moment. Not an external potential, about what society says somebody should do. That was another beautiful lesson from Bode was, it didn't matter who was performing. He would get as much joy out of watching any one of his homies even if they sucked at a sport. But if they were giving it everything, and were reaching their potential, he would have tears in his eyes. Just like if you watched a world champion perform. It didn't matter the scale. What mattered to him, was an individual's potential. 

And that became the spirit of this. What is each individual's potential where they are? Not saying that because of this one's accolades, or this one's trophies, which Bode didn't give a shit about, honestly, what is their potential? And can they get a little bit closer to that? He was doing all the things. He was getting into ketosis well before people even knew what ketosis was, and he was showing me the strips and I was like, I don't fucking care, man. I don't get it. Eventually, years later, I was like, "Oh man, Bode, you were fucking on to this early." But that was that initial energy to it. 

And, just to continue with the start of this company, I made a business plan. I had like some business plan software and I kind of plugged everything in, and I wrote it all out. I'm a good writer. I understood what we were going for.

JASON: Tell me you still have that somewhere. 

AUBREY: Oh, man, I wish I did. Maybe, I saved my old computers in my safe. So, if I can remember the password to get in my computers, I can probably find the plan. But, we were having shrimp. I remember exactly. We were having shrimp cocktail at a restaurant in San Diego. And he's just eating his... He loves shrimp cocktail. Shrimp cocktail and chicken tenders are the primary Bode Miller diet, and a big, tall pint of beer. We both had a beer. And, I handed it to him, I was like, "Look, man, I'm interested in starting this." And, it's called Onnit. And he was like, alright. And then, he's going through it, he flips through it. And he's like, "I'm in, how much are you looking for?" And I was like, "60K." He's like, okay. Then I think we had a quick negotiation for how much percentage ultimately that got him. And I think at the time, that went up to maybe 10% or something like that, something pretty substantial. Because this was nothing, right? That was a $600,000 valuation of an idea. Which is an issue that... People, ultimately are like, what do you value this? I don't know. I mean, at that point, it's just an idea how much faith you have. But I figured with that. 

And then another piece that I had from another family friend investor, another 50 grand. That's how Onnit started with those two seed investors who just bet on an idea. And my other friend, same thing. He flipped through it even faster. Like it was a fucking flipbook. Like it was one of those things that you draw where someone is peeing off of a bridge, and the pea lands on something. You flip it, and it's like, oh, wow, pee going, this is good. They flipped through it that fast, but they were betting on me. They were betting on me. They both looked me in the eye, "You're going to do this? You're going to make this work? And I was like, "Yeah, I am. I am." And they put the money in and turned out to be one of the world's great investments, right? At that point. 

JASON: It did. I mean, I don't know what the odds are of those investments around the world when you're betting on friends and family. But as an entrepreneur, you have to have that person because you valuing that idea at 600,000 is only going to pass muster with somebody that really sincerely trusts you. Because otherwise, that idea's absolutely worth dick, right? 

AUBREY: Yeah, totally.

JASON: They're betting on you been able to pull it off.

AUBREY: And I had no credentials. I'd never done this before. I'd never proven that I could build a business and CPG, and do all the things. I mean, I had my own little marketing firm, and I'd sold a bunch of other people's stuff. But this was taking a bet on me as a human to learn and figure it out. And, they were both willing to do it. And, honestly, to just go a little bit into the start, I mean, we brought... I ran through all of that money, all that 110,000. I actually borrowed an extra 30 grand from another friend. And this was just a loan to actually finally make the first Alpha Brain push, because the purchase of pills at that point was just like the smallest batch possible. And at that point, I had already talked to Joe about what supplements he would like the most. He was like a nootropic. And then I went to go make the nootropic. I've told this story a bunch of times, got all the research, talked to the doctors, formulated this thing. It was a pivot from the hangover recovery supplements that this started into a different field. And that's really where the future of Onnit, I saw it crystallize. I saw that crystallize. But we were completely out of money. But we had someone who was willing to take a bet on us. Dale was willing to take a bet on us. 

JASON: Yeah, still working with him today. 

AUBREY: And Dale was like, alright, I'll make you this sample. Even though the numbers were so small, I got rejected by everybody, the price per pill was so high that everybody was telling me it was ridiculous. I was like, we've got to just make the best one we can possibly fucking make. Got the samples, the samples looked good. And I borrowed that last bit of money to just get enough, just get enough that on Net 30, mind you. Net 30 was huge, because I couldn't even pay. I couldn't even fully pay for the full amount, so we had to sell through in order to even make this work, or the whole thing would have collapsed. It was right down to the brink. But I could feel when Alpha Brain was created and that formula started to have the traction, and I could feel that energy build, it's like, you just feel the rocket engine starting to fire up. 

And that's where, to go the longest circuitous route to your point about intuition, that was that moment where I was like, "Oh, shit, all the pieces are really lining up." This formula is revolutionary, because you can feel it, you're not imagining that you're taking a brain supplement. You're feeling that you take it. And it reminds me of what... I used to take my intro to supplements just to briefly fill people back in. My stepmom was a nutritional doctor, worked with a lot of athletes. Would give me a stack of supplements on game day, stack of supplements on test day. So, I had experience with taking things that actually tangibly had an effect, but it was a big stack. And I didn't, at that time know what that stack was. But I went back and researched that and figured it all out. Went to all the individual ingredient clinical research and put something together, and I could feel the rocket ship. And then of course, Joe's interest in it. And Joe feeling like, "Man, this thing is fucking fire. This Alpha Brain is legit." 

And I remember that, obviously, that's a word that Joe likes a lot. He's like, "This is legit." In that moment, I could feel that. And so, basically going into spending money I didn't have with the Net 30, getting the supplements but not even paying for the next 30 days, it felt right. And the intuition was right. Also, I did an ayahuasca journey at the time. Ayahuasca at that point, showed me that this was going to work. It showed me all the ways that I needed to unkink all of the different hoses and different ways in which things could flow, the energy could flow out and in smoothly, like the ecosystem could become healthy. And I saw that crystal clear, and I could feel it. That's when I knew there was something remarkable. 

But shit, I was in an attic, and I had virtually had one employee who was still working mostly for my marketing company. One employee in an attic above a little shop that I had with my fiancée Caitlin. He was selling handmade leather goods. 

JASON: I didn't know there was a shop below it.

AUBREY: There was a shop underneath it, yeah. This tiny little place on the East Side.

JASON: That's funny. 

AUBREY: And, we push out that first round of Alpha Brain. I go on the podcast, sell through it in like a day. And then I got with Dale, we got another shipment coming in 10 days that was twice as big, sold through that in a day. Another shipment twice as big. And there it was. There was the initial rocket ship. And then it was okay, now we've established what we can do for the brain, let's establish what we can do for your mood, let's establish what we can do for a pre-workout that's not going to make you jittery. And without going through all of the details of every step from there, this total human optimization idea that we had, and this then this idea of being a little bit better tomorrow than today, of getting yourself to the place where you're on it. That became the guide star, and we just started creating thing after thing after thing that would fit into it, and the company started to grow. But it was really about what's the dopest thing that I can make for me?

JASON: When I think about that, the fascinating thing is, when you look in the rearview mirror, you can see all these really unique data points that allowed that to be successful. You look back and you're like, well, that friendship with Bode, the... Maybe not even a friendship yet but just acquaintanceship with Joe, you knew Roger, so you had this connection to the fight game, and your step mom's knowledge of supplementation, your mom's athletic background--

AUBREY: Yeah, mom went to semifinals of Wimbledon. So she knew a thing about--

JASON: Yeah. And so, when you start putting all those things together, it all kind of narrows into what would be the perfect company. But at the time, it's not that clear. That's why I talk about intuition is because, you know you're in the middle of the forest. And for some reason, your intuition is telling you that way, and it feels like it's more than a hunch. You know that the right direction is there. And it's almost like all these wayfinding signs that we talk about in the rearview mirror are in your head somewhere. You get yourself tuned in to what the right direction is to go. And a lot of times, ayahuasca can clear that up for you, and get rid of some of the minutia that we put in our heads. Because in the rearview mirror, I could tell you, this is where you should go. It makes a lot of sense. But at the time, it's not as clear. You just keep taking one step at a time, feels a little bit better, and then you amend and polish and eventually you have a diamond.

AUBREY: Yeah, I mean ayahuasca was just really clear. It was, make the best thing you can possibly make, and make it obvious what it's for. And just authentically share that. All right, what's the best thing you can make for the brain? All right, and make sure it has brain in the name. It was really simple. Do this in the purest way possible. And that's what's going to allow the energy to move through without... Because I think there's a tendency to try to do too much. But if you really have the goods, and you really know what it is, and I think people are learning that. The way that the market is now versus in 2010, 2011, it's so different because people have learned that lesson. But I think that was another one of the differentiators was, we're going to be really clear with what we're doing, and what we're offering. And, that just kind of establishes the bounds of what this thing is internally.

JASON: One of the things, the very first conversation I ever had with Bode was about flow state. I heard you talking about flow state in 2011. Now you hear plenty of people talk about flow state and theta waves, alpha waves, and how the mind works. But back then, it seemed very ethereal and almost woo woo. And now it seems like it's very mainstream science. And when I hear Onnit, I always go to flow state and getting yourself into that zone that is on it, do you equate those two? Flow state and being on it?

AUBREY: I think the epitome of being on it, is to be in flow state. But flow state's a tricky thing, because it requires all of the practice and all of the work. People say, oh, yeah, flow state, like surfing. Try to learn how to surf, and tell me if you get in fucking flow state. You're not. You're going to be paddling, you're going to be getting moved sideways, your board's going to be the wrong way, then you're going to try to do the thing where you roll over, but you're sideways, and you're going to get pummeled. And then you're going to miss the wave, and then you're not going to know which wave to chase after, and then you're going to take someone else's wave. And that's going to be... You're not going to be anywhere close. You have to put in all of that work all on the front side, and then get yourself into the optimal position, where then you can actually get into that state. So, it's--

JASON: Yeah, there's no entry level flow state. 

AUBREY: No, I mean, maybe with some other thing that you're on like some kind of gyro device with an easy learning curve, and it's brand new, and it can create those kinds of conditions. But, what we're really talking about being on it, it's a slow and steady climb, and you can reach a little bit of levels, closer and closer and closer towards that. But there's a certain barrier that you have to cross, but then the epitome, the gold standard of being on it, is when all of that all falls away, and you're just really in the deep, deep now. That deep present moment.

JASON: Man, I just put something together. We talk a lot, we've had a lot of conversations, and they all come back to one thing is, there is no free lunch. You have to earn everything. There is no skipping levels, in entrepreneurship, being on it in athletics, whatever it might be. And, so, between the start and where you really get to to that, there is a grind there that has to be acknowledged, right? And you certainly had it with the growth of the company, you've certainly had it in your personal life. And that grind has to be embraced in some way. Because things aren't going to go perfect. You do have to do all those things, like you were just talking about with surfing. You have to get past all of those things to get to the win.

AUBREY: Yeah, and there's going to be points where it all looks really bleak. And then we're going to talk about a lot of these points where at the start, it looked bleak, I was out of money, things weren't working. And it was like, dammit, another one. Because I failed in a lot of things, not just my men's nail polish company. That's not my only failure. There was many. Things that I really believed in. But nothing quite had that sense of energy, which from subsequently, I've felt many other times. That was the first time I really learned the qualitative difference between what I felt then when I had Alpha Brain ready, and all of the things lined up, versus what I had felt before which is more like mind, and I think this will work. It was very cerebral. But this is knowing with a G. You just know it. 

And I've subsequently felt that like with my book, with Fit For Service, even when we were acquiring Black Swan Yoga, I felt it. I felt something there that was like, yes. My whole body just said yes, without my mind having to know why. But my intuition took training, because my mind was so dominant, that the subtle ways that I was tracking, and also my map of the whole world wasn't honed right. So, my intuition was often wrong, because it just didn't know the territory so well. It was still learning. And I think it's a dance. It's not some magical thing. It's a dance between your subconscious, your ability to track a multiplicity of different things that your conscious mind might not be able to track, and maybe some other element that's going to some higher levels of your spirituality. Just maybe. But it's not even necessary for that.

What's necessary is that you understand the map, and that your subconscious, the same way that in the movie "Rain Man" Dustin Hoffman has a condition called Savant syndrome, where he could track all of the little things that fell to the ground, and he knew what number it was, the conscious mind couldn't do that. But in Savant syndrome, which is an actual condition, a lot of times what they're doing is accessing an innate computation ability of the subconscious processing of the mind. And then being able to bring that up consciously. And I think we're doing that all the time, and that's what's really fueling our intuition. But without some training, without some wheels, we just don't have the ability to compute that. So it takes it out of the woo woo, and it's like, oh, no, really, this is me making micro calculations and micro assessments to actually arrive to a place where I know the probability, and the probability is super in our favor. And my intuition says, hell yes.

JASON: Yeah, yeah. You what that makes me think of too is, when intuition, if it is finely tuned and you are making the all those calculations, that doesn't mean the future states going to necessarily be the win. Also, in addition to Black Swan, we've had a couple other ventures that ended up not working. But it wasn't necessarily because there wasn't magic there, there wasn't something special, but there was other variables. We're still dealing with a million other variables that could keep something from working that really don't have anything to do with the intuition.

AUBREY: Oh, yeah. Even still. And interestingly, though, on those other things, did I have that feeling of like--

JASON: I bet.

AUBREY: No.

JASON: Oh, no?

AUBREY: In some of those other ones, like if we're talking about motorcycles, or float tanks, if we're talking about those different ventures, those are like, should we? I mean, it's a good idea. That's where we were at. It wasn't like, this is it, man. I feel it. This is it. There was a difference, there was a difference. But the stakes weren't that high. The stakes weren't high enough for us to actually be waiting for that full fuck yes. And I think that's something for anybody starting out in their path, don't get distracted with the I think, and maybe you have to take some chances on that until your intuition is honed. And that's okay. It's okay to have those. But when you really start to hone your own ability to calculate, there's a qualitative difference between what feels like, oh, yeah, this is something. And not.

JASON: What you're hitting on there, too, is I think, the biggest problem with anyone that doesn't achieve success. They look at the 1000 steps it's going to take and then not take the first one. The first one's the hardest one. And one thing I really believe in with the content that Onnit puts out is, it can be aspirational or inspirational to take that first step. But more importantly, it's affirmational to take all those other ones, right?

AUBREY: Well said.

JASON: That first step, though, is the hardest. But if you can get yourself to do that. It's tough, because you don't know what's coming. You know that you don't know what's coming, you may not even know how to do what you're doing. But the only way to get it done, first step.

AUBREY: Yeah. So, let's jump ahead now to this step, which is not the last step. This is just another step. So, to go to where we are now, we have to go back to the point where we did our last podcast, which was me stepping down as CEO. And at that point, I recognized that I had taken Onnit as CEO, as official captain, I'd taken it as far as my journey was going to take it in that capacity. I was no longer willing and desiring to do the job that the right CEO, you, would be doing on a day to day basis. It was a recognition of, now's the time. Now's the time to do this. And that was again one of those knowing moments. 

And also, what was necessary for that is that I didn't have an identity attachment to those three little letters, CEO, like that made me something special that I could put on my business card, and talk to people about. My identity was scattered into a million things. It's not like I don't have an ego and I don't have an identity, but I've done a good job diversifying my ego in a certain way. It was in a bunch of other different stuff. It was In my spiritual actualization, it was in my Fit For Service community, it was in my book writing, it was in my poetry, it was in my podcast, it was in my newsletters, it was in my posts, it was in so many other things. And yes, of course, it was in Onnit, but it was just a small part. And so, I didn't even suffer that identity crisis. And a lot of people would ask me, "Hey, how you're doing after stepping down?" I'm like, "Fucking great." Because I because I didn't have so much wrapped up in it, it made it easier. And it also made my judgment clear that this is the time for me to let these aspects go. 

And we had that, with you as the new CEO, and now me in a different role, that arm's length discussion, like alright, so now what do I do? Well, product development. I love being in product development. I have constant new ideas, I have a deep understanding of what can make someone a little better. I want to be involved in that. And it was like, yeah, of course, obviously. That's where your magic is still being served. And, to this day, I've still only missed, I don't know, one or two of those meetings since the inception of Onnit. 

JASON: Maybe one, yeah.

AUBREY: And so, that's been something that stayed on. And then what else? Oh, well, I love talking about Onnit and advertising Onnit on the podcast, and doing these other things. Okay, great. I want to be on the board for those big decisions that are coming, like this big decision to sell the company, and holding that space. Great. So we just outlined what that was. And that put me in a position where I was doing absolutely everything that I wanted to do for Onnit, and was always available if a person need me, an employee needed me, or if there was a decision that we needed to talk over, if I had an idea. It wasn't like a hard bound, but it was a clearly defined stepdown. And that was a big position, as like a parent, to say, okay, Onnit, my child, you're now in better hands, being held by the community. You don't need to be... My initial fathership of it, it was time to let that aspect go, and you're an adult now. And you're going to find your way in your own way with this different thing. And I'll always be there to support you. But it was that kind of kicking the kid out of my house moment, and letting it be held by the collective group of which you were the new captain of that. So, that was a big step. 

But at that point, we'd already had a couple different ways in which we were trying to actually sell a minority stake in the company to get more working capital, to help this thing grow, to get some expertise from some people. And it just wasn't working. We got really close with one, that deal fell through. We got not so close the next time around. And it was like, I don't know what's going to happen here. But my love for Onnit has never changed, and my passion for it has never changed. But my desire to continue in the capacity I was has changed. So let's see what happens if I take a step back and let this thing run from someone who is truly passionate as you are to put in those ridiculous hours, to check under every rug. And we'll talk about some of these things that are in there, that are necessary that I used to do, that now you were willing and eager to do, and more qualified to do because of your desire to do it in the way that you didn't have your energy spread to all of those things that I mentioned.

JASON: Well, it's true. I really had my identity wrapped into Onnit quite a bit over the years of being here. And Onnit's success was my success, and vice versa. And so, I really was tied very deeply at the roots of Onnit. And so, I think that transition wasn't really all that hard for you, me or the team. It felt very natural.

AUBREY: It was very natural. 

JASON: And I think the one thing it did allow us to do is just because of the difference in our personalities, is I focus very much internally and went to operational efficiency, and all those less sexy things, to try to drive profitability, because we didn't get any external cash infusion that we had to generate it ourselves. And so, looked internally and then things started to chug very quickly. While this company was poised to benefit greatly from that anyways, and we were hitting a point from the marketing team where revenue was going to start going up. And then when we combine that with our flowthrough going up, and then COVID happened on top of it. And while we didn't take advantage of COVID in any ways, we sell long-shelf-life food, and immunity supplements, and at-home fitness, but none of those even became our top eight products, right? So, we didn't take advantage of it, but there were tailwinds of more people shopping online and more people worried about their health. 

And so, all those things, that confluence, the things that happened at the same time really caught the company, coincidentally, together, and it grew very quickly over this year. And so, then it became obvious that well, if we're going to take our big shot, if we do want Onnit to achieve its highest and best goal of touching as many humans as possible, then we need help to scale us to that next level platform. That's something we could only do ourselves over decades, what we might be able to do over the next few years, by having a partner that's already established in that way.

AUBREY: Yeah, and when we're talking to Unilever, and we're talking to them about what they're able and capable of doing with Onnit, they're an international company. Joe Rogan and I talked about what we always envisioned for Onnit, and he actually coined this, he says, Onnit is a disruptive global entity. He said that. Why he said that, I don't know. But it was like, okay, yeah, man, disruptive global entity. And I think our principles have extended across the globe, but our products hardly have, because there's a lot of logistical steps and challenges for us to actually put the tools in the hands of the world, collectively. We can put ideas into the world, people can consume our content on Instagram, or the Onnit Academy anywhere. But we haven't been able to get tools in the hands of most of the world. 

JASON: That's right.

AUBREY: Just a couple of countries, maybe. Mostly just the US. But they have all of that already worked out. They have the team, they have the expertise, they have the counsel, they have the ability to get it all out there. And beautifully, in talking to some of the principals there, the alignment was unbelievable. My goal was that I really want to respect whoever's taking this over, because I love Onnit. This is a child to me, this is the closest thing I have to a child. And I was hoping that I would really respect the people who were going to take it over. And understanding that also, they needed to leave Onnit as it was with the team in place and all that. 

But when I met the principals there, and spend time with Peter, I recognized, oh, man, this is someone that I really, really like. He was at Burning Man the same year that I met my wife, right? There was just all of these different things of like, this is like a brother, and that was beautiful, and I'm so happy that it worked out that way. And that's one of those things where I just tip my cap to the universe, and say, thank you for offering not only this opportunity for Onnit to grow into where it's ultimately becoming. But, thank you for bringing people at the top that really resonate with what our core character is, which is heart and which is this real feeling, this understanding of what the pulse of this is. It's not just because he went to Burning Man once or whatever. That doesn't ultimately matter. It's just an example of, it wasn't what I expected, and it's just worked out better than I ever would have expected and way better than any of those previous meetings that we had. 

JASON: Yeah. 

AUBREY: And I'm not trying to put out a universal endorsement of everything that Unilever has done with its 180,000 employees, and dozens of brands. I'm not in that position. But what I am here to do is make sure that Onnit reaches the world in the best way possible. And that's what I'm focused on. And, I truly believe with every cell of my being that, knowing with the G, that these guys are going to be able, and gals, are going to be able to take this to what the ultimate fruition of what Onnit can be. They're going to help make Onnit Onnit from here.

JASON: Yes, undoubtedly. I had some apprehension going into it thinking that there was any likelihood we were going to get interest from a company that big that we would accept. I knew we'd get interest, but I didn't think... There's so many global entities that I stop short of saying aren't doing right by the world, but aren't doing it to the level that we would expect. And, Unilever is definitely not one of those companies. I don't have to fake being excited about that. I don't have to sell it to the team, because genuinely that company and Peter himself are doing more for sustainability than most countries. It's their responsibility to do that, they're in the position to be able to do that but they genuinely are, and they're backing it up. Then secondarily, they're going to allow Onnit to continue mission without the disruptive interference. 

AUBREY: And that was incredibly clear. And also, I'm sure that there's going to be things that, now that we've established that relationship with them, that will be able to inform the parent. Like any parent child relationship, it should be bilateral. And I think oftentimes, we get that wrong. "Do what I say, because I said it." No, we should be learning from our kids. And our kids should inform us how, if we've forgotten how to play, they should teach us how to play. If they understand something that's of a new morality, that's of a new ethos, and era, and epoch than our generation, and they see it in a different... Let's see through their eyes. And I really believe with him that, I'm sure as we go on and this relationship is established, and we're that one phone call away, and we know each other, and we're part of this family, we're going to find things, like, hey, we see this in this other corner, we came across. It doesn't feel right to us. 

And, actually try to affect change from the inside. I don't have any of those things in mind. But I can just see the type of relationship where instead of saying, oh, big corporation bad, it exists, and they will always exist, how can we from the inside change them and improve them, so that they become better, so that the world becomes better? You can look at McDonald's, say, "Fucking McDonald's." All right, what if you got into McDonald's and owned, had that influence on, whoever, Ray Kroc's new team is. It's probably a conglomerate, whatever. You're right in there. You're like, you guys, the way that you're fucking getting your chickens is fucked up. And it's not going to work in this world. And it's not right. And have them listen and be like, you're right, we're really not doing these chickens proper.

JASON: You're not just saying that though. If you look at Ben and Jerry's social, they check them all the time. And so--

AUBREY: Ben and Jerry's is another company that Unilever owns. 

JASON: Yeah. So, I mean, just the fact that that is, I don't know if it's encouraged, it seems like it is, though. It is pretty encouraging--

AUBREY: And that's the type of dialogue you want. You want to have that. It's something that we've encouraged internally too. Those dissenting views are treasured, and you have to reward those, because that's the only thing that's going to come filtered up. You have to reward the courage to say the thing that goes against the consensus. As a side note, the opposite of what's happening in the world right now, where people who go against the consensus are vilified. But those voices need to be cherished, because it takes courage to do that. And if you don't abide by those principles, you're going to get sunk, because you're going to be high on your own sauce all day.

JASON: Yeah, I made a couple of notes as we go through the 23. There's one thing that that wasn't in there. I was trying to figure out a place to put it in there, because it's something that you have always done. And it's honestly, maybe the most important thing that you could teach people, because I've never seen anybody do it better than you. And that is to protect yourself from the infallibility complex. Anytime that you have absolute power, it's a problem if you don't reward people with dissenting opinions. Because then you get people that are just a reflection of whatever you say, right or wrong. And then you start to get confused that, man, I'm on a roll, I'm right all the time. And then you start to take things in the wrong direction. When a dissenting opinion comes up, it is vilified. Not just by you, but by the group, right? That can happen organizationally, or just in any sort of tribe, big or small. 

And you from the very beginning, every time I've seen somebody challenge you, even if they were way out of line, you've sat, quietly listened, and pondered and checked yourself. That's something that that, I think, is one of the most important leadership lessons that anybody can learn. Because the moment you get into the infallibility, or don't create a system of checks and balances for yourself, it might take a long time, but you're going to sink.

AUBREY: Yeah, bonus rule. We just gave a bonus rule. Actually, we're going to avoid saying names and positions of all employees. We're going to tell stories and things. But we had a contrarian on our C level who was just naturally, a contrarian. I think probably he stayed and was valued for that even probably longer than his natural time was, because it was so nice to have a contrarian. Instead of it being like, "God, he's disagreeing with everything we say." That was such a valued position because he wasn't always right and often the contrary opinion was wrong. But ultimately, having that voice that we can consistently count on to play the devil's advocate, but play it for real. Like, genuinely, for real, play devil's advocate and come at--

JASON: Come at it strong.

AUBREY: Every single opinion, and even come at me. And ultimately, not all of this was good, but it was appreciated. It was appreciated that everything was always being checked and measured. And you have to celebrate that.

JASON: So important. 

AUBREY: Yeah. Well, we started with one. The bonus one. Let's get into these. 

JASON: I think that one does fit in here. So we'll come back to it. 

AUBREY: All right, number one, if you're thinking about being an entrepreneur, your mission, the way to think about your mission is, your mission is solving a problem. Always think about the problem you're solving. Don't think about this cool thing that you have. Always focus on the problem. So, what was the problem? The problem was that Onnit was trying to solve, people didn't have the tools, the energy, the inspiration to actually take those steps to be better tomorrow than they are today. Better next week than they are this week. Better next month than they are this month. It was a big thing. And that's why our mission, total human optimization, it was big. But the problem was the same. There was a missing need for a place where they could get information, tools and inspiration, all in an energetically aligned place, like a single flag that was planted in the ground strong. And that was the problem that we were addressing. And, that, ultimately becomes the mission in a lot of ways. 

JASON: Yeah, I hear you say that. I almost think that that is the plant or the tree that grew from the initial seed, because I think there's even something that happened before that. There was this almost unconscionable lack of conversation around brain health, ever. Not only was there not conversation about brain health, there wasn't a conversation about mental health, or mental acuity. We have been talking about heart health for 50 years. No one's talking about brain health. But all of a sudden, you start hearing people talk about CTE in NFL players five years down the road, or PTSD in soldiers about that time, or ADHD in kids, Alzheimer's in adults. We're talking about deficiencies of the brain. But no one I had ever heard was talking about brain health for people baseline up till I heard you. And brain performance, right? You were the first person to talk about it, but not just talked about it, talk about it from how exercise can help, how nootropics can help, how things like L-tryptophan can help, positioning the mood, and balancing yourself to get into flow state can help. All of those things. You were the first person I ever heard talk about it.

AUBREY: It's interesting, because that was established for the body. People understand that if you want the body to perform in a sport, then you have to do these different things. But we're not physical professionals, or mental professionals, most of us. Very, very few are actually physical body professionals, where we're actually doing something with our body that is our vocation and how we earn a living. We're really using our mind. And so, understanding that there's ways to both train and support the mind to actually reach its potential, to become on it. So again, tools, information, inspiration, all of these things coming together, and looking at the totality of a being and saying, where's the place to start? Well, it sure as shit ain't the body. Because that's all for funsies for most of us. Obviously, we're not talking about treating medical conditions. So performance of the body, it's for fun. But the mind, getting the mind perform well, that can make a huge difference. That can be the difference in your career, in your professional capability. And whether you able to finish that piece of writing or literature or art or whatever that project is you're working on. Can you stay focused enough? Can you support yourself? Again, with the products, the information, the inspiration, all of the things that you need, and the diet, the lifestyle, all of that, can you get that? And so that was the problem that we were solving.

JASON: Even physical. Like you've played a lot of basketball. Do you play better when your mind's right? 

AUBREY: Exactly. That's what you hear all the athletes say, 90% is mental. They'll all say that. But then how much time do you spend training the mind? Well, now, lots of people are. That's become more in vogue now. Because people understand that.

JASON: Now, there's float tanks in every locker room. That just wasn't a thing before. 

AUBREY: Yep. So start with the problem. Really deeply understand the problem that you're looking to solve, and then really go towards that, and let it be your mission to solve that problem in the most beautiful and efficient way possible.

JASON: And you don't start with the solution all the time, right? You start with the direction maybe. And I think you did that. You talked about how you had to pivot several times as you were there. You had the basis of something, you didn't know exactly what it looked initially. But you just started working on it. And it did, it started with, well, you felt kind of shitty with a hangover. And then it evolved into mental performance. And so, you took the first step.

AUBREY: Yeah, no doubt. Yeah, that was a clear point of, well, it is important to support your body when you're hung over. But that's also again, not nearly as important as every single day, can I get my mind to be a little bit better? That's something that I think was really a huge, huge rocket propulsion for where we were going. 

JASON: Yep. 

AUBREY: All right. You were your first and last customer. So, I think this is really important and I'll explain this, how I look at it. A lot of people think of being an entrepreneur, "I'll create this widget for this market that I'm not even interested in." One of my favorite widgets is the little skewers did you put on the end of corn cobs, so you don't have to hold a buttered corncob. Well, if you're going to make that widget, you better eat corn. Especially in today's world, you know what I mean? All of these other easy simple widgets, they've all been done. But if you fucking love corn, and you grow corn, and you got your heirloom corn seeds, and they're coming out purple, and gold and white, and it's all multicolored and beautiful, and you understand the right way, and you have this thing, and you're willing to put out content about corn and corn souffles, and corn popcorn and how to make this thing and then you sell this widget, that's your right thing for you. You're your first customer.

It's you who are tired of getting your fingers all buttery when you eat your delicious heirloom corn. Then do that. But if not, I just don't think it works in today's world, this idea of I'm going to be a patent inventor, and I'm going to come up with this widget thing. Maybe in the bleeding edges of tech, or the bleeding edges of mechanics you can come up with that. If you're making a component for a laser, because you're a fucking genius, but you have no use for industrial lasers. I get it. That might really work. But as a non-normal entrepreneur, you've got to be in there. You've got to be your first customer. Alpha Brain was something I wanted to take all the time. I still take it. I'm on it now.

JASON: Me too. I'm on a double dose right now. 

AUBREY: Yeah, for sure. And Joe was the same. He still doesn't do a podcast without it. He still doesn't do a UFC broadcast. We wanted this, we were our first customer. Literally, I took it first, the very first one. Joe took it second. We were literally the first customers of this product, and of every subsequent product. And I think that's really important to be your first, in whatever way, and we'll go through some of the other things. 

But also the last. And this is something that I talked about as well. At the point where you're done, let's say go back to that initial analogy. You're just done with corn. You're like, "I'm keto now, I don't eat corn anymore." At that point, it's time for you to get out. It's time for you to let somebody else handle it who's still passionate about corn. Get out. And for me, it wasn't exactly that point. I'm still an Onnit customer, and that's why I'm still always going to be involved. Even with the impending transaction and change of ownership, we were just talking before about the ways that I'm going to continue doing everything that I wanted to continue to do anyway. So, I'm still a part of this as long as... And if I wasn't, it would be a different conversation. It'd be like, look, I'm just done with human optimization.

JASON: I'm going to get fat as shit. I'm just going to pick my nose all day, play video games.

AUBREY: Or be some kind of spiritual ascetic, where I just don't eat and I just waste away because the... But I don't believe that. I believe that the body is the seed of the soul. And so, I'm always going to be putting that passion and that fire. How do I make this thing even better? And so that's why, I'm going to be an Onnit customer forever. And that's the way I want it. I want it to be that way. So I was both first and last customer. And I think that's the sweet spot you want to be in.

JASON: It is. I hadn't heard anybody say it just like that before. But the corn analogy is actually pretty interesting. Because I'll take that even a step further, is, you can tell somebody's going to have a successful business, if no matter what they're selling, you can tell, or they can tell you why it's one of the most important things in the world, right?. And if that corn person is talking about how this is the new way to make gasoline, and they're talking about all the places that you can add corn, and even if you're looking at them, like, you're talking to some bullshit. But they really believe it. They thirst for how important this is to the world. That matters. And that's going to win, that passion is going to win. 

First and last is the same as ride or die, right? They are there no matter what. And, you've always been that with total human optimization. So it's not just Alpha Brain and brain health and cognitive, but all the way through. We don't have a product that I don't think you were, that you weren't the first customer of.

AUBREY: And that's a secret. People are like, how did you come up with all of these different products? First of all, there's a whole host of people who help come up with both ideation, but I'm a deep part of this. And it's, I become a customer of something, and then I see that thing, a possibility for that being better. Sometimes it just doesn't exist at all. There's just no way, but oftentimes, I'll see... Oh, like the steel mace, for example, right? I saw in some obscure websites, my mad methods, obscure--

JASON: Magazine.

AUBREY: Yeah, magazine, right? I was like, wow, they're swinging this mace, and it comes from 12th century Persian. I found some obscure place that will send me one, and I start messing around with it. I'm like, this is great. But this was really hard. The weights are off, the handle's weird. Everything's like, I want to use this. But it doesn't exist. So I became, I made that product for me, because I wanted it, because I thought I was going to enjoy it. And still to this day, I enjoy it. I love it. So, my ideation is just because I'm passionate about all of these areas of human optimization. I'm in there, and I'm doing it. 

JASON: Yeah. 

AUBREY: And some of the things that I take that we don't... I'm still harping on this, trying to figure out a way to meet, or exceed something else that I'm doing. Some of our product development meetings, I'm like, "Fuck, guys, I'm still taking this thing." And it's good. But can we do it better? And there's been things on the docket for years, where we're like, can't quite do it better. Maybe we'll... But we're just not quite there yet, where I would be willing to switch over and be a new customer of that thing. So, until we solve that problem, I'd rather be the customer of somebody else. And that's a shitty place to be in. If you make a product, but you're using someone else's product, don't fucking make that product. You gotta be your first customer. If you make it, you gotta make the switch, because it's better.

JASON: I tell this story to this day of DigesTech leading to Total Gut Health. That's what happened there. You made DigesTech, because you wanted to take those enzymes. We made Total Gut Health because you were taking DigesTech and other people's shit.

AUBREY: Yeah, totally. That's exactly it. I was like, great. Now, I don't have to buy these enzymes from anybody because we've made the flagship digestive enzyme, we got all of the different ingredients in here that I want in a high-level digestive enzyme, but I'm still taking HCL, and I'm still taking some probiotics, I'm still taking some prebiotics. I'm still taking this saccharomyces, boulardii separately, let's put all these together. 

JASON: And now it's a top five product.

AUBREY: Right. And, I was the first customer and I'm still, to this day, I'm going to be the last customer. This is one of those things that, it's top five for me, too. And interestingly, our top five is also my top five. I mean, maybe with some of the fitness stuff. Like you could say that I use the mace more than our average sales would be, but for our core products, like if you're looking at my travel bag, you're going to see, the Alpha Brain, the Total Gut Health, the Total Human Packets, and the Shroom Tech, this is what you see. Super stoked that we have the new Mood Instant, by the way. That's fucking good.

JASON: We've gotten so much better at flavoring, too.

AUBREY: And we'll talk about some of that, like doubling down on our wins. Because that's an area where we could have been a lot better. But yeah, man, the secret is that I am the audience, I am the market, I am the one. Not me representing just the needs at large, and understanding that we're all a lot more similar than we realize. We're all so much more like each other than we are different, as much as we try to pretend that this person is other, this person is other, because of this. We're all very much more similar. From a DNA level, from a desire level, we all want to live a long, healthy life with a family with a lot of love.

JASON: And we all have a struggle. It's just they're all different.

AUBREY: No doubt. And that's really the beauty of it. I think that puts you in such an advantageous position. Because otherwise if you have a workout company, but you don't like working out, you're never going to get it. You're never going to really understand so you're not going to be able to guide it. But if you're really right in there, you'll be able to always make those right decisions. Doesn't mean you'll be impeccable. But you'll be right more than not. 

JASON: That's right. Yep. 

AUBREY: The other thing I want to talk about is, sometimes it still doesn't work. So, this is something I want to bring up, because to this day, my favorite pair of pants are the Aubrey Marcus Collection stretch jeans. By far. I wear those probably three days out of the week. Like a ridiculous amount. I wear them every time I go to the airport. They're an amazing piece of custom cut and sew clothes. And we kind of launched them--

JASON: I have three pairs by the way, just to get that out. I like them too. And the Aubrey Marcus Sweatpants, I wear them every night. 

AUBREY: For sure. We made some incredible things that I am still a customer of. So, why didn't that work? Well, I mean we sold some, it was fine, but it didn't take off. And I think one, apparel wasn't our core competency. It wasn't in an area that we... To really make something like that work, if you're going to branch out to something else, you got to go heavy. Go heavy or not at all. This is like a another rule. I don't know if we'll get to this. Oh, yeah, this is actually number three. So we're going to go right to this. Right now it says be great or not at all. But there's another section to that, which is not only be great, but go heavy, or not at all. And we weren't willing to be an apparel company. We weren't really willing to go heavy enough and attack apparel in the way that we were willing to... Because it was tangential. I didn't fit with the mission, ultimately. It was an awesome product, but it didn't line up with that mission.

JASON: It wasn't totally total human optimization. 

AUBREY: No, it was total human casual luxury, which is not the same thing. So, being mindful of that, it was a great product, I was the first customer, I will be the last customer, because we're not going to make any more of those. I'm going to have to keep my old ones. But it's doesn't mean that it's going to work for now, and it's going to fit into that mission. So, it doesn't mean that it's going to guarantee success.

JASON: Well, even in things that are total human optimization. Like something that you were taking for a while, and you were a big advocate of was fulvic minerals. And it was a very esoteric product, and we came out with it, but it just didn't sell. It was just too niche for what we were trying to do. 

AUBREY: And honestly, I stopped taking it because our flavoring of that was garbage.

JASON: We even advertised it, tastes like dirt, I think. But there was no way to flavor it. 

AUBREY: I bet we could now. 

JASON: We could probably now, yeah.

AUBREY: But I ended up switching to, I'd take the sea salt and ocean minerals and things, things of that nature. Just going back to the salt bases of the minerals. I'm still interested in fulvic. But we had such a disaster trying to flavor it, that ultimately, I didn't want to take it anymore. So I stopped taking. So that product was one of the ones that we just had to let go, which is another rule, Kill Your Darlings. We'll get to that. 

But that idea, so going back to that, be great or not at all, or go heavy or not at all, we also made that mistake with personal care. We had some personal care products that did actually fit more into the mission, what goes on your body gets in your body, it is part of human optimization, and the products were great. But we weren't willing to go heavy enough. We weren't willing to push down the accelerator on those particular topics, because it wasn't in our core competency. It was a whole other field that we would have had to look at.

JASON: Yeah, it fell into the lifestyle that I think people would equate with the Onnit lifestyle. And in fact, I remember us planning a video where you were going to eat every piece of our personal--

AUBREY: I have a picture licking it in a magazine somewhere.

JASON: Yeah, deodorant, lip balm, all of it was--

AUBREY: And licking the deodorant to be clear.

JASON: Super safe, and the toothpaste was interesting. But you're right. It fell into this area of just because we can do it, doesn't mean we should. That's what it felt like. We could do it, and we could even claim it was total human optimization. But should we go there? The lesson for me is, and we'll get into, expand on those winners. But it kept us away from focusing in on some of those hero products. Because developing products is not a lazy man's game.

AUBREY: No, no. So, talking about being great at it, one of the things that we realize is we're always going to be judged by the worst product. It's like the chain is as strong as the weakest link. We're going to be judged by the worst thing that we have. And so we had resistance bands that we were selling at one point. That kept snapping. They were not good, right? But they had the Onnit name on it. We have the Onnit name on these resistance bands. It's of course nice to have resistance bands. But these things would snap like bad rubber bands, right? And so, we're like, oh, fuck, this is not good because we're going to be... The moment that thing snaps, then in someone's mind our brand snaps. The Onnit brand just snapped, just took a dent, just took a fucking divot right out of that, is that they're looking at this thing that says Onnit, and it's broken on the ground. 

JASON: Now, I'm going to take a capsule? 

AUBREY: Yeah, exactly. 

JASON: Yeah, where's the trust with the customer? 

AUBREY: Exactly. And that's where we didn't take the time to engineer the resistance band to the level where it was great.

JASON: Yes, you're exactly right. And especially because a lot of Onnit customers wanted to use resistance bands for explosive type training. So, they were not the resistance bands for that. 

AUBREY: Right, yeah. And if we wanted to go back to that, we know now the rules. This was part of the lessons, which hopefully this transmission is helping people so they can at least hear it. Maybe you'll have to make those mistakes yourself. But at least hear it first. T-shirts were something I think we did a good job of, because most companies, they just take the basic stock T-shirt which doesn't fit, at all, and it's the wrong material, and it looks feels really cheap. They just put their logo on it, and they call that a day. But I was never okay with that. I always wanted to find whether it was the bamboo T-shirts that we came out or the custom cotton sew T-shirts that we came out, or the poly blend T-shirts that we came out. Whatever we came out with, I wanted it to be, this is a badass t shirt. And we saw what the effect of that was. So many people were like, these Onnit shirts were my favorite shirt.

JASON: Those bamboo shirts were the most amazing things, except coming out of the dryer. You'd have to dry them forever. But they were amazing. And, the most incredible thing that I think, a decision you made early on, is we made designs, whether it be the chimp or the zombie, or one day as a lion, and just put that on the shirt and didn't put Onnit anywhere on it. And so, the reason I thought that was so genius is because, for me as a customer before I started working here, I was able to emotionally connect with Onnit in a way because it created an identity for it where you didn't need to tell me your damn name. This was Onnit. I thought that was a really cool thing that the brand did.

AUBREY: Yeah. This is a great segue into number four. Winning is when people want to wear your T-shirts. Okay, this speaks to the quality of our shirts, the quality of the designs, getting EV to make those badass designs. But it also speaks to what we stand for. We stand for something again, that's it's an emotion. It's a feeling that you get, that actually putting on that shirt reminds yourself, it's just like why people get tattoos. You get a tattoo that says Truth. Well, you want to be reminded to tell the truth. You get a tattoo that says love. Well, you want to be reminded to open yourself to love. It's not a signifier of masters. You want to be reminded of that. You put on an Onnit shirt, you want to be reminded, I'm going to be on it today, I'm going to strive for that little bit extra. It's an emotional feeling. it's the feeling that someone gets when they put it on. So, many different brands have done that. Well. Nike, really had that strong for a long time, especially in the Jordan heydays. You wore Nike, you felt like you were Mike--

JASON: Or the old Bo Knows shirts. 

AUBREY: Oh, yeah. You felt, "Oh, fuck yeah, I can do anything." If Bo can do anything, I can do anything. That kind of emotional connection, is really--

JASON: Those shirts, I really think that what makes those special is, there's some brands that just reach ubiquity, where people are wearing their logo and not even thinking about it, because their shirts are just sold everywhere, right? But with most shirts, when you put them on, you're putting them on consciously because there's something on it that you're representing today. And that's what I thought that was really special and attracted me to the brand is people were wearing that, or even getting tattoos as some of those pictures, because they wanted to represent that. And I thought that signified an emotional connection that certainly had never been done in the supplement space. There is no other supplement company where people are getting tattoos, or even wearing the shirts regularly. But to do it in graphical form, was different.

AUBREY: Yeah. And the other thing besides... And I love seeing and still to this day, you go through an airport, you go through a different city, I'll see someone with an Onnit shirt, and I'll always, I'll across the street, I'll come out and be like, "Hey, nice shirt." 

JASON: To see what they say?

AUBREY: Yeah, sometimes they recognize me, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they take a minute. "Oh, thanks, man. Oh, shit!" It's always like a cool moment. But, I love seeing that. And I love knowing that, the brand still means that much, and still matters to people. Then internally too, I mean, we don't have any dress code. We don't tell people to wear Onnit stuff outside of the coaches in the gym who wear their coach attire, which we're not even that strict about that either. [inaudible 01:17:24] is in there with short shorts and no shirt on all the time. But he's kind of our mascot in many ways in the gym. But, ultimately, so many people internally rocking Onnit gear, rocking Onnit shirts, like proud. Proud to work here. And that goes to our entire internal culture of, we really stand for what we pretend we stand for. Because if there was any of that dissonance, nobody wants to rock our shirt unless they have to rock our shirt. It's not, "Oh, that's the place I get my salary from. I'm just wearing this shirt because it was free," said no one. You know what I mean? You wear the shirt because you like what it represents. It means something to you.

JASON: Yeah. And you want other people to see that. It's funny, internally, one of the best benefits we can give away is more boost. Boost is our internal system to get Onnit stuff. And people want that more than gift cards. Which is cool. 

AUBREY: For sure. Yeah, getting access to our own stuff, which then makes them more excited and more... It's just this virtuous cycle. 

JASON: And it's a place where... You created this for yourself, but then it allowed others to blend their personal and professional life. And, that's something I think people are seeking out more now is not only where I work do I want it to have meaning, but also, why not have your work be an enhancement to your personal life as opposed to a detraction from it?

AUBREY: Yeah, 100%. All right. Rule number four, winning is when people want to wear your T-shirts. Number five, this is a big one. Thou shalt not escape the law of reciprocity. This is like, if we're talking about core principle here for Onnit, it's respecting the law of reciprocity. And this is an old deep law, as deep as the universe itself. In the Quechua language, which is one of the medicine languages from Peru, that, a lot of the indigenous people speak and the shamans and the ayahuasceros, and the different people in the spiritual realms, they talk about it. The word for it is [inaudible 01:19:35]. They feel it in the fabric of everything, this feeling of reciprocity. And it's something that's deeply, deeply ingrained both in our psyche and in the collective. And if you get out of line to that, it's going to create dissonance in your whole organism. 

So, when people talk about, how it feels to have a company that's successful, and maybe they have some issues around money, or anything like that it, it feels... They project some funniness about wealth and different things. The thing that actually makes it easy for me is to know that in every product we sell, I absolutely, unequivocally trust, that we are running a positive account balance in the bank of reciprocity. That we are giving them something equal or greater to what they're giving us in their money, in their energy, in their attention. If it's just attention, it's something free, that the words that we write are worth their attention. If it's a post we make the, video, or whatever clip we post is worth their attention. If we ask for their email, then the emails are worth their attention. If we ask them to buy a product, the product is worth their investment. And not only that, but try to actually build the account balance, give them more, so then they're going to naturally feel that reciprocity. 

And that can be of course, product quality. But it's also something that was revolutionary at the time, it was our return policy. Our return policy, I understood that everybody was playing games, where they're saying, oh, yeah, you can return your product, you just have to cut out the exact shipping label that got shipped on the box that you for sure threw away, and then your receipt, and then fill out this form and a quick 10-page survey about why you didn't like it.

JASON: Bronze the bottle.

AUBREY: Yeah, exactly. Submit that with a wax seal, so it's not tampered with. And then we'll go to our returns department and within 90 days, we will issue you a refund.

JASON: Flip a coin.

AUBREY: Yeah, that was the game, right? And then they would advertise 100% money back guarantee. I knew that was bullshit. And so, I was like, no, no, we're not going to do that. If someone doesn't like it, they just tell us they didn't like it, they can keep the product. That was all for all the entry level supplements, all the 30 counts. They didn't like it, they just let us know. And we'll give you your money back. And people were like, huh, what? That doesn't make any sense. People are just going to get the product, pretend they--

JASON: Everybody is going to scam you.

AUBREY: And you know what, we had a couple of people who did, but we didn't even notice. Our return numbers were far below industry average. And because that act of trust, that act of... It created this virtuous cycle, created a positive account balance in reciprocity. Because that one person, say they buy five Onnit things, and they don't like this one, for whatever reason just doesn't suit them. Maybe the flavor they don't like, whatever they don't like. When they return it and it's that easy, they hit up customer service, "Hey, I didn't like this." "Okay, cool. we'll refund you your money." They're like, it was that easy? Right, done. And then when they're looking to shop at Onnit, they're like, yeah, I'll try that new thing, I'll try this new thing, I'll try this new thing. Because they know that if they don't like it, we're going to make it easy. And so it keeps this virtuous cycle going in a really productive way. That was a game changer.

JASON: I think, reciprocity, the reason that I think we can brag about it here is because that virtue holds true when no one's looking. And so, a lot of times, there are companies that do a relatively good job with their customers in reciprocity, but not so much with their contract manufacturers, or an angry employee, or there's someone calling bullshit over here. I can say, through my entire time here, we've always given more to the people that were upset with us, angry, whatever it might have been, always over delivered on our promises. And on any tug of war, we always gave up the rope. We always did. And it was because of well, because of a couple of things. 

Number one was that we want to maintain that positive balance in all of our relationships, regardless of what they are, what level they are. But then number two, it helped us stay focused on the bigger goal, and that bigger more altruistic goal of for the good of all, right? And reciprocity is just a smaller part of that taller virtue.

AUBREY: Yeah, yeah. And I think even in the severance, we've been as generous as anybody I've ever known with severances. And that doesn't make a lot of sense if you're looking from like a pure HR, completely business minded perspective. Like, give them the severance that was promised or the average. But they're not accounting for what that act of reciprocity might do, what giving them more on their severance might actually do when they're talking about this company to somebody who's then an interesting person, or they know somebody, and they're like, yeah, they still have that positive feeling of you know what, it didn't work out with Onnit but they always did right by me. They always did right by me. And you just never know, you never know what's going to put out, but really just trusting that as you push that out, it's going to come back.

JASON: We've talked about this a lot, but I look at reciprocity as like it's like karma in reverse, right? Karma gets into that woo woo, you put it out in the world, and it comes back to you. But I actually don't look at it like that. I think that if you are doing right by people, that just becomes very, almost predictably circular. Because you have interactions coming from all directions, and those people are having interactions in all directions. And so, when your back is turned, you should hope people are doing right by you and talking right about you. But they're only going to do that if you're doing right by them. But it becomes exponential in nature with every interaction that you have.

AUBREY: Yeah, that's the key element to it is to just, don't even worry about the result. If you start worrying about the result, it's a strategy. And the strategy actually diminishes the thing, but do it because it's right, and just trust the law itself. Like allow yourself to go... To just allow that to be the mystery, and push that out. Now, it doesn't mean to be ridiculous. You have to be sensible as well, and honor your own reciprocity. Because if you give too much, you will be demanding too much from someone else. This is the thing that when I have negotiations with an employee, when they ask for a lot, and I know that it's pulling a lot out of me, then I always say, you understand that if I give you this, what your expectations are for delivery, so that you maintain the reciprocity, to me that's virtuous. Otherwise, I'm going to be... And this isn't going to work. 

JASON: We can't get into a parasitical relationship, right? Because that is not reciprocity. 

AUBREY: Yeah. I mean, I can think of my right hand now, in my own small little enterprise that I have going on outside of Onnit is Ian. He's my right hand guy. And, he asked for a big raise. And I was like, "Ian, you understand that at this salary, my expectations of what you're going to deliver have jumped astronomically. And there's going to be aspects of what I'm asking you to do that won't be fun. You're not going to like it all the time. And I love you, and we're going to keep this thing as healthy as possible." But that this level, this carries this, for me to feel in right relation of reciprocity. And he was like, "Yep." And we went on a little walk today, and he was like, "Yeah, man, every word you said was true." He knows that he's earning this, I know that he's earning it. And so everything is right. But if I just gave it to him, and then he wasn't delivering, well, that's when you get in a situation where I'm going to let him go. So that didn't serve him, doesn't serve anything. You have to be mindful of your own reciprocity. If you give too much yourself, you're going to be asking for too much innately from somebody else.

JASON: And, we've talked about this too, those people that try and win every interaction, how fucking exhausting that has to be in their life. Because they're not benefiting from that karma that they could have where the universe starts working for you. So, they have to win every time, every day. And it's so much easier having the universe on your side and just allowing some of the wins to come to you. Not needing to win every one of those interactions. You talk about somebody like Ian though, and when you have that somebody that does care about reciprocity, he's heard that message, and I've seen that guy grind more than anybody else in this place. And, so, he takes that to heart and levels up because of it, and that benefits him long term.

AUBREY: And you were someone that really trusted that as well. In all of our time together, you've never come asking for a raise. You've always trust, I'm going to do my thing. And that's not only trusting reciprocity, but it's trusting me to be able to witness what's happening. And, sometimes actually, other people had to remind me, because I wasn't able to see exactly what you were doing. So, I was blind, so I wasn't able to receive it. But then when they brought it to my attention, my awareness settled in. And I was like, "You're right. This is in right accord with the reciprocity cycle. And so it was always easy, and you never had to push that. 

Now, I'm not saying that if you're in a position where you feel like you deserve more that you shouldn't voice your opinion, because people can be blind. Even me, who's very aware of reciprocity and tries to be as observant as possible. I'm still going to miss stuff, I'm still going to be like, "Oh, shit, you're still making this much?" I remember those days, I'd have to scan over and be like, does this all feel right? We'd have those discussions. Like, does this all this feel, right? 

JASON: Yeah, we did.

AUBREY: And like, well, actually, maybe over here doesn't feel so right. And you're like, okay, yeah, you're right. Let's give a raise there.

JASON: And both examples are right. What Ian did, what I did, they're both right. But as long as the other person is coming from a place of reciprocity themselves. But no one escapes reciprocity. That law of reciprocity is a law for a reason. And so, you get to choose the direction that you go. But if you're going to be an entrepreneur, you better trust in reciprocity, you better value relationships. Because they will bail you out more times than you realize.

AUBREY: No doubt, no doubt. This one is also somewhat related. So, the greater the purpose, the lower the paychecks. And this is something that sounds very pragmatic, and I just kind of framed it that way so it's stuck in people's minds. But, the idea is basically, if you're doing something in a place that people don't believe in, and you're not abiding by any, higher principles, you're not giving people a sense of pride, a sense of ownership, a sense of contributing to a mission greater than themselves, if you're not giving them any of that, well, what is their take? Their take is going to be purely financial. It's going to be, how much money I make. And then the moment someone else gives them a better offer, they're going to fuckin take it. And even if someone gives them a worse offer, but more purpose, they're going to take it. So, if you actually, from a very practical standpoint, want to keep your payroll lower, offer an amazing purpose. Give people a real sense of purpose.

JASON: This is well positioned, because this is just a pragmatic version of reciprocity, right? Everything is an exchange of value. And that value sometimes is passion, purpose, meaning, and a lot of people get that here. And, if you can create a working environment where the people genuinely appreciate not only the goals of the company, but the people that are here, if there's a healthy working environment, full of positive people, that in itself provides value that you don't have to offset with pay. We were talking about this recently that when COVID hit and everybody went to work from home, that the pay expectation started going up. And it was specifically because people weren't getting the value of being here, and around all the people and being next to the gym, and all the beautiful stuff that's here.

AUBREY: Yeah, and that's an interesting one. People take a moment to recognize that. Part of what gave people the innate satisfaction and feeling of contributing to something greater was they were connected to the organism through the office, through the energy of everything that was going on here. And when we removed them, because of what we had to do for the work requirements, we removed them from this central hub, all of a sudden, they felt less purpose. And they asked for more money. So, it's the perfect example of--

JASON: And I bet you're going to see that all over the country. I'm sure there's going to be studies done on it, because we've never had an opportunity to measure reciprocity, and measure passion and purpose in the workplace. This will provide that opportunity.

AUBREY: Yeah. Maybe if you're in a toxic workplace, people will actually demand less. 

JASON: It could be. 

AUBREY: Some people will be like, "Thank God, I don't have to be around all of the assholes." 

JASON: When I think about the people that I've hired here, and you hiring me, a lot of it came from the fact that I was looking for that in my life at the time. I didn't want to just spend 80 hours a week doing something that was fine. I wanted to do something that mattered, this mattered. At least it mattered to me.

AUBREY: Yeah, no doubt. That makes a huge difference. All right, the next three rules we have, next three tenants all have to relate to hiring. So, this will be good. This will be like a little module in this podcast here all about hiring. All right, number seven, hire people who do what you do too. And this is something I'm always harping on people for, because one of the things that everybody who's an entrepreneur does is they hire the gaps. And it's important to hire the gaps. Hire the people who do what you don't do. Essential, obvious, right? But a place that a lot of people run into trouble is they don't create redundancy in themselves. So then they are beholden, they are a slave to continue to do that at all times with no substitute. You want to take a vacation, what you do, then the whole fucking thing is going to come back in various states of disrepair. And that was exactly the way it was at the beginning. 

There wasn't enough people to do what I did. And ultimately, some of what I did was very finesse, and it couldn't be written in a job description. Until you really stepped into that role, things would happen. There'd be drama amongst employees that no one could resolve. Some strange thing would happen, like what happened? So, I'd always brace when I was coming back from a trip, or going to do ayahuasca or whatever, I'd come back, "Alright, where are the fires, what's going on?" Because I was essential to too many things. And then, as you kind of stepped in, you were able to do all of the minutia in the way that I was... And maybe not exactly the same, but in your own way, solve the problems that I would solve in a similar but unique way to yourself. And that was where I really found freedom. 

That's where I stepped into freedom as an entrepreneur is when I had somebody that yeah, sure, I could still... Sometimes there was a delta between what I could offer and what you would offer, and it was like, no, no, it's important for me to do this. And it's important for me to... And there's always some exclusive things, but I wasn't, beholden to do those every single time no matter what, because there's people who could do what I did. And that actually started even earlier than you. It started with my marketing responsibilities, because this was where I was actually really strong. I hired a chief marketing officer who had a different style, but was also very good, and brought him in, even though I could do a lot of what he was able to do. Having him do that and me just being able to kind of guide and add my pieces, huge.

JASON: Yeah, a couple of thoughts about that. Because, first, I have to say, there is no compliment that you ever gave me that felt better than the second trip you took after I started, you came back and you said to me, specifically, you said, "I'm starting to feel so much better coming back from trips." And it was just something really simple. But I could tell before that would just probably grate on you the night before. I don't know what I'm walking into tomorrow.

AUBREY: Not only the night before, the week before I left, when I arrived. Oh, I'm in this beautiful place on this... Fuck, I wonder what's happening back at home. I'm going to turn my phone off.

JASON: Just thinking about firefighters, and babies getting tossed from windows.

AUBREY: Exactly.

JASON: That felt really good. But you mentioned hiring a CMO. Again, that was like a really brave decision, because that is where you were strongest. And so, most people would have hired that position last. You actually hired that position, either first or second, one of the very early people because you needed redundancy, because that was the position of strength for the business. And so, you had to do that. Now, that CMO, brilliant at what he did, but he wasn't... He couldn't do everything you did. He was good at the marketing part, but he wasn't the inspirational leader type. And so, you did have to over time, replace yourself a bit in pieces, right? Because nobody was going to uniquely be you.

AUBREY: No doubt. And some pieces will never be replaced. And that's just the essence of me as a being articulated in this world, right? Like my signature flavor, what I can offer, that is unique to me. But all of the different functions have been replaced to such a standpoint. I mean, shit, I got a book deadline coming up, and I feel really good even though... Obviously, a lot of my roles have been distributed, we've talked about that. But I know that I can take three months away if I need to, and I just need to... This is really, I gotta lock myself away, I got to do this. Or maybe I have a spiritual calling to go traverse through Bhutan or someplace like that. I don't know, but if I did, I feel like I'm comfortable there. 

And honestly, if we're being forthright, there's one area that we haven't accomplished that and that's in the ideation and product side, where I'm still an essential role. And our conversations are like, okay, how do we find that other person? Kyle was that person for a while. He's transitioned off to do his own thing. Great for him. But finding that other piece. So, I'm still going to be able to offer my magic, but we're not dependent on it in any way.

JASON: But even the last time we talked, you said, we gotta find that person. So, you were still in that vein of thought is that we still are missing that piece. And I think that's a really smart thing that you did, because I think that's going to be a struggle for most entrepreneurs, is understanding, even being willing to back up, and then understanding how. That's something that you started doing kind of from the beginning. And it wasn't necessarily to replace yourself, but to create that redundancy, and also create those checks and balances that we were talking about before. It had multiple benefits to it.

AUBREY: And it's not just for you. It's for your other people, too, because this goes to number eight, which is, choose a hole over an asshole. This is a huge one. I didn't come up with it, but I heard it once. And so, whoever originally came up with this turn of phrase--

JASON: Genius. 

AUBREY: Genius, because it's absolutely true. But the problem, why you will stick with an asshole is because they're not redundant. All of the assholes that we've allowed to continue on longer than their tenure, once we realize they were an asshole but we're like, we've got to keep them, it's because they had leverage. And what is their leverage? It's a lack of redundancy. They were doing something unique that we hadn't had redundancy in. And so, they knew they had that leverage. And sometimes they protected that leverage, but they knew they had that leverage, and they stayed longer than we would have wanted them to, because we didn't have that redundancy. And so it can put you in these deleveraged positions where you're stuck with an asshole. 

JASON: I would encourage people if they see somebody leveraging the fact that they're not redundant, you gotta let that person go as quick as possible. Because if they're doing that, they're doing that for a reason. And usually, it's to cover up a gap that you just don't know exists. And I always say, similar to choose a hole instead of an asshole is, we're all pieces to the puzzle. But talented pieces only are helpful if they actually fit. And so if they don't fit into the puzzle, but they're still talented, they don't get to be part of the puzzle. 

AUBREY: Yeah, that's key. And even in these positions, we looked back at these positions where we had a distorted view of the lack of leverage that we had. We thought that they were doing more and it was more impossible than it really was. Because finally, when we just couldn't take it anymore, and we'd let them go, or it got uncomfortable enough where they left, all of a sudden, it was like, "Oh, actually, we were kind of fine the whole time."

JASON: Or in one case, it actually exposed that we had more problems there than we even realized. 

AUBREY: Right, it was this false sense of authority. And, if anybody is trying to hide things or kind of create, I know things that you can't even ever know, and it's from my years of experience, and blah, blah, blah, be weary.

JASON: Raise an eyebrow.

AUBREY: Be really, really wary. That is a very dangerous sign. People who are confident, they're teaching, they're open sourcing, they're allowing people to have full visibility into what they do, because they trust how good they are. They really do.

JASON: Yeah. It also goes to like a broader term of scarcity mindset, because those abundant thinkers are the ones that you want, because they're creating redundancies for themselves, they're an open book, like you said they're teaching. But the people that have a scarcity mindset hold things close, and that's not good for the business anyway. 

AUBREY: No, no, that's not going to work long term. So if you feel that, live with your hole.

JASON: Yes, it'll be fine.

AUBREY: It'll be fine. It'll work. If you make the cut, wield the axe. This is a Ned Stark, season one "Game of Thrones" type of thing. He teaches that lesson early on to Robb. He sentences someone to death, and they've got executioner's in the North, they got executioners in Winterfell, but they don't use them. Because ultimately that decision comes down to the king, or whatever, the Lord of the North, I should probably know the name. I've watched seven fucking seasons of that, or eight, nine, whatever he was.

JASON: I don't know, he died pretty quick.

AUBREY: But, it's a really valuable lesson. If it's your decision to make, you be the one to do it. It takes some courage, and it's not comfortable. I've never gone into one of those, like, oh, yay. Not once. 

JASON: Yeah, well, two big lessons that are applicable to what happened here. Number one, like you said, if you're going to make the decision, you have to live with the consequence, it is just part of the deal. But the other thing is, there's some messages that only you can send. And in the many terminations that we've had to do through the years, I don't mean many, like we've done more than anybody else. I mean, just in any business they happen. And in all the ones that I sat in as the witness while you did, every one of them ended with a hug. It's because you were sending a message of reciprocity in a way of love. And just because this didn't work out, doesn't make you any less valuable as a person. It just didn't fit. And I think, hearing that message from random HR director doesn't mean shit. It just means you don't get a paycheck.

AUBREY: Yeah, and then everybody's absolving themselves of responsibility. Well, it's not my decision, it was it was somebody else. And then they have this enmity and this inability to even express themselves to this mythical figure, this overlord who's making these decisions. "Well, you know..." And of course the HR director's going to say it, because it's not their job to decide who's hired or not hired, so they have no culpability, and they're like... And then that person can't really say anything to them other than voice frustration that they hope is going to carry on. And it just creates this enmity that's not real. But when you sit down, and I always... One thing I always did, it would be easy to remove yourself, put up a shield, and get like really blocked off. We have the ability to block ourselves off emotionally. 

But I wouldn't do that. I would take a moment. They would sit down. They would usually know, because they would have our HR director, and it would have you there as our COO in the room. But I would take a moment, I'd look them right in the eye, and I would feel what they're feeling, and there's some anxiety and some discomfort, and I breathe with them for a second. And I'd allow that to set in. I wouldn't waste any time. It was right out of the gate, like, our journey's coming to a close. And sometimes there was explanations that were helpful, but then always an opportunity for me to receive anything they had to say. And just me offering that to them, and being there to receive, and hear them, and then talk to them. And man, sometimes those were tough. I mean, sometimes when it turns into tears, you see a grown man that you admire, who's a good man or a good woman, in all of those different ways. And you see them break down and you understand, you understand what they're feeling, but you're there and you say... 

I always would focus on what was great about them, and also let them know, if there was some reason that they didn't understand, I would, of course, generously explain that. But it's, like, you're great. It's just this isn't the right place for you. Maybe this is, or maybe this is, but you know what, no matter what, we appreciate your time here, and we're grateful for it. And you can always count on us as an ally.

JASON: Well, I have to say, the fact that you always did start with that, it just got it out of the way. And then we could get to the actual conversation that we need to have there. There's nothing more uncomfortable than hearing somebody build up to the termination over a long period of time. But the thing that I found fascinating when I came here, because I spent 16, 17 years in the hotel business, when I had let people go, the reason that they would break down is because they lost a job and they had to pay rent. One thing I noticed right away, when we had those conversations here, it was much more because people felt like they were losing their family. Because they had so many connections and so many personal things. And I thought that was the beautiful thing about this. But, it also changed the dynamic of what you were telling them, because they weren't losing their family, and you wanted to make sure that they knew that as part of this. 

I've heard you say almost every time, you're still part of the family. It's just day to day we need somebody else doing that work, and then go into the specific reasons and be very succinct in what you were telling them. I think that's really the key is, is you can be compassionate, without any bullshit. Just having the ability to have those tough conversations, and that being the toughest one is an absolute mandatory role for an entrepreneur.

AUBREY: Yeah. And sometimes, they really deserve to get let go. Like, really deserve it.

JASON: They do some amazing stuff to get...

AUBREY: And even in those situations, having the emotional temperance, and you have a great story, we won't get into those details of someone who... It was at the point where you were making that decision, it wasn't me making the decision. You were involved in the hiring, and so, as you became more intricate in the hiring, and I was relying on you to make the decisions, you naturally would take these conversations more than me. But ultimately, even in those really, really tough ones, your emotional temperance of still weaving those conversations to a hug at the end of the day, even in gross violations of ethics and law, there's something to be said for that. To know, this is the boundary, this is what needs to happen. There's no severance, actually, the severance is coming back the other way. But nonetheless, we do this and it's all love, and it's still holding that kind of Divine Father energy, not the immature warrior that's like, you hurt me, I hurt you back.

JASON: Yeah, when I think of our relationship, I think that is one of the harder things for an entrepreneur to find is, somebody that they feel embodies the heart of the business. Because it's not the easiest thing to find, because you have to find somebody that genuinely cares about it, close to, if not as much as you do. And if you find that, that's something that people should grow, they should work with and try to develop, because that's harder to find than the person that can design the business the same, or even can think the same way. Somebody that can embody the ethos or the soul of the business is not going to be the easiest thing to find.

AUBREY: Yeah. What would you say? We're wrapping up this soul segment on employees. There's been a lot of tough calls where it's a tough decision. And we've sat down, and we've had to have long talks, like, "Fuck, what do we do about this person?" What do we do about this person? Do you have any guidance for those kind of 50/50 balls where you want to give someone a chance, but they're showing different signs? They're clearly not an asshole, they're not using leverage, but they got these... What are those kinds of... What's your guidance for those 50/50 calls?

JASON: Yeah, that's a good one. I will say, we had a couple of 50/50 calls, they were big 50/50 calls. Like, we had one where the person's talent was out of this world, but also their rampages were out of this world as well. That was a big toss up that had a big effect on the business. And there, we worked out a way to actually give that person a business and let them go off on their own, because it almost felt like that was what they were crying out for. I thought that was a very unique way to get into a situation like that. 

We also had a situation where a guy that for years, I considered to be my best friend was a 50/50 call. It was one of those things where the business grows, and you go from being a generalist to needing specialists, and we weren't finding the natural fit. And, we tried a bunch of different ways. Then I worked with him to find out exactly what he was interested in, and then found a clear path where he could get to something that gave him the opportunity to excel personally. This company we've done that over and over and over again. Even look at that CMO running his own company, we've been able to replicate that story. But you can only do that if you really fucking care about people. Because it did take extra work in each one of those. Just off the top of my head, I think I can give three more examples of us doing that, where we actually helped people be on a path where they weren't an employee anymore. So, we took away the problem. But we gave them the opportunity to not only stay part of the family, but to grow something themselves. That's an unusual thing. I'm not sure if that's exactly advice, but we were able to replicate it. So I know it's a real thing and replicable.

AUBREY: Yeah. So, it's kind of thinking out, it's not A or B, but sometimes there's a C. Sometimes there's a way that you can create a tenable situation. And I think, really, ultimately what we're saying is, when you know you've done your best and when it's close like that, and you've exhausted the possibilities, you've really looked at it, you'll really kind of know. You'll know when you've given it all the tries that it makes sense. When it's close like that, it's just good to know, It's good to know like, man, we did our best. We really tried to figure this out.

JASON: In all relationships, I think that... It's advice I give all the time is, the moment you feel like, from that reciprocal aspect of the relationship, you say I've exhausted my options there, you can feel okay taking that out. Because you have to. Because it's the last of the options. But if you go to that... I disagree a bit with that hire slow fire quick mentality. I think it is mitigate quick, but not necessarily fire quick, because there are more options than just fire.

AUBREY: Right, right. Yeah. I think that's good advice. All right, don't let cash flow kill you. We almost died. We almost died on the cash flow sword. 

JASON: The good times don't roll forever.

AUBREY: That's right. That's right. They don't. That's another thing. I think we talked about it in another section. But you said it pretty clear. Don't let the good times roll so much get high on your own ease of the way that things are going to go. And ultimately, what precipitated this ultimate cashflow crisis we got in was a series of different events. We had this massive construction project because we thought we were going to keep expanding employees at this exponential level. We were going to make this showpiece office for a million dollars.

JASON: That was just going to be for the marketing and tech department, a 10,000 square foot space. It's madness.

AUBREY: I know, that was madness. And it was in such abundance mindset that we weren't managing the cash flow, and then we had a distribution of all our funds because we thought there was going to be an injection of capital, and then all of these. And there was a natural slowdown in the business and this convergence of everything that happened all at the same time. And it was so severe that our CFO at the time, he said, "You guys are going to be out of money by February 21, and I'm out."

JASON: And he quit. He walked out that day. The CFO, that son of a bitch. He just said, "Good luck to you."

AUBREY: No two weeks’ notice.

JASON: No, quit that day. He was just like, I just don't think I can do it. He's like, I didn't sign up for this. Yes, you did. That's literally the job. The son of a bitch. And I remember, man, it's so awesome to laugh about it now. Because that got dark, man. I mean, I didn't have anything I would describe as anxiety until then. And I remember, I started... I was having to make choices about what bills to pay. And I was doing AP every single day, because we were just getting enough money just to pay a couple of people, and just keep everybody off our ass, keep our suppliers supplying us product. And, I remember one day, I wasn't even at work. I was out walking my dog. And all of a sudden, I was like, "Man, I'm having trouble breathing." And then I looked around, I was like, "Oh, no, I'm really having trouble." And then I was like, "I'm going to die." And I didn't think about it until afterwards. But I was having a full blown panic attack, even though I had nothing about... Panic about that. It was just the stress of everything had overwhelmed me. So, here I'm sitting with a fucking chihuahua in my lap, in the middle of my driveway. And just calming myself down. I realized, man, this is scary. And I don't ever want to feel this again, and I'm never going to. 

I think of all these lessons, we can go through these and we can feel like we're really smart. But every one of the things that we're talking about, I've learned the hard way. And that one I learned the hardest. And so now, I've become really good at cash flow management now. I think, like, very effective in how we use cash and really good at business fundamentals. And I don't think I would have learned that without getting just gobsmacked in the face by that time. And it went on for months. And it got a little better and a little better and a little bit better. But I was doing some wild stuff like. I'm not even sure I can say that. But we're trying to find somebody give us a mortgage on our house on Fletcher. And it was hard to do because we were an LLC at the time. So you just find a guy.

AUBREY: Yeah. So, for that context, the level that we're... Here's the thing. We wanted to make sure we could always pay our employees. So, that was first, and we never missed a pay day for the employees. Didn't have to delay. And you've heard of companies that have had to go that deep, and just not pay people for a while. And that's really, really tough. So we managed to avoid that. But we had to use everything that we absolutely possibly could. And one of these things was, we acquired a house that all of our VIPs could go to, our employees could stay at, we could do shoots at, and we acquired this house. But because we acquired it as an LLC, and we bought it cash, we couldn't get a mortgage. So, we had to get a dude who would give us money with that. Just a regular contract, not a mortgage, but just like okay, if you don't pay me back, I get to keep this house.

JASON: We're going to quitclaim deed the house to him.

AUBREY: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, we had to go to all of them and we're like, oh, sweet, we were able to do that. That's 200 grand. That means we can pay off some of these three months overdue bills to our suppliers. And because of the goodwill, this was again, where we had to take a massive withdrawal on reciprocity. Because we'd done right by all of our suppliers, and all of our people, when we were in this position, we're like, hey, we're in a tough fucking spot. We need to extend this net 30 to net 90. And if it's net 90, we still may be a little bit later, maybe net 150. We're doing our fucking best though. And because we'd acted in the way we had before, everybody kind of... I mean, I'm sure there was some onary people, but everybody made enough space for us to get our footing back again.

JASON: Yeah, yeah. And it did work out, and people were good to us. We had to make a lot of spending cuts internally, and we just got really much smarter about the business--

AUBREY: Stopped construction entirely on that other place, and never actually picked that back up. And honestly, this was a convergence with an incredibly critical emotional crisis for me. So, I mean, I was here as much as I could be here, but I was devastated myself and my own personal life. So, really, this was on you. 

JASON: It was a dark time for all of us.

AUBREY: This is like, you really had to help battle... And then myself, that was the first time I had to reconcile with the fact oh, Onnit may go away. I mean, CFO told us that it would. We didn't ever really believe him.

JASON: I never believed him. It was going to be close.

AUBREY: But it was enough that I had to... Ultimately, it was like one of those near death. Not the full NDE, where we were actually dead and revived. But it was close enough where you have to deal with your own mortality, and understand what a tragedy would be if Onnit disappeared, and all of that went away, and what a loss that would be to myself personally, all of us, the community, the employees and the world. We would no longer be able to offer what we were offering to the world. It would go so deep. The ripples of that crash would be immense. And really dealing with that, and then personally coming out and being, it'll be okay, no matter what, we'll still continue to fight for the good of all in whatever way. And if the universe takes this, it takes it. And getting to that place was also happening as this whole thing was going. It was like, no way, this was our big plant medicine ceremony with no plants. The trees that created the cash, that created the crisis.

JASON: Yeah, I can honestly say, at no point did I think that we weren't going to succeed, but I just knew that I was going to eat shit a lot for a long time, right? And, knowing that we were going to go into record this, I actually went back and looked at that email that the CFO sent, and looked at the graph. The graph is so ominous. It shows us running out of money on February 21, I'll never forget it. And the email is just, here's all the things you have to do. You clearly don't want to do them. It was just like one of those emails. So, I told you this separately, but on February 21 when we were still standing, I sent him a text message and said, "Still here." That's the last time I talked to him. And that felt pretty good. I mean, it was very much a phoenix rising from the ash, soaring.

AUBREY: We were so much better from that.

JASON: So much better. It was the best thing that could've happened.

AUBREY: We wouldn't be where we are now without that. Another one of those things. This is the classic stoic philosophy of the obstacles way, that challenge will create the adaptation that was necessary. We were heading towards some kind of cashflow crisis because of our own attitude, and because of the way that we were running things, with such radical abundance mindset that we weren't tight on everything. We were going to head to that eventually anyways. The fact that we got that and survived, it made us... Put us in the position where we could sit where we are right now.

JASON: I always now think about, what's my war chest? Like what my levers are. I always have them in mind. Then every big purchase, I weigh it against a forecast and things that before, it was just like, we're doing great, we're going to do better tomorrow, let's go. Because things were like that for a long time. And that actually is the biggest danger, and anybody listening to this should take that. If it feels like things are just amazing, watch out.

AUBREY: Yeah, and start with the big levers. That's another thing there. Start with the big things. If we switch out the toilet paper, we could save this much in our office. That doesn't fucking matter. 

JASON: Doesn't matter.

AUBREY: Those are the easy things. I actually watched a documentary recently, "Seaspiracy", and it talks about the plastic in the ocean, and one of the many problems that's going on in the ocean. But there's so much energy about straws. Straws, right? And straws comprise in his statistic that he gave in the documentary, 0.03% of the plastic that's in the ocean. And he's like, it's important to care about straws. Straws can get stuck in things. And there's a viral video of a straw getting stuck in a sea turtle's nose. For sure, be mindful of straws. However, are we really talking about the problem because over 50% of everything in there, like 45% is discarded fishing nets. And this other part is other fishing gear--

JASON: The straws are a feel-good solution. 

AUBREY: Exactly. Straws are something that's easy that we can say, "Ah, well, we're only running half of our lights in the office." That doesn't fucking matter. What are your costs? Go to your suppliers, cost of goods, what is going on? But not willing to sacrifice the intangibles, but hey, just having those tough conversations. Hey, we need to do better. Keep everything the same, but we need to do better on the price. And we have this bloated department over here. We have four people. We don't maybe need four people to do this job. It's another thing you say all the time. It's the same amount of people do the same job. 

JASON: Yeah, one man one job, two men half job. Yeah, that's what turns out--

AUBREY: Exactly. And we had those situations too. So, there was like a lot of like big places where we could look. And if you're in that situation, look in the big places first. And, look, environmentally, after watching that documentary, we got to take... We're caring about the ocean. We've got to take a good hard look at our fishing practices, because that's a big part of what's going on there. Look at that, because it's a major, major lever that we can start to affect. And it's the same thing with a company. 

JASON: That's right. That's right. And the other thing to look at is, I guess, analogy for fishing is how are you generating revenue? Because that's another lever is what your intake is too. 

AUBREY: You can outearn your way out of that. 

JASON: And the efficiency of your intake. 

AUBREY: Yeah, that's big. And another way that you can get fucked up is if all of your revenue is coming through wholesale channels who are paying you on net 30, net 60, net 90, net 120, maybe we won't pay you at all. Which is certainly a situation that a lot of the big players in the industry will get, oh, there's this technicality missing, and they're six months late. 

JASON: They gamify it. Yeah, they make money on the float. 

AUBREY: Yeah. So be really mindful. That's the beautiful thing about direct to consumer is the money comes in immediately. That's how the business started. I actually borrowed. I really borrowed pills for Alpha Brain and sold them before I had to pay. 

JASON: Before you had to pay, yeah.

AUBREY: That cash flow, getting the cash flow in your favor, rather than opposed to your favor. But if I was selling to fucking Vitamin Shoppe, or GNC or something like that, then I would have borrowed on 30 days, and then I would have got paid on--

JASON: In 60 days or 120 days. 

AUBREY: 120 days or whatever. And then I would have been fucked. That would have been the end, just like that.

JASON: Yeah, you would have been 60 days dead by the time you got the money.

AUBREY: Exactly. 

JASON: The next one that we're kind of going into it anyway, the check under all the rugs. I think that one's important. I have this analogy I was thinking about last night, is hotel business, 16 years. Big hotel, 500 rooms, he'd always have plumbing problems, because you had sprinklers, plumbing, everything. And when the plumbing failed in a top floor, it was definitely going to hit all the rooms below it, right? So the thing you do is you go down into the lower floors, and you would go to the wall, and you just you'd poke on the walls. You'd just poke all the way down until you found a soft spot. When you found a soft spot, you didn't just leave it there and hope it dried, poke your finger hole and do that, because then somebody would have to fucking fix it. If you saw a sheet and it had a little grip, you'd grab it and you rip it because otherwise the housekeeper would just put it right back on the bed, right? But he or she can't if you rip it. 

And so, that's what I feel like you have to do, when you're checking under those rugs. And what you're doing as a founder or a CEO, is you’re the ultimate check and balance for... in that case, the maintenance or the housekeeping team. In our case, whether it's your affiliate or your marketing team, you need to be always going around checking under the rugs, poking the walls. Because you never know when you're going to find something. And even if you find nothing, everybody always knows you're looking. And it creates this check and balance in reverse. 

AUBREY: Nobody wants to hide things under the rug. 

JASON: That's right, that's right.

AUBREY: Yeah, that's really wise. And for me, I think I got a big lesson in this when... One thing that I just had no interest in looking into was cybersecurity. First of all, I had very little knowledge about it. Second of all, it wasn't what I wanted to look into, so I just kind of was like, we good? Okay, we're good. But I knew, I always knew, I didn't really go down that path. And this was early, we're a young company. I didn't really go down deep enough. And we got stung. We got stung. People accessed some of our data. And there was a deep lesson there of, I had that feeling that I needed to check under that. But I was just intentionally going a little bit blind. There's that rug, I don't know, it looks scary underneath there. I don't really know if I want to look under there. And I didn't look under there. And under there was a monster brewing. And, it was a weakness into the house, into the castle. Like, if you imagine someone digging out of their prison cell from Alcatraz, they were coming up right through that rug.

JASON: El Chapo'd right in.

AUBREY: Yeah, exactly. All they had to do was just pop that rug right off, and then they were right in the house. And ultimately, the response to it, was great. Another one of our tenants. I just went out immediately, even though we didn't know what data was compromised. We just knew that there was access, and no, there's no complaints. I just went out and shared the truth with the audience. And that was a big trust builder for... And I think we talk about that in number 15, be transparent or die. That was a huge trust builder. That was also reciprocity, that was also honesty. "Hey, guys, I'm so sorry." And it was just a letter from me, to all of our customers posts. I'm so sorry, this is what happened.

JASON: I was a customer then. If I remember what you wrote, one of the first lines is, I don't know all the details yet. And so, I thought that was the most transparent part of it is like you're finding this out because I found it out. You're not finding this out after I ran this through our PR team and came up with exactly how I want to position it to you. Because there was that one. And then there was a follow up message to it when you had more information about what data was compromised.

AUBREY: Yeah. And that was huge. That actually, instead of it being a disaster, it was actually like one of the epic moments.

JASON: Early epic moments, yeah. 

AUBREY: Just again, another one of those situations where disaster becomes an opportunity. The crisis is the opportunity. The disaster is your chance to prove your adaptation, and prove what you really stand for.

JASON: Yeah, it's easy to say, but it really is an opportunity. That said, I remember back in the good old days, whenever we got the Aubrey call asking for everybody to come to your office. It was always one of those, "Oh shit." Don't even know what's coming yet, but you come in and in whatever it is, we dealt with it together.

AUBREY: You gotta deal with it. And in those moments, it's important to stand at the helm of the ship with confidence and with this sense of, we're going to be okay. And that energy of the captain in the storm. If you're the captain of the ship in the storm, you can go down to your own room and cry and wail and bang on some pillows, and say all is lost. But when you're standing there and your crew there is looking to you, you better say, we're going to be alright, we're going to be alright. And even in the cashpocalypse, I did my best while I was here to do that. I just wasn't as present as I normally would have been because of my own shitstorm I had going on. I couldn't muster it in that way. But always mindful of here we are. Look everybody in the eye. Show that you're here. And that's really an important thing when all of that...

JASON: Well, you didn't talk too much about it in wield the axe, but there was a day where we had to let several people go. And right after that, you called an all company meeting. You took ownership for it. You named who wasn't here, and said, but it's okay and here's why. And you gave that speech. And even at that point, I think we had like 80 employees. So it wasn't a small number. We were in sports performance, or 10th Planet back then.

AUBREY: Yep. All right, we'll try to pick up some speed here and get through some of these. Number 12, avoid being under the influencer. So really, what I'm trying to express here is that not all influencers are created equal. And I think a lot of people that I see, they will see somebody, and they'll see that they have a big following. And they'll think, oh, man, if I just... If this person's a part of it, it's going to change everything. Maybe, maybe, and it just depends very specifically on what they're known for. So, if you're known as a musician, and you want them to talk about supplements, nobody's going to listen. If you're known as an athlete, and you want them to talk about, I don't fucking know something that's not pertaining to athletics, then that's not the right person, either. And if they don't talk about things authentically, and they get a lot of brand deals that are coming their way, and it's Shaq driving, what is it? A Kia or whatever a car that they pretend that Shaq drives. Maybe he actually has to drive it because he's getting paid, but you know Shaq's not choosing a Kia. You just know it. So if Shaq's talking about Icy Hot, you also know, man, you probably do have back pain, but I don't know if I trust you because you're driving that Kia and I know that's full of shit. For sure. So maybe you use Icy Hot, maybe you don't. I don't even know. You have to be known for that authenticity. So, don't get distracted by the big, bright lights.

JASON: Romanticizing of that, especially as a young company. I hear people all the time when they're... Because people call for either advice, or they're pitching me something. And all the time, I'll hear them say, say, whoever, John Smith, put in an order the other day, and we're going to talk to him about doing whatever. And I was like, who gives a shit? Who gives a shit? It doesn't matter, you can't romanticize that idea. Because influencers are plentiful nowadays. And they only matter if they wield actual influence, they can create actual engagement that turns into actual sales. And that has to be really authentic. And those are few and far between. Rogan was that for us early on, because he really had solid influence. And he really took the products, and he really liked them. 

AUBREY: It's just being mindful that a small influencer that really people trust about that is far more valuable than a big one who's just known for what they do professionally. 

JASON: That's right. Yep. 

AUBREY: Pay attention to the warning shots, number 13.

JASON: Oh, that's an important one. 

AUBREY: It's an important one. So, customer complaints, legal actions, all of these things are little warning shots. Little warning shots that you better take heed on. Somebody finds there's an issue with the sealing of a package. Your bars aren't... Hey, my bars came and the package wasn't sealed, or this thing opened up in shipping or this thing was... Listen to that first one before it becomes 100 of these things that you have to deal with. Or that complaint, like hey, I'm getting headaches, or whatever that is. Treat those as if, not like, it's just the law of large numbers and whatever. Treat everyone like this is a warning shot from the universe. Pay attention. Maybe it's random, but fucking pay attention.

JASON: It's really easy to keep your radar out of tune. And getting in tune with those yellow flags and knowing when to make them red flags is so crucially important. A lot of times you hear things in passing that you gotta tune yours to where you're like, wait a minute, what are you talking about again? And, understanding when something just doesn't... Sounds a little off. And again, that's like poking the wall, right? There's just something a little weird here. And I can't tell you how many times that's happened to me. But I also don't know how many times I've missed it. You almost have to live with a little bit of neuroticism in the sense that there are things going on in your business right now that are fucked up. And if you knew they were happening, you would be really disappointed. And so not that you have to search under rugs OCD style, but you should always be looking under those rugs. And you should always be checking that radar because, and especially, you hit Onnit when really be paying attention to social media and your reviews and all of those things. Anybody that's taking the time to give you that feedback, you should assume that's not the only one in the world. And, it also is the, is the polishing rock of how you're going to increase your...

AUBREY: Yeah, and look, sometimes a warning shot is going to hit. Sometimes you're going to lose some blood on a morning shot. I remember, there's a California specific regulation that we were completely unaware of, and our counsel was completely unaware of for products that we were selling in the state of California. We didn't know, and it drew some blood. Drew some blood, drew a couple of hundred thousand dollars.

JASON: Early on, before we could afford it. 

AUBREY: Yeah, drew a couple of $100,000 worth of blood at a time where that was a lot. But that warning shot caused us to really up level our counsel. Who knows what that saved in the long term, like getting better and better counsel because of that, taking heed of that, like, oh, you missed this one, but all right, you guys are good. What the fuck. This is what you're supposed to be watching. You gotta let us know about these type of things. And with that, so we did lose blood, we did get hit. And we didn't have a warning for that specific thing. But we used that as a warning shot that has protected us from...

JASON: Very well. 

AUBREY: Very well. 

JASON: Yeah, six years later, I still think we probably have one of if not the best and maybe robust quality teams in our industry. And knock on wood, we haven't had any issues since. In fact, we get allotted by third parties, NSF, groups like that for our quality. It all came from that. Because we didn't want to touch that stove ever again.

AUBREY: Yeah, no doubt. Number 14. Kill your darlings. So when I think about that, there's some things that you really love. And we've talked about a couple of them, AM collection, I really love those. I really like the personal care as my favorite body wash and it had the right scent that I've picked out the essential oils. Those were kind of easy ones. Some of them were a little tougher, like the Star Wars and the Marvel kettlebells. Those were dope, and they were iconic too due to a big part of who we are.Of course, the Primal Bells were more iconic. Zombie bells, potentially more. But this was really like a cool moment for us that we were making Iron Man kettlebells, and we were ideating on in Spider Man Battle ropes, we had Darth Vader kettlebells and Boba Fett--

JASON: Communicating daily with Lucas Films and Marvel. Those products genuinely went viral, and got us a lot of earned media. And so, it was very cool. But it wasn't very profitable. 

AUBREY: The deal just didn't make sense. Those big companies, they cut those deals thin. And you really just have to hit a homerun to even hit a single. It's like the fence line is so far away, you gotta just crush it. And there's like 20 people in the infield and outfield. You gotta just smash it, and then you hit a single. Because they know--

JASON: They know the distance.

AUBREY: They know the distance and they want to stretch you, and they'll know that somebody else will step up and stretch.

JASON: And they know their value. 

AUBREY: They do. What makes it worth it to them?

JASON: We went into it to generate sales to generate profitability. But really, we should have just gone into it to generate marketing and known that from the beginning, because there was nothing else.

AUBREY: And when we ran out of the marketing value of it, you never run out, but we were in the long tail of the marketing benefit. It was time to transition and had to let it go.

JASON: And that was tough for a group of people, and I didn't include myself in this, that grew up in the Star Wars Marvel generation that thought it was the coolest thing in the world, and liked the fact that we could associate ourselves with that. But no sacred cows, right? And whether it'd be working with your best friend or working with Marvel, if it's time, it's time to go.

AUBREY: Yeah, you gotta choose that. And even, you gotta get rid of your own personal affectations, for these different things.

JASON: And your own color blindness to it. A lot of times you need other people to tell you. And that's another place that your radar has to go up. See, if you're hearing things that don't comport with what you're seeing, got to check yourself. That was one of those cases.

AUBREY: 100%. And, some people are more attached to these things. For some people, it's harder than others. As a writer, Kill Your Darlings comes from the writing profession, where they're really talking about, you're going to have to delete massive chunks of text. Massive vignettes, massive aspects of a story. Director's the same way who are making those kinds of cuts. This was an amazing scene. I remember there was a scene, some scene in some movie where Antonio Banderas, literally... Not Antonio, who's the other badass... Benicio Del Toro. Benicio Del Toro put out a cigarette in the take on his hand. He put out a cigarette on his hand, as he's looking someone dead in the eye. And he did it for reals. And the director cut it. You know what I mean? That's a darling. That's a darling scene. But he cut it, because it didn't fit. That scene didn't fit with the movie, and the movie was more precious than that little thing. And you can argue that he should have found a way to make it work, because it's so epic. But, ultimately, you have to have the whole pie is more important than the individual ingredient. 

JASON: Yeah, that's right. Yep.

AUBREY: Number 15, be transparent or die. We touched on this. Actually, I didn't get counsel at the time, and again, you weren't here. The counsel that I had was, we don't need to talk about this. You can just sweep this under the rug. You don't need to talk about this. Nobody found out.

JASON: No one's ever going to know.

AUBREY: No one's ever going to know, no one's complaining. If someone complains, then we'll have a different strategy. But what I ultimately realized is that, for one, if that eventually came out, that's a disaster, just pragmatically. Because then we covered it up. And we saw that with so many other people. I don't want to throw anybody under the bus who didn't do it. But I think it was Target or somebody like that that actually got caught. And then finally, acknowledged.

JASON: I think it was, yeah. Even Equifax didn't tell anybody for like four years. 

AUBREY: Yeah. So, those things. Then you find out, then it's irreparable. Because then not only did you make a mistake, an honest mistake, but you covered up the honest mistake. And that's where you're really culpable.

JASON: Trust is fragile. 

AUBREY: And so, that's one thing from just a pragmatic standpoint, but the real thing was, even if that was the case, I would always be holding it. And if I was holding it, and I was holding that guilt, that I didn't share that, some part of me would want to punish myself, and want to punish us for that sin, so to speak. For missing the mark, which is where sin comes from. I would want to punish myself. So, I would create some kind of sabotage or some disaster, to feel like I received the punishment that I deserved, the penance. That's my reciprocity with myself. If I would have withdrawn from the world to support myself, I would have wanted to give back blood. I would want to pay the blood price for that thing. And I know I would have manifested disaster.

JASON: And don't you think it ultimately comes back to... We're going to be talking about in a minute where you treat your partners, or pick your partners like a spouse. Our customer in some ways is, you need to treat with the golden rule. 

AUBREY: Yeah, they're us living a different life. 

JASON: Yes, that's right.

AUBREY: That is you living a different life. Would you want to know? 

JASON: Yes.

AUBREY: Then it's an obvious fucking, obvious. If you really collapse the myth of separation, and get back to that state of inner being, that state of understanding that we're all different facets of the same diamond, and that person is you with a different background and different genetics living a different life, but it's fucking you, it's you. It's not other. It's you. Then what do you do?

JASON: Yeah. And it's kind of, when you get in front of a crowd, when you're still learning how to speak in front of a crowd, and you try and focus on one person as opposed to thinking about talking to a thousand, and you're just having a thousand individual conversations. It's the same way with that. Really, if it was just one person that got their stuff, you would tell them because you'd want them to know. Well, it's no different. It's just you're doing that at scale.

AUBREY: Yeah, that's absolutely right. All right. And there's many cases for that. But honestly, also, we're in the world now where, when you actually share, the more you share... I think Elon Musk, not a perfect guy. But he set a great example with giving away the Tesla patents. Let it out there, trust. Show your cards. Play face up. There's a quote that I love from Chögyam Trungpa. The warrior's decency is the absence of strategy. There's just something beautiful about, here's my cards, everybody see them?

JASON: Did you notice, as soon as he did that, everybody was here's what his ulterior motive is. Or maybe not. Maybe he just wants the world to be a better place. And he already knows that he has such a lead that it doesn't matter. Let's think abundantly. 

AUBREY: Yeah, exactly. Double down on your wins, number 16. So, this was something I think we could have done a hell of a lot better job of. Because we launched Alpha Brain, smash hit. It took us five years or something to launch Alpha Brain Instant, which is just a different form factor, the same thing. We did the hard work, we made the formula, we knew it worked, we knew people loved it. And then we came up with the instant powder. And then we're still... And we just came out with New Mood. And, so, that's 10 years after the first one. This is our next best seller. Continuing on the path of the wins, different form factors, different flavors, different sizes, really going deep, that's where you can be a lot more lucrative. And if I was going to go back and say, "Man, how could I have done this thing better?" That would have been a clear strategic choice to go way deeper. Oh, wow. Alpha Brain's crushing. Alright, we're going to have Alpha Brain drinks, Alpha Brain shots, Alpha Brain powders, Alpha Brain 30, 60, 90, 120 lifetime supply. We're going to have it all. You got the full suite, it's going to have all the flavors, it's going to have all the different ways that you could consume Alpha Brain, and we're going to go deep.

JASON: The old saying, like going to the well, almost it's a risk to go to the well. But in real life, you go to the well until there's no more water. You don't just start digging more wells, because you don't have any more water if you do that, right? And I look at that the same way. Now we're smarter about it. But getting people Alpha Brain, New Mood, Shroom Tech, even Total Human in the size, capacity, flavor, modality that they want it is far more important than coming up with a million new ideas. I think it took us a long time to get smarter about that. But at the same time, we came up with a lot of good ideas in the interim. So now we get to benefit from both. But I think the accelerator earlier would have been those line extensions-

AUBREY: That  would have been the gas pedal. That would have been the gas pedal earlier. We're in a beautiful spot now because there's still a lot of opportunity. I mean, there's a whole brain shot industry nootropic, ready-to-drink shot industry--

JASON: We haven't even gotten there yet. 

AUBREY: We haven't even gotten there yet, and we have the top regarded nootropic in the world. And that's a beautiful--

JASON: And it's only been in capsules this whole time. It's really crazy. 

AUBREY: Yeah. So, that's something that I think is important. But, we were going after this total human optimization. But it's also tracking yourself. There was more excitement in creating something new than really offering the varied subtle ways, different ways to solve the same problem. I wanted to solve a new problem. Oh, what's a new problem? Oh, what's a new problem I can solve? What's this brand new thing? There was an energy in that for me as a human that I liked, and so Onnit suffered from my own bias. 

JASON: Creators gonna create.

AUBREY: Creators wanting to create. "Ooh, I got this whole new idea. Let's go." And so, it's just tempering yourself.

JASON: Yeah. Yeah. Matching your... Connecting with the business where you fit. 

AUBREY: Yeah, totally. All right. Believe your future is real now. Number 17. 

JASON: We talked about some of this already. 

AUBREY: So in that one, I think really, the thing that I want to harp on the most here is, at the beginning, equity is super cheap. Because you think that a situation like we're in now, where there's going to be a sale may come but it's so far away, and it's not even real. So you're like, you want some equity? Sweet, I got some. You're going to help out, great. Well, equity is cheaper than cash because I don't have much cash, but I got this thing. And now there's literal millionaires that are going to be made. Because it was super early. 

JASON: They were just around at the right time. 

AUBREY: They were the first pro athlete or the first Hollywood star, the first this that came up and I was like, you want to promote Onnit? Sweet. I don't really have any cash but I got this equity. And they're like, "Yeah, okay." But if I really would have believed, I would have been like, yeah, this is one day going to be worth a lot. Maybe I would have still given some equity but the size would have been way smaller, or I would have waited till I had cash or I would... I would have just done things a little differently. I'm not upset. I love our cap table, I love the way that things have been spread, there's enough to go around. But nonetheless, it is like one of those things. I didn't really, really believe it. I always felt like it could but it was so far away, it's hard to imagine that it's real.

JASON: And you had to make shit happen right now back then. And so, it still was probably a good idea. But, knowing that the pond's going to get bigger, and so are the fish might be a tough thing to remember at the time, but it is true. If it's going to work anyway, right? Because I don't think any of the moves that you made, they were probably determined exactly where we got... Certainly some of those things helped us along the way. But outside of like the Bodi and Joe moves, they might have been a little bit of a push. But with the value of what their equity is now, I'm not sure it matches up. But either way, you can take pride that in their reciprocal relationship, you're definitely going to put a bigger deposit in.

AUBREY: No doubt. And that is a beautiful part of this. This is like a great way. Everybody who's backed this and supported in all the different ways, and people who have come in biting off little chunks when we needed a little cash or I needed a little cash, and all of these little things, with the transaction, all of that gets redeemed in a way, where the reciprocity flows back in abundance. And that's just beautiful. I take great, great great joy in that.

JASON: That's the most beautiful thing about this whole thing is we're... And I think that's one of the reasons that I wanted to have this conversation too, is we're getting to... It's not the end of anything, but it might be the end of this rotation, this cycle of things. And I think it's just really beautiful to look back on that because it's promises made promises kept all the way through. I can't think of one thing that you did through this whole thing where you didn't keep a promise. This is the culmination of that. That's really cool.

AUBREY: Yeah, yeah, no doubt. Number 18, laugh at yourself. So, I think this is really important. You can't take yourself too seriously. There's nothing that's more of a turnoff than that. And I remember, when Onnit was really starting to get some traction and our gym was hot, and it's still super-hot or whatever. But there was just this energy of us being new onto the scene. And I remember there was this guy who would go around town, and he would wear an Offit T-shirt.

JASON: Oh, yeah, that's right. I forgot about that guy. He would just troll us in real life for some reason. Not even online, offline. Who does that? I forgot about that guy.

AUBREY: At that time, I think a lot of us took it kind of serious. I probably took it the least serious. I thought that's kind of funny. But there was a lot of people who were super passionate, and I love that. But, like wanted to fight him. "We can kick his ass." Don't kick his ass. It's okay. It's okay that he's taken that shot at us in that way. 

JASON: I remember at the time, people thought, what if it catches on? And it's like, why would it catch on? He's doing the weirdest thing possible.

AUBREY: Yeah, but then there's all kinds of other jokes that have been made like, if we come up with a dog care line, we'ld call it Dogonnit. If we came up with--

JASON: I still think that was a good idea. I still have that in trademark. So no one can take that.

AUBREY: Yeah, I mean, there's just a million different things that have come up that have been a chance to laugh at ourselves. 

JASON: Even the Aubrey cult stuff. Like you never took that too seriously. And there was no reason to. But you could have. Because it was in some ways kind of a shot.

AUBREY: Yeah. And those opportunities to just have that grace and sense of humor, and laugh at it, when instead of making it a big deal and getting your ego and pride all involved. And another thing is too, is we aligned with people who were willing to do the same. I think my favorite Black Friday campaign was the one we did with Lance Armstrong.

JASON: Still the best. I still can't believe he did it. He didn't even hesitate. 

AUBREY: It was about his missing testicle, and he was searching everywhere for his missing ball. That was so funny. It's such a beautiful example of someone who's willing to laugh at themselves. I know that a lot of people have a lot of things about Lance from his past and all good. But at that moment, at that time, the man he is there, was willing to really laugh at himself. And that's beautiful. To have that sense of humor at that moment is important.

JASON: There's a guy that like we were talking about Bode training until he tried to kill himself. Lance would do the same thing. That guy had no shortage of taking himself and what he did super seriously, still willing to laugh at himself in that capacity. I thought that was good. It's really incredible the pivot he's been able to make.

AUBREY: Yeah, yeah. And, people like to hold people to... There's some things that are unforgivable. Okay, if you want to hold that judgment and be the judge, I'm not going to argue with you. Gut nonetheless, but having have seen him there versus where he was in the thick of it, it's so hard to know what any of us would do in anybody else's shoes. As I digress into that-

JASON: Well, yeah, I was going to go down that road, too. But yeah.

AUBREY: It's the example of when you have the chance, even if you have taken yourself super seriously, which is the point here. At some point, he took himself so seriously, and he took his wind so... And all of these things so seriously, and had this righteous indignation. Even if you have been that, to then later be able to laugh at yourself and like to be able to... And I've seen him offer to make fun of himself and other different ideas. That's the way. If you make a mistake, especially, or if something happens, like laugh at yourself. Make a joke, allow everybody to join in on the laugh rather than to laugh quietly, behind your back. Be inclusive with the laughter, laugh with them, rather than forcing them to laugh at you in the shadows. Like that's the way.

JASON: Yeah, especially in a capacity like you were in early on, where really even till to now, where you not only represent you as a human, you represent something much larger. You not only represent Onnit as a business, even larger than that, you represent everything you stand for. And because your platform has gotten bigger, you have a personal responsibility now that's larger than you. And letting people in on the laughter and make the joke part of the message is a really crucial part of that if you are going to stand on that stage.

AUBREY: Yeah, no doubt. All right, number 19. Choose partners, like you choose a spouse. Now, I've seen so many people get this really, really twisted, because you get in deep with a partner. And that is your partner in this business, forever and ever. Amen. Unless you make some different contractual deal where you buy them out. I see it all the time in startups. You get a partner that you think is going to do this one thing, and doesn't really pan out, but they're still a fucking partner. They still got that equity and they still hold it. And that's a weight that'll suck the life right out of the business, because then you're working your ass off for a pie that you're sharing that they're not contributing to, and the reciprocity is all off. The whole cycle goes to hell.

JASON: Yeah.

AUBREY: The whole cycle goes to hell. And then you have to find a bunch more money just to buy them out, which is a massive waste of capital, and a massive waste of resources if you do that. And it can end up in legal battles, it can end up in this. So it's not a flippant thing to have a partner in your business. It can kill it, it can destroy the whole thing, the entity may die if you choose the wrong thing. Choose that with the care that you would choose a wife or a husband.

JASON: We talked about this in several different ways. But when you talk about a partner, that just scares me in general. Because really, just like we've talked about reciprocity, you're talking about an exchange of value. The reason people get in partnerships is they get in partnerships with somebody they think is bringing something that they're not. Whether it be the money, or the talent, or the work ethic, or whatever it is. And if they don't live up to whatever part of that is, they still own that equity. And now you're screwed, because now you not only don't have that, but now you have to either recoup it, make up for whatever deficiency they've left behind. And that happens a lot. And so generally, you hear people say, just don't get into partnerships. But a lot of times you don't have the choice, because you really are missing half of that. And a lot of times it's the money half of it. But kind of like you talk about being thoughtful and frugal with that equity, you need to do that same thing with your partner. And, you should make sure that you've explored every route to get that without giving up the equity before you even enter into a partnership.

AUBREY: Yeah, 100%. And it actually goes to the second one. So, take a lot of time choosing your partner, but when you get there, transition, or any kind of any kind of situation, transition from the handshakes to the paperwork quickly. 

JASON: Yep. 

AUBREY: Because as much as you may feel like you're aligned, when money gets involved and the details get involved, it's nice to just have something to fall back on. If you really are in alignment, you can always modify that deal. You know what I mean? And ultimately, I had to have that conversation with Joe. And this is one of the beautiful moments in the company where the way that the deal was structured, the paperwork that we had, it was... The way that things were going, Joe was actually earning more than I was at that point.

JASON: By a significant margin.

AUBREY: By a good margin.  And, I was like, fuck, we didn't anticipate that this was the way because of the paperwork that it was going to go. But because of our relationship, I just went to him and I was like, "Hey, man, this is the way the numbers are shaking out. What if we just say, look, we'll just take whatever I'm earning, we'll chop it in half, we'll chop it straight down the middle." And he didn't even think about it. Despite the paperwork, he had every right. And he would have continued to make more money than I did. But he was like, "Yeah, man, that sounds fair. That sounds good."

JASON: It was just done. 

AUBREY: It was done. It was just done like that. 

JASON: You had the right partner. 

AUBREY: I had the right partner. And so the paperwork didn't actually hold anything up. The paperwork didn't lock us in because it was the right partner. So, both of those, choose your partners like you choose a spouse, 19 and 20, transition from handshakes to paperwork quickly, they both work hand in hand because you need both.

JASON: You do need both, because it is nice... I mean paperwork saves friendships sometimes where you don't have to get in an argument at all. "What's it say on the paper?" But conversely, if that's not going to work out, if you have the right partner, like you said, it doesn't matter anyway. You can usurp the paperwork and create new paperwork.

AUBREY: Yep, absolutely. All right, number 21. Know when to use the velvet gloves and when to use the boxing gloves. So, in general, we've talked a lot about using the velvet gloves. Always taking care for people, taking the utmost most sensitivity, but there's some people who are trying to fight. There's some people who are out to fucking punch you. And when that happens, lace them up.

JASON: Yeah. You can't wear velvet gloves unless you're willing to put on the boxing gloves, because otherwise you get walked over. They need to know that they're in the closet. 

AUBREY: Yeah, exactly. 

JASON: Yeah. Because otherwise the velvet gloves are kind of meaningless. 

AUBREY: Yeah, you become a pushover. 

JASON: I'd add one other thing too. I think there's velvet gloves, there's boxing gloves, and then there's white gloves. And what I mean by white gloves is almost that, that sometimes you need to allow people to be wrong with dignity, and follow their lead, despite the fact that you really genuinely don't agree, even if they're not the person in charge. Because some lessons are best learned in that way. And so, if you're playing the long game with certain people from a leadership perspective, sometimes I do take a white glove approach and let people try something that I think is not going to work. Because I think there's a bigger lesson involved. But when you're in a disciplinary situation, you only have that choice between the velvet gloves or the boxing gloves. Because there needs to be a lesson learned right then. And you can teach it with love, but if somebody comes with boxing gloves, you're not going to win that fight with velvet.

AUBREY: Yeah. I mean, and it could be a legal action, it could be something whatever else. There's a time to fight, there's a time to know when someone is being aggressive and potentially even violent in their actions. Not literally, but proverbially, and energetically I should say. At that point, they've got to know that you're willing to fight. It's absolutely important that you're not just going to lay down, because otherwise, that becomes the energy. That doesn't work. 

JASON: Ultimately, like you use the velvet gloves more often, you want people to be more... They would be more afraid to disappoint you, then have you yell at them. And I think that's the most important thing, but you still--

AUBREY: And even yell at them is absolutely the wrong, because there's almost no cause for that. Think of the greatest fighters. They're not the ones that are yelling before the ring. They're not the ones that are pounding on themselves. They're just staring at you like, I will fucking destroy you, and--

JASON: Yeah, Mike Tyson style.

AUBREY: Watch me. Watch me destroy you. All of the great champions have that same way. I mean, you can then maybe come up with a couple of examples where that wasn't the case. But anger is not a warrior's friend. When you're yelling, it's a sign of insecurity. It's a sign that you don't trust your authority. It's putting out a signal, "I have to be this aggressive, or you won't take me seriously." Like Francis Ngannou just won the Heavyweight Championship, and his calmness is what everybody was talking about, because that's what made him so dangerous. He was just calm, and measured--

JASON: In the moment.

AUBREY: And just right there. That's what was scary. Fedor Emelianenko, it's like, oh, wow.

JASON: He just puts his hand up. 

AUBREY: Yeah, yeah. And it's that thing as a leader where you can just look at someone like, really? And they just see, feel the strength. Like uh-uh, it's this energetic uh-uh. We are not going there. Rather than having to yell, or rather than having to outwardly express it, it's just like, no, this is it. And that's the place you always want to be at.

JASON: I never heard you yell. I can't think of one time that--

AUBREY: Well, I did one time, and that time was--

JASON: When somebody interrupted a podcast. 

AUBREY: Yeah, I was filming a promotional video. It was a long one. It was a long, long video. And we didn't have like a good video team that could cut it and do different stuff. 

JASON: So, you needed to nail it. 

AUBREY: I needed to nail it. And, there was these knocks, soft knock on my office door. It wasn't in this office, it was in the office before this office, so seven years ago, something like that. How long have we been in this office? Six years?

JASON: 2013. 

AUBREY: Okay, so it must have been 2012. So, nine years ago. Fuck, a long time ago. So nine years ago, and a soft knock on the door, and I was like, "I can ignore that. Video will hardly pick it up." Medium knock on the door. I was like, "Okay, that's a little abrasive." And then bigger knock on the door. Bang, bang, bang. And I was like, "WHAT? WHAT DO YOU WANT?" It was just an outburst, right? Because somehow the knocking low and my tolerance, and then the medium, and me trying to nail it and the pressure of the situation.

JASON: You could feel it, yeah. 

AUBREY: And then the final aggressive knock that I couldn't ignore anymore. And then I heard, "Sorry." And I was like, oh, man, and I went outside. And she was crying. Fuck, it still bothers me to think about that, and probably should... It's a good reminder for when I have kids, but she was the sweetest front desk, like person handling it. And she didn't know, she didn't know what I was doing. And there was somebody there who needed to talk to me or see me, or something like that. And she was just crying in her desk. And I was like--

JASON: Never again.

AUBREY: Never again. Never again. I mean, it made a big impact. It's funny, I mean, it's not that I still hold that against myself. But it's just, it's a recognition of with the authority that we have as leaders, we have so much power and so much ability to harm if we're not careful, if we're erratic, and if we're not mindful of ourselves, we can really, really hurt people who don't deserve to be hurt. And, we can also really help people. And just to really be mindful of that. Yeah, I'll never forget that lesson.

JASON: Words matter, right? 

AUBREY: Yeah, and the energy behind the words.

JASON: Words matter how they said, the energy, the intent. Sometimes I still find myself underestimating people wanting to hear what I think about things, and my responsibility to step up and talk about things. Like when Black Lives Matter started, it was the murder of George Floyd, that whole weekend after that video came out, or, more recently, with the anti-Asian hate and things, people want to hear what their leaders internally feel about that. And, I needed to be reminded of that. And I still feel bad about that, that I needed Keith to call me and say, hey, you need to put something out here. And I felt so stupid that it didn't occur to me that anybody cared what I thought. But then it was such a good reminder, because now I make sure that I'm having all those tough discussions at every opportunity. Because it not only gives an opportunity for people to rally around that, but it also opens the door for everybody to be a little bit higher version of themselves, because they're able to have an honest dialogue about tough stuff.

AUBREY: Yeah, I mean, they want to see the human, and it's a big responsibility. I know that in some of my social circles, even in, I'm in this amazing men's group. It's 24 people. I have inherently a lot of gravitas, and it's just my nature and also the position that I'm in. And there was an exercise where people kind of clear any energy that feels like it's been unexpressed. And there was four people who came up to me, were like, yeah, I just want to know how you feel about me. They were in some way just wanted that encouraging word like, yeah, I love you, man. But I hadn't said it. They didn't say I felt some weird energy, but they just needed to hear it because they looked up to me. It was mostly people who looked up to me in some way. And me, just sharing that word, not just giving them a hug, like, hey, man, what's up? Blah, blah, blah. But being like, "Hey, man, I see you. I love you, brother. Thanks for doing what you do."

JASON: Great. 

AUBREY: That matters a lot. I also need to be reminded of that. And even somebody that you're in proximity with, sometimes just taking the time. You never know. And I'll hear messages back. Like, I saved that one email that you sent me that one time, or you wrote me that thing and I just... I printed that out, and I have that in my desk. And it was like, oh, shit, I don't even remember that. But it was important. And so, just recognizing it as you rise in those positions, your gravity is more intense. So, everything that you do is going to be felt to an even greater degree.

JASON: And everybody's always watching. 

AUBREY: That's true, too. Yeah, everybody's always watching. All right, I'm calling an inaudible on number 22. Because there's something I think that's really important. Number 22, knowing to go all in. There was one obviously key moment that was a defining moment for Onnit. And that was, at the beginning, because nootropics were a new thing, and because there's a lot of people who were skeptical, there was a lot of people saying that our supplements don't work, snake oil this, blah, blah, blah, all this, supplements don't work. They were categorically saying vitamins and supplements don't work.

JASON: Yeah, it wasn't just brain vitamins. It was all supplements.

AUBREY: All supplements, all vitamins, it doesn't work, right? And we knew at that point, we could either just ignore it, but we really believed in our product. So I went out to one of the top labs, Boston Center for Memory. And said, I want you guys to put together a randomized, double-blind clinical trial to test the efficacy of Alpha Brain. And they came to us, and they said, "Listen, we will do this, but we want you to know that we've done 11 of these in a row. And the last 11 of these that we did," because they test both pharmaceuticals and nutraceuticals. "The last 11 that we did showed no statistical significance, and we published all of them. And we will publish this, if it doesn't work." And that's that moment where you're like, wow, if we actually put this through scientific rigor, and it comes back with nothing, then that is going to be potentially the thing that unwinds the whole company.

JASON: And at the time, Alpha Brain attributed what percentage of the revenue? 60%?

AUBREY: An enormous amount. And also, it was inexorably tied to the cloud of the company and the cloud of the industry to a certain degree. So at that point, though, if we were able to validate that--

JASON: Do you believe?

AUBREY: Do you believe and are you willing to go all in? Are you willing to bet it all? Are you willing to back what you know to be true? And trust that the science, and trust that it will all pan out? 

JASON: That's tough, because even though you knew it worked, you take it, you could feel it, all of those things, you don't know these researchers, you don't know the people that are going through it, you don't know their testing methods. And even when you do, it's still so out of your control that it's scary. It was probably the scariest thing that you've ever done in this company.

AUBREY: It was incredibly intense. And, I have to credit Joe a lot too, because he was all in for that. He was all in. I think because of his reach and whatever, I think the stakes were lower for him. He cared about Onnit, but it wasn't... This was my entire livelihood at that point. There is nothing else going. I had a small little podcast, Warrior Poet Project at that point. But there's nothing else going, no other revenue sources, nothing. This was it. This was everything. I'd put everything into this.

JASON: You were betting the farm. You were really going all in. 

AUBREY: Truly, truly betting the farm. And it paid off. I mean, we got those results back, and it showed statistical significance. We backed it up again with a subsequent study. And at that point, it was like--

JASON: It changed everything.

AUBREY: It changed everything. There's still people who still will lob some insults or whatever. But we know and everybody else knows that we put it through the gold standard. We put it through the randomized, double-blind clinical trial.

JASON: You don't hear people say supplements don't work anymore. I think most people have gotten past that. But you still hear it a little bit. But, nootropics at that time, like we talked about, it wasn't even a word that people knew. And Alpha Brain broke through that. I honestly think that that study opened up nootropics for the industry. I don't know if the industry would be there if it wasn't for that. Because once that came out, a lot of copycats started showing up. And initially, they were Alpha Brain copycats. But then people started getting smarter at mushrooms and other things, and started coming up with nuanced takes on brain health. And that was awesome. More of that.

AUBREY: Yeah, totally. Totally. Yeah, that was just one of those all in moments. You might be faced with that, where it's like, do you really believe? Are you willing to lay everything on the line? And sometimes that's the right play.

JASON: I mean, you almost want to say if the answer is I don't know or no, then are you in the right business? 

AUBREY: Yeah, exactly. 

JASON: I don't mean to overstate it for anybody listening, but boy, you better believe.

AUBREY: Yeah, and you hear these stories from a lot of different... Mortgaged their house for the second time, put everything in, borrowed from every last family member because they really just believed, they really knew, if we just get past this one moment, we'll make it. There's probably a lot of stories where people made that bet, and it didn't work. I mean, that's the nature of it. It is a risk. And that's the nature of when you go all in in poker unless you have what's called the nuts, which is the hand that nobody can beat. But that's not the case in entrepreneurship. You just have, I believe in my hand, I believe in what I have. And here's a sign of my belief. I'm going all in. 

JASON: And don't you think, that's one of those things where you almost have to go all in. Because otherwise the rest of your life, you're going to wonder.

AUBREY: Yeah, totally. 

JASON: Like, what if I would have? Even if you lose, if you're willing to make that bet, that's an entrepreneurial move. You gotta be willing to bet on yourself. 

AUBREY: Yeah, you can't play with that. You can't play with fear. You gotta play with that confidence. You gotta play with courage. 

JASON: Yeah, that's a good one. That's a good one.

AUBREY: And last, probably the most important thing that I can share is enjoy the fucking journey. Enjoy the journey, number 23. The only real regret that I could possibly have is, man, I could have enjoyed it more. If I would have just known that I was going to end up here, even if I didn't know, you don't ever know, right? But so many times, I was just in stress and despair and concern and anxiety, and just challenged by... And limiting myself from enjoying it, because I was afraid of the disappointment. This is a big one for me. Like, don't get too happy. Because if you get too happy, and this doesn't work, you're going to be devastated. Which is the antithesis of being the warrior poet, which is just living with the fullest joyful expression of what's going on. Not foolishness, not the thing that takes your eye off, but just the enjoyment of the present. It's not like we made it to here and all of a sudden, I'm fucking happy. 

JASON: That's right. 

AUBREY: There was no destination, the whole thing is just a journey. So in every step, could I have enjoyed it a little more? And the answer is yes. Of course, I didn't know. And if I would have been able to, I would have but nonetheless, looking back, if I could instill something magically, it wouldn't be chart the course differently. It would be, man, young Aubrey, just enjoy this more, son.

JASON: It's like that message that everybody wishes they could give themselves back in time. It's just like, it's going to be okay. That gets emotional even when I say it. It's going to be okay. Because that takes you back to that time that I was sitting in my driveway, having that panic attack. And if you came up to me, and you're like, "Enjoy the journey," I would have been like, "Fuck you!" But really, when I think about those seven years, I look back on the time that I've been here, it has been the most beautiful time in my life. And I've learned and grown so much. And all the growth came from those times. I'm a battle hardened business veteran at this point. And that all came from a lot of that. And, I do, I can think back to several times where I did stop and had that Ferris Bueller moment, where I was like, take a look around, so you don't forget it. And those moments just are really beautiful for me, and they're very simplistic. They were standing outside the food truck, or doing hashtag lunch bag, really kind of moments that you probably wouldn't remember, except that I made a point to stop and remember those. And, everybody should do that. Because you're getting through this one way or the other, right? And when you do, you're going to look back and you're going to be so thankful for even the rough stuff. But, definitely the beautiful stuff. And there has been far more beautiful than tough.

AUBREY: No doubt, no doubt. 100%. Well, here we are at another... This is the completion of a cycle. And it has been a beautiful ride. Even though I say I wish I would have enjoyed it more, it was still pretty fucking awesome.

JASON: It's amazing. 

AUBREY: It was awesome. I mean, so many amazing moments, so many amazing people, and, and people we've touched, and just experiences we've had. So, just the utmost gratitude to you for being here with me in this, pretty much this whole thing. 

JASON: And to you too. You've been an inspiration, a mentor, and you've given me opportunities I don't know if I would have received anywhere else. And I'll be forever indebted in a reciprocal relationship for that. I have a ton of gratitude for it. 

AUBREY: Yeah, thank you, brother. And, I would say that I have no interest in running a business again, but it looks like as a consequence of this deal, and the way things are going to shake out, I'm going to acquire Black Swan Yoga, which was the only other thing that we had at Onnit that didn't carry the Onnit brand, because it had such a strong brand. Donation based yoga, four studios here in Austin, and extending out, Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, looking to spread around. And it's just a beautiful example of reciprocity in action. It's donation based yoga, and it's flourishing. Six-time Best Yoga, voted Best yoga in Austin. Really giving both the instructors the freedom and the ability to share their gift, and also the people to respond with the amount that they're giving. So, it's a beautiful idea, and it's a beautiful execution on that idea. And I'm certainly going to hire a hell of a team because I got a lot of stuff going on. But I am really passionate about what that can bring to the world as well.

JASON: It's really magical. The purchase of Black Swan Yoga was the very first thing that I did when I got here. Very first thing. And we completed it in November 21, 2014. And here is a business that's going to be the first business of any kind in human history to derive the largest part of its revenue from donations, and it's going to be a nationwide yoga chain. It's really a magical business that has been created. And, no doubt whatever you decide to do with it, it's going to have one hell of a run, because it deserves it.

AUBREY: Yeah, no doubt. No doubt. Life evolves, people evolve, things evolve.

JASON: Another cycle. 

AUBREY: Yeah, just really grateful to be here. 

JASON: Amen. 

AUBREY: All right. Thank you so much, everybody for tuning in. Love you guys. Thank you, Brian. Peace.

Thanks for checking out this video. For more like it, please subscribe to my channel. And of course, the Aubrey Marcus Podcast with new episodes every single week. And, follow me on Instagram at @AubreyMarcus. Thank you so much.